I Need Help Choosing A Nib (Both Size And Style)

[Blackened Justice]

Ok, so throughout my handwriting life, I have always found that something was wrong with the way my handwriting looked. Now I seem to have reached some understanding of what the problem may be: I think my line width/letter size ratio is screwed up. I have relatively medium-large handwriting, and I've used cheap BIC Crystal ballpoints, and other ballpoints all my life. I think that the lines those produce are too fine for my not so small handwriting.

 

All of the fountain pens I have have what I perceive as being fine nibs (most of them I found lying around the house, so I have no idea whether they would actually be classified as such), with my eyedropper-converted Platinum Preppy being slightly wider than the rest. I'm looking into buying a Pelikan M215, but I'm unsure whether to actually take the risk and get a medium or broad nib... Any ideal line width/letter size ration that I should? I've read that regarding italic writing, the letter height should be 5 times the width of the fat line. How does that apply in regular, round-nib writing?

 

Also, I really like the results that I've seen of handwriting with crisp and cursive italic nibs, and to a lesser extent, stub nibs. Would the jump from a standard round nib to a stub or cursive italic be that big? I've read that crisp italics tend to dig into the paper, and so are not so well suited for beginners. Should I just buy a calligraphy dip pen set, like Brause's, and try out chisel-ground nib before I make any decision?

 

Thank you,

Cheers

[Bronze]

- The jump to a stub nib should be both easy and very enjoyable! I highly recommend a stub nib. They are very easy to use and you should have little or no trouble adjusting. An excellent introduction to line variation. I was just writing in my journal with a 0.8 mm custom stub that was done by Richard Binder. It's wonderful. From what you said about your handwriting a similarly sized stub might be a great fit for you. Wide enough to accomodate medium/large handwriting and make things interesting, while still practical.

[Bo Bo Olson]

IMO you need a broad, a medium and a fine nib in regular flex to start with.

 

The ink tone is different with different widths in shading inks.

 

MB toffee a good brown shading ink gave me.

Fine was light with dark trails.

Medium was 50-50.

Broad was dark with light trails.

 

And Paper is a huge difference.

Which is why I put paper ahead when I say.

 

Nib width...is less than many make out.

Writing my seven letter last name.

EF is 1/2 letter smaller than Fine.

Fine is 1/2 letter smaller than Medium.

Medium is 1/2 letter smaller than Broad.

 

You can always make your lines wider or narrower using the templates listed below...if You find your broad needs a wider line or your fine a narrower one...or even your medium needs a medium line. :roflmho:

 

 

 

Writing is 1/3 nib width and flex, 1/3 paper and 1/3 ink.

 

I think you can wait for a stub, until you have your basic set of nibs.

Then you can decide...how wide a stub do I need.

 

For the price of a couple of cans of coke you can buy your self good to better paper in a 500 page ream. Paper is not the place to cheap out.

 

 

With these templates you can make your lines wide, medium or narrow to please your self.

 

Incompetech writing template for making lines in paper.

 

D*I*Y Planner templates.

 

 

I spent 50 years holding a fountain pen wrong.

Grip

 

"Tripod grip" thread here: http://www.fountainp...gular-pen-hold/

 

In advanced search

holgalee…Death….writing instruments

 

That is a second large thread on how to hold a fountain pen.

 

 

Remember above all things...writing with a fountain pen is fun...and not fattening, and legal.

 

 

Hurry slowly...take a couple of weeks to read lots of stuff before parting with the scratch.

 

First go here...then the stuff will make a bit of sense.

 

It is the basics of fountain pens, nibs, filling systems and good advice on inks....and Some great looking old pens..used as examples.

 

www.richardspens.com/

Edited February 14, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[Blackened Justice]

Stub or not, I still need to have an idea of what size to get... Should I should jump and get a B? Or play it a bit safer and get an M? Can Pelikan change nibs if I send them the pen?

[ConnallMac]

- The jump to a stub nib should be both easy and very enjoyable! I highly recommend a stub nib. They are very easy to use and you should have little or no trouble adjusting. An excellent introduction to line variation. I was just writing in my journal with a 0.8 mm custom stub that was done by Richard Binder. It's wonderful. From what you said about your handwriting a similarly sized stub might be a great fit for you. Wide enough to accomodate medium/large handwriting and make things interesting, while still practical.

 

+1 to this. The thing to remember is that you can swap Pelikan nibs in and out yourself, so if you find you don't like a medium you can always go up to a broad. Sometimes you can even find one to swap in the Wanted To Trade forum here, from folks who are heading in the opposite direction. I would order your M215 from Richard Binder and choose to have him make it into a stub. I just got one with at 0.4mm Stub last week and I LOVE it! It's a nice compliment to the 0.6mm stub that I purchased from him several years ago. If you're not sure about whether to go with a stub or italic I would recommend going to a pen show and trying out several of Mr. Binder's stubs and italics and see what you like; but I'm pretty sure that no matter which one you buy from him you would be able to trade or sell it here if you don't like it.

[yachtsilverswan]

To estimate the line width (that's LINE width, not nib width) that looks classically proportionate for your size handwriting, consider these factors and try this calculation:

 

Qualitatively, the two greatest factors influencing nib width choice are:

#1. The size of your handwriting - smaller handwriting requires a finer nib to avoid filling in loops, as in the letters e, p, a, b.

#2. Personal preference for a bolder look to handwriting requires a broader nib. Very fine nibs can often make handwriting seem more tentative.

 

Quantitatively, my standard recommendation for line width (not nib width) to produce classically proportionate handwriting:

1. In your routine handwriting style and size, write out the lower case miniscules (letters without ascenders or descenders): a,c,e,m,n,o,r,s,u,v,x

2. Carefully measure the height of each miniscule in millimeters (a magnifying glass and micrometer may be required for the greatest accuracy)

3. Calculate the average height in millimeters for the series of miniscules

4. Divide the average miniscule height by 5 to get the line width in millimeters that should produce classically proportionate handwriting without filling in your loops

5. If you like a bolder look to your handwriting, add 0.2 mm to the final calculation; if you prefer a finer and lighter look then subtract 0.2 mm from the calculation

 

Remember, this calculation refers to "line width" and not to "nib width" because different nib shapes of the same width can produce different line widths.

 

Math and science guys often like very fine (XF or XXF) nibs because they better resolve the exponents and superscripts of formulae. But very very fine nibs can be more scratchy to use because the tip of the nib becomes like a needlepoint digging into the paper. Nibmeister Richard Binder has resurrected an older technique for grinding very fine nibs that are smoother - the Waverley Nib - read more on his website at www.richardspens.com under the Nibarama section. (no affiliation - just a fan)

 

Some Nibmeisters also sell new and reconditioned pens. On request (and usually without extra charge) the Nibmeister selling you the pen will test and tune the pen to be sure it writes perfectly.

 

Nibmeisters can also custom grind the nib of your new pen into a new shape. Regrinding a spherical nib tip into a horizontal ovoid produces wider downstrokes and narrower sidestrokes. The result on paper is significant line width variation, giving some visual texture and interest to handwriting, without any special effort and without any special writing technique. You can read more about Cursive Italic nibs and their near cousins the Stub nibs - and line width variation here: http://richardspens..../nib_beyond.htm (No affiliation - just a huge fan)

 

Here is my own writing sample with a few Cursive Italic nibs. Look at the difference in line width variation between the Pope Julius sample (a broad Cursive Italic) and the Waterman Edson sample (a spherical factory broad nib).

 

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr131/yachtsilverswan/PopeJuliusReviewScan002.jpg

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr131/yachtsilverswan/MB75thAnniLE149004.jpg

 

Hope this helps.

[Blackened Justice]

Well, I've just quickly measured my handwriting, and it's somewhere between 3 and 5 mm in height, depending on size constraints, such as line height. That means that ideal line width would be between 0.6 and 1 mm. You've mentioned that this does not translate into nib width, but how would I determine nib width, then? I guess that depends alot on paper and ink, so let's say I'll be writing on Clairefontaine or Rhodia paper, with some sort of Noodler's ink, HOD at the moment, or maybe some drier inks in the future, like Waterman or Pelikan Edelstein.

 

I really like the look of stuff written with stubs and cursive italics, but I don't if I would adapt to it or not. I guess the transition is fairly smooth, but is there anything I should know? Like, I should only do pull strokes and not push strokes, and stuff like that? I ask because when I see stroke charts for some scripts that require an italic nib, they often contain some letters that are done in what seems like too many strokes, constantly lifting the pen from the paper to do seriffs and stuff like that.

[Bronze]

Well, I've just quickly measured my handwriting, and it's somewhere between 3 and 5 mm in height, depending on size constraints, such as line height. That means that ideal line width would be between 0.6 and 1 mm. You've mentioned that this does not translate into nib width, but how would I determine nib width, then? I guess that depends alot on paper and ink, so let's say I'll be writing on Clairefontaine or Rhodia paper, with some sort of Noodler's ink, HOD at the moment, or maybe some drier inks in the future, like Waterman or Pelikan Edelstein.

 

I really like the look of stuff written with stubs and cursive italics, but I don't if I would adapt to it or not. I guess the transition is fairly smooth, but is there anything I should know? Like, I should only do pull strokes and not push strokes, and stuff like that? I ask because when I see stroke charts for some scripts that require an italic nib, they often contain some letters that are done in what seems like too many strokes, constantly lifting the pen from the paper to do seriffs and stuff like that.

 

 

- You really don't have to do anything different if you get a stub nib. If you are looking to produce a formal italic script, that is a craft by itself. Whether you choose to study and learn such a thing or continue with your old handwriting style, a stub will work great either way. I gave away two pens with stub nibs in the last few weeks to people never having used one before, one of them new to fountain pens in general, and they both loved it. Had no trouble at all adjusting.

 

With regards to nib size, I still think somewhere around 0.8 would be a good choice. This is not an exact science though (unless you are doing formal calligraphy work), but more about finding out what you enjoy writing with and what you enjoy looking at on the page.

[yachtsilverswan]

Well, I've just quickly measured my handwriting, and it's somewhere between 3 and 5 mm in height, depending on size constraints, such as line height. That means that ideal line width would be between 0.6 and 1 mm. You've mentioned that this does not translate into nib width, but how would I determine nib width, then? ...

 

...Like, I should only do pull strokes and not push strokes, and stuff like that?...

 

The height of your MINISCULES varies between 3mm and 5 mm? That's a lot of variation. Remember, miniscules are lower case letters without ascenders or descenders. Remember, you add up the height of your miniscules and then divide by the number of miniscules you measured - you AVERAGE the series.

 

You are quite correct that determining the LINE WIDTH of classically proportionate handwriting is different than determining nib width - and because different pen manufacturers craft their nibs in slightly different shapes (stock factory MB nibs in B and BB are ovoid rather than spherical for example). But you can use the line width calculation when testing a pen at a brick and mortar pen store - just measure the line laid down by the pen you are considering. And you can give your calculated ideal line width size to a Nibmeister when ordering a nib to be modified to a stub or to a Cursive Italic - Nibmeisters work in line width, not in F, M, and B nib widths - because it's line width the end user cares about. However, in general - a line width of 0.6 mm would be laid down by many Medium nibs; a line width of 1.0 mm would be laid down by many Broad nibs. I would recommend you try a Broad 0.9 mm Cursive Italic or Stub nib.

 

As reviewed in the link I posted, writing with either a Cursive Italic or a Stub requires no special technique - no skill, no extra effort. While it's true that using a Crisp Italic requires extra patience and skill (like using only downstrokes), that advice does not apply to Cursive Italics and Stubs. With a Stub or Cursive Italic, you just write as you write now.

 

Have fun.

Edited February 18, 2011 by yachtsilverswan

[Blackened Justice]

It varies between 3 and 4 mm usually, but depending on the line spacing and the speed that I'm writing at, it can go to 5mm under some circumstances. On Richard Binder's example page, what is the size of the lines? http://www.richardspens.com/?page=info/exemplaria.htm It would help me understand what I want.

[yachtsilverswan]

It varies between 3 and 4 mm usually, but depending on the line spacing and the speed that I'm writing at, it can go to 5mm under some circumstances. On Richard Binder's example page, what is the size of the lines? http://www.richardspens.com/?page=info/exemplaria.htm It would help me understand what I want.

 

On the page you linked, Mr. Binder labeled each writing sample with the style nib and the LINE width in millimeters, i.e. "Cursive Italic, 0.9 mm" shows a Cursive Italic style nib that writes a 0.9 mm vertical stroke on the page. For an actual size printable version, follow Mr. Binder's instructions:

 

"Each exemplar will appear in a pop-up window. These images were scanned at 1.5X actual size, but the size they appear on your screen depends on your monitor’s size and resolution setting. To download an actual-size printable version in PDF format (for Adobe Reader), right-click the download PDF version link for the exemplar you want to view. (Macintosh users control-click)"

[Blackened Justice]

But what kind of ruling is used in the samples? I'm sorry if line size didn't get the message across, but I wanted to know the spacing between the lines

[yachtsilverswan]

Don't know.

 

But you could print out the actual size writing sample, and measure them if you like,

[MikeF]

BJ,

 

where are you? Why don't you go to a pen shop and try a medium and a broad nib? In Lisboa you can probably get some help at Corte Inglês or at Companhia das Canetas at Colombo. In Oporto you also have Corte Inglês and there's also a nice pen shop at Norteshopping, I can't remember the name. Companhia das Canetas has Pelikan. Corte inglês does not have Pelikan anymore, I believe; they have now Montegrappa, which has factory stubs, although I doubt they have any stub available to try at the shop. Anyway, you can dip try some mediums and broads and see which size you like best.

 

Sharp italics are just for calligraphy purposes, they're not practical for everyday use. Cursive italics are meant to write in cursive, as you probably do, and as most people still write here, I believe. And they don't require any adaptation, you'll just write and love the result... As with a stub.

My most interesting nib is an Italic Fine from Conway-Stewart, and it makes my handwriting look quite more interesting - actually, bought from the writing desk: no taxes to pay, and a very nice service.

 

My minuscules (not sure if you can say that in english...) are about 2 to 4 mm, depending on the paper ruling and the purpose, and I usually prefer fine nibs.

[Blackened Justice]

BJ,

 

where are you? Why don't you go to a pen shop and try a medium and a broad nib? In Lisboa you can probably get some help at Corte Inglês or at Companhia das Canetas at Colombo. In Oporto you also have Corte Inglês and there's also a nice pen shop at Norteshopping, I can't remember the name. Companhia das Canetas has Pelikan. Corte inglês does not have Pelikan anymore, I believe; they have now Montegrappa, which has factory stubs, although I doubt they have any stub available to try at the shop. Anyway, you can dip try some mediums and broads and see which size you like best.

 

Sharp italics are just for calligraphy purposes, they're not practical for everyday use. Cursive italics are meant to write in cursive, as you probably do, and as most people still write here, I believe. And they don't require any adaptation, you'll just write and love the result... As with a stub.

My most interesting nib is an Italic Fine from Conway-Stewart, and it makes my handwriting look quite more interesting - actually, bought from the writing desk: no taxes to pay, and a very nice service.

 

My minuscules (not sure if you can say that in english...) are about 2 to 4 mm, depending on the paper ruling and the purpose, and I usually prefer fine nibs.

 

I'm in Lisboa, I've been to El Corte Inglês but they don't have Pelikans, as you've said. I might go to Colombo to try them out, are their prices nice?

 

Any store I should know about in the downtown (baixa, chiado, etc.)?

[MikeF]

Prices at Companhia das Canetas in Colombo are better than in Corte Inglês, though not the best you can find.

I don't recall any store downtown since Papelaria Fernandes closed down. If you're interested in an Aurora, check if there's anything left in Casa Havaneza, at Rua Garret. They were the importers of Aurora for Portugal but some time ago the importer changed, so Casa Havaneza decided to sold their stock. I got a couple of Auroras taking advantage of the situation, and one of them is now one of my favourite pens. I doubt there's anything interesting left but do check... either at Rua Garret and at the Havaneza in Colombo. I'm talking about 50% off...

 

Since you're so focused on pelikans, note that Pelikan have just come out with an edition of the M800 with a stub-italic nib, but it's a broad one (1.5mm).