Fraud Resistant?

[Truppi327]

Why is everybody talking about credit cards as an alternative to cheques ? There are debit cards too and person to person payments can be achieved by credit transfers too (give a call to your bank or use E-banking to transfer the amount to the person who you want to get the money): if there is a bank, then there should be an employee that could do this for you, but E-banking is possible I hope for the smallest town in the US, just have a connection on the internet. I know credit cards are expensive because of the fee the companies charge, but debit cards (like Maestro) are accepted world wide, no additional fees and actually cheaper for the bank then manually cashing cheques and the infrastructure to keep the astronomical amount of cheques for a few years somewhere in a warehouse. Payment by cheque still holds the possibility for tax officers to have a look at you and actually you have signed the paper, so I would pay cash if this is a reason !!!

 

There is a debate as to whether being fraud resistant is necessary for inks...

Because checks are the only things we use fraud resistant ink with...

Meh. I use my bulletproof inks on checks and just general writing. Fraud resistance is just a bonus, I like the overall durability of the inks against time, nature, and my clumsiness. I take notes in many places, on trains, outside, the theatre and lots of different things can happen with spills, rain, etc.

[mstone]

Why is everybody talking about credit cards as an alternative to cheques ?

 

Because the discussion is mostly about financial instruments in the US, where checks are much more prevalent than most of the world. Don't make the mistake of assuming that consumer financial transactions in one part of the world have anything to do with similar transactions in another part of the world, even if they are superficially similar. There are tremendous differences in the areas of consumer protection laws, fees, interoperability, etc. Like most areas of law there isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to do things, none of what exists was really planned, and every place in the world does some things well and some things really lousy. Most people are more comfortable with their own particular system's quirks and don't really want to exchange them wholesale for someone else's. Cherry picking only the good parts from each system is pretty much impossible, as politicians and lobbyists are involved.

 

There are debit cards too and person to person payments can be achieved by credit transfers too (give a call to your bank or use E-banking to transfer the amount to the person who you want to get the money): if there is a bank, then there should be an employee that could do this for you, but E-banking is possible I hope for the smallest town in the US, just have a connection on the internet.

 

Person to person transfers in e-banking applications aren't particularly common in the US. It's relatively easy/safe to do for someone at the same bank. At a different bank you've got two options. First, an ACH transfer, which is essentially a check, but online, and requires giving the person an ACH number--the thing at the bottom of the check--which opens you up to a type of bank fraud which is much worse than the paper check. (Note that the paper check opens you to ACH fraud also, which is why I try to avoid them. Cleaning up after you've been hit by that is a total nightmare.) The second option is a wire transfer, which has very little consumer protection (once the money is transferred, it is gone beyond recovery unless the other side decides to be nice), is extremely subject to fraud and is widely targeted by computer-based virus/botnets. There is no chance that I would enable wire transfers via e-banking on my accounts even though (or perhaps because) I do computer security for a living. (In general, consumers have to actually go to a bank, show ID, fill out paperwork, and pay a fee to perform a wire transfer.) The current state of affairs is lousy, and checks are no better or worse than any other options. Credit cards are the safest payment vehicle for consumers, but they have a massive overhead for small businesses which substantially reduce their competitiveness vs large corporations, and we all end up paying more because of it.

 

Edit: and no, there are vast areas of the US (limited in population, but really big) where you're not going to find much internet access. It would be politically impossible to cut off existing payment mechanisms in those areas in favor of an online-only replacement given the current state of technology.

 

I know credit cards are expensive because of the fee the companies charge, but debit cards (like Maestro) are accepted world wide, no additional fees

 

There is a fee for the merchant, and sometimes for the consumer depending on what you're doing with the debit card. If you use it as a credit card, the merchant has a credit card fee (which is a base plus percentage of the transaction, which really adds up). If you use it as a debit card, the merchant has a (much smaller) transaction fee, but the consumer may also have a transaction fee and definitely has greatly increased liability for fraudulent transactions. In my opinion, a consumer (at least in this country) would have to be nuts to use a debit card versus a credit card, given the much higher level of risk with no individual benefit.

 

and actually cheaper for the bank then manually cashing cheques and the infrastructure to keep the astronomical amount of cheques for a few years somewhere in a warehouse.

 

Nobody stores checks anymore in the US, they're scanned and processed electronically. At the point of sale if possible, and at the earliest facility in the chain that has the appropriate equipment if not. Note that makes most of the anti-fraud features of the checks a waste of time, because the clerk at the store isn't going to be squinting to check a watermark, and the physical check is destroyed.

Edited October 19, 2010 by mstone

[pharmacist]

@mstone,

 

thanks for the clarification about the US checking system. Actually in Europe cheques are very expensive and discouraged, favouring the debit and credit cards and pin-payments. Also with the standard IBAN/BIC-accounts every bank has its own unique code, so credit transfers are done automatically and very fast. This unified system makes interbanking payments fast and quick: so a Dutchman can pay the invoice sent by a German or French company using E-banking very easily, actually international payment from a dutch banking account to a german or french banking account. Actually cheque clearance for resellers in the EU-region are far more expensive than accepting payment with a pin-payment terminal, by which the amount is transferred immediately on his/her account, whereas cheques takes up to 7 working days for clearance. If I would pay a german invoice by sending a cheque to my german supplier, I have to pay postage to send the cheque and also my bank for the cheque at this cost me at least $20, which is quite considerable and the german bank from which my german supplier will get the money after cashing the cheque will charge my german supplier another fee. Using E-banking by internet and transferring the money from IBAN to IBAN account no additional fee (actually free) is charged: both me and my supplier and transferred within 1 or 2 working days.

 

I hope you can understand my I am wondering about the cheque system in the US.

[KCat]

....

I keep a check book in my car

...

 

The law here views leaving a cheque-book in your car as negligence, and if it is stolen you are liable for any fraudulent cheques drawn on your account.

 

I would seriously doubt it is considered negligence in North Carolina, or in any state of the Union. I will ask a lawyer friend for kicks and giggles on Wednesday. When it comes to theft, home invasion, auto related mischief and such, the law in the United States is very much in favor of the victim.

 

It's not considered "negligence" in Texas. What it is considered is probably not for mixed company. The law may be in favor of the victim, but the lawman will likely give you a, "what the [blank] were you thinking?" look.

[dcwaites]

In Aus, leaving anything tempting in plain view in a locked car will likely cause your case to be put at the bottom of the priority list by the local constabulary. You will also get the "What the .... were you bloody well thinking?" lecture, not just a look.

 

Certain things are illegal to leave in an unattended (locked or otherwise) car under any circumstances -- firearms, children and pets. These will all cop substantial fines, if not jail time.

 

Getting back to Fraud Resistant. If I were still working in a Wet Laboratory, I would certainly be using either a Bulletproof or nano Carbon ink for my notes. I would be comfortable knowing that any spills that didn't actually dissolve the notebook would leave the ink untouched. The properties of these inks that make them fraud resistant also make them ideal for lab use.

 

The problem with using Iron Gall inks in a lab is that any oxidising chemicals would bleach the ink out.

[mstone]

Actually cheque clearance for resellers in the EU-region are far more expensive than accepting payment with a pin-payment terminal, by which the amount is transferred immediately on his/her account, whereas cheques takes up to 7 working days for clearance. If I would pay a german invoice by sending a cheque to my german supplier, I have to pay postage to send the cheque and also my bank for the cheque at this cost me at least $20, which is quite considerable and the german bank from which my german supplier will get the money after cashing the cheque will charge my german supplier another fee.

 

Yes, it's very different. Here if it's a largish or techie company they'll scan and send the check themselves and get the funds next day. (You can even do this with an iPhone app.) Small/traditional businesses will take the check to their bank, still get funds usually next day. Generally no fees. As I said, it's an evolved system--kind of crazy, but fairly efficient for what it is. And since so much time/effort was put into optimizing the checking system in the US over the last 30-40 years, and it works relatively well, there has been much less incentive to do anything else (compared to other places where checks were a pain and people wanted any kind of alternative).

[WendyNC]

When the power grid goes down, those of us who then make our living as scribes will be able to make hay touting our use of fraud-resistant inks. Okay, I'm mostly kidding here, but that *is* part of my contingency plan.

[Possum Hill]

When the power grid goes down, those of us who then make our living as scribes will be able to make hay touting our use of fraud-resistant inks. Okay, I'm mostly kidding here, but that *is* part of my contingency plan.

 

Also we'll be able to read and write a cursive hand.

[Wilson Hines]

Just so you guys will know, I had to write a check today at a Historical Society event whereas the author took cash and checks for his books.

[tfwall]

Just so you guys will know, I had to write a check today at a Historical Society event whereas the author took cash and checks for his books.

 

And you were worried that he might change the amount, so fraud resistant ink saved the day?

Edited October 22, 2010 by Chemyst

[Wilson Hines]

Just so you guys will know, I had to write a check today at a Historical Society event whereas the author took cash and checks for his books.

 

And you were worried that he might change the amount, so fraud resistant ink saved that day?

 

No, not at all. There was some debate in this thread about "why do you even write checks anymore?" So, where I live I run into situations quite frequently where I need a check. That's all.

 

About the fraud stuff, I'm not too worried about fraud. I was wondering why people would buy the fraud resistant ink. I had that answered.

[tfwall]

Just so you guys will know, I had to write a check today at a Historical Society event whereas the author took cash and checks for his books.

 

And you were worried that he might change the amount, so fraud resistant ink saved that day?

 

No, not at all. There was some debate in this thread about "why do you even write checks anymore?" So, where I live I run into situations quite frequently where I need a check. That's all.

 

About the fraud stuff, I'm not too worried about fraud. I was wondering why people would buy the fraud resistant ink. I had that answered.

 

Ah, I see now.

 

Yes, it does kind of bring it all together: visiting a historical society and using an archaic writing instrument to fill out a similarly archaic financial instrument, all to purchase information conveyed by a dying medium. If only you had gone home by buggy after doing so! It would be perfect!

 

[Possum Hill]

Just so you guys will know, I had to write a check today at a Historical Society event whereas the author took cash and checks for his books.

Sounds like a good place to do some recruiting -- load up a vintage pen with Diamine Registrar's Ink and reel them in.

[riff raff]

Yes, the US is not like Japan, where you simply wave your cell phone at a vending machine to complete the transaction. Hell, I wrote three or four checks (not "cheques" ) this week, easy. Why would I put anything on a credit card if I didn't have to? That's just crazy talk. :blink:

[welch]

Of course, I can hardly think of a sort of fraud that "fraud resistant" ink would resist...

[WendyNC]

Bottom line for me is that it's water-resistant and fade resistant. The other stuff is just "cool factor" in my world.