Bay State Blue

[79spitfire]

As mentioned in another thread on Noodler's ink fears I stated I was going to find out. This is the first results of an un-scientific home brew test I came up with.

 

A week ago Saturday (7/24) I chopped up an old celluloid pen barrel that had been damaged due to too much heat while trying to separate it for parts. It is an old "Penman" brand pen in black celluloid. I had purchased the pen for the nib, which was a "Lucky Curve #2", it also has an incorrect plastic feed (can be determined by the casting lines and "sprue" on the flat end)

The parts were soaked in Bay State Blue, arguably the most evil ink ever, and distilled water as a control, BTW my tap water is not suitable due to it's high PH numbers.

 

The rest of the pen made a lovely conversion into a calligraphy pen using a "viewpoint" nib section... Quite nice actually, also if anyone is interested in the Lucky curve nib, I'm looking for a "Sheaffer Self-Filler #3" nib for an old gold flattop I have.. ur--ah back on subject....

 

2 bottles were taken with rubber stoppers (I had them) one was filled with plain old distilled water (From Wal Mart if it makes any difference..) and one pen section placed in, the other had Bay State Blue placed in, enough to cover the piece, as this stuff costs money! I placed them on the shelf above my computer and waited. It has now been 8 days so I pulled them out and examined them.

 

I was underwhelmed with the results.. But first the pics!

 

The parts:

 

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/79spitfire/pict0064.jpg

 

I ended up not using the syringe...

 

The Butchering

 

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/79spitfire/pict0066.jpg

 

Cut the old barrel section up and made two roughly identical pieces..

 

The "closeup"

 

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/79spitfire/pict0068.jpg

 

The piece in the bottle.

 

Today:

 

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/79spitfire/pict0072.jpg

 

The moment of truth, only seconds away...

 

Like I said I was underwhelmed, both pieces survived intact, other than the one which had been in the BSB being stained blue. No structural difference noticed at this time (If this changes I will post with pictures) Cleaning with water seems that it will remove the stains with little effort.

 

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/79spitfire/pict0073.jpg

 

So IMHO BAY STATE BLUE IS NOT EVIL, it's just ink. Ink with a very nice blue color. To be honest the plastic or celluloid or rubber other pens are made from may react differently, but I personally doubt it...

[eslemexe]

I loved this ink at the first time I use it, my Noodler's Piston Fill is dedicated to this pen, I don't think this one is going to eat me alive or something, but I'm a clean freak so maybe put this in a demonstrator is not a good thing to do

[AltecGreen]

Just dunking a piece of a pen into Noodler's ink is not really the right test to confirm whether Noodler's ink will melt a pen (the feed in particular).

 

My hypothesis is that the majority of pen materials when soaked in Noodler's ink will be perfectly fine although staining can be a severe problem on some materials. Try getting BSB off of the American Art Plastics ivory celluloid. That is to say, for most users, there will not be any problems with Noodler's other than staining or clogging.

 

If Noodler's was that unstable or corrosive, there would have been many reports of problems and we wouldn't have all the silly topics since it would have been verified long ago. If there is a problem, then it requires more than one component to the reaction. A much more rare unique set of conditions.

 

The chemistry is probably rather complex. Possible chemical reactions may require the additional chemical compounds (aka residue of inks from other manufacturers), oxygen, temperature, a catalyst (noble metals like gold, platinum, and rhodium make very good catalysts for reactions), and/or surface area (surface reaction rates may differ from bulk rates). Ink is composed of not only dyes and the base solvent but also a number of things like surfactants or antifungal compounds. Any combination of these can cause a problem when mixed together.

 

Here is a simple scenario. A user has a pen filled with a certain non-Noodler's ink. This pen is used for a while and the user let's the pen sit for a while. Ink residue builds up in the feed but not clog the pen. The user switches to Noodler's ink and flushes the pen. Dried ink residue may take some time to get out and even if the pen runs clear there maybe some residue stuck in the feed. Noodler's ink is filled. The solvents in the Noodler's breaks down the dried residue and introduces a new component to the Noodler's mixture. This new mixture forms a reaction due to the presence of oxygen, large surface area of the fins, the right feed material, and the catalytic action of the gold nib. Bingo. Molten feed. This set of circumstances could be very rare.

 

So soaking pen parts in ink probably won't prove anything. Testing is a good idea but the simple soak test is not really the right test. The right set of circumstances will be really hard to track down unless a postmortem is done on a nib that has 'molten'.

 

One of the hard things is that Noodler's comes in so many families each with specific properties not found in other inks. This makes Noodler's desirable but comes with a risk because the ingredients used to give the Noodler's inks their special properties like bulletproofness is probably not found in the inks of other manufacturers. The compatibility testing with so many variables would be cost prohibitive. The combination of factors is pretty mind-numbing.

 

If you want to proceed along this course, you can try the next level of testing. Repeat your test but now add say a single drop of another manufacturers' ink.

Edited August 2, 2010 by AltecGreen

[Scrawler]

Just dunking a piece of a pen into Noodler's ink is not really the right test to confirm whether Noodler's ink will melt a pen (the feed in particular).

 

My hypothesis is that the majority of pen materials when soaked in Noodler's ink will be perfectly fine although staining can be a severe problem on some materials. Try getting BSB off of the American Art Plastics ivory celluloid. That is to say, for most users, there will not be any problems with Noodler's other than staining or clogging.

 

If Noodler's was that unstable or corrosive, there would have been many reports of problems and we wouldn't have all the silly topics since it would have been verified long ago. If there is a problem, then it requires more than one component to the reaction. A much more rare unique set of conditions.

 

The chemistry is probably rather complex. Possible chemical reactions may require the additional chemical compounds (aka residue of inks from other manufacturers), oxygen, temperature, a catalyst (noble metals like gold, platinum, and rhodium make very good catalysts for reactions), and/or surface area (surface reaction rates may differ from bulk rates). Ink is composed of not only dyes and the base solvent but also a number of things like surfactants or antifungal compounds. Any combination of these can cause a problem when mixed together.

 

Here is a simple scenario. A user has a pen filled with a certain non-Noodler's ink. This pen is used for a while and the user let's the pen sit for a while. Ink residue builds up in the feed but not clog the pen. The user switches to Noodler's ink and flushes the pen. Dried ink residue may take some time to get out and even if the pen runs clear there maybe some residue stuck in the feed. Noodler's ink is filled. The solvents in the Noodler's breaks down the dried residue and introduces a new component to the Noodler's mixture. This new mixture forms a reaction due to the presence of oxygen, large surface area of the fins, the right feed material, and the catalytic action of the gold nib. Bingo. Molten feed. This set of circumstances could be very rare.

 

So soaking pen parts in ink probably won't prove anything. Testing is a good idea but the simple soak test is not really the right test. The right set of circumstances will be really hard to track down unless a postmortem is done on a nib that has 'molten'.

 

One of the hard things is that Noodler's comes in so many families each with specific properties not found in other inks. This makes Noodler's desirable but comes with a risk because the ingredients used to give the Noodler's inks their special properties like bulletproofness is probably not found in the inks of other manufacturers. The compatibility testing with so many variables would be cost prohibitive. The combination of factors is pretty mind-numbing.

 

If you want to proceed along this course, you can try the next level of testing. Repeat your test but now add say a single drop of another manufacturers' ink.

This is a very interesting hypothesis, but refers to poor hygeine, not specifically the properties of a given ink. It raises questions about poor hygeine with every single potential combination of inks that a user could misuse, and would be a nigh on impossible task to experiment to test. Also BSB is the one ink that more than any other receives bad press, and the experiment specifically targets that ink. I would like to have seen feed for genuine and counterfeit Dupont pens included, because I have seen specific examples of Dupont feeds melted by this ink. I do not own a Dupont pen that I can cut up to experiment with, but I have written to Dupont to ask for some pieces, so that I can perform a similar experiment. I have an ethical problem supporting counterfeiters, so I cannot purchase a counterfeit Dupont to experiment with. But if anyone has inadvertently purchased a counterfeit Dupont pen, I would invite them to cut it up and perform a similar experiment.

 

I use both BSB and BSCG and one reason that I have never had any problem could potentially be that I have found pens in which each works so well that I have no need to put them in other pens. Also I am very pedantic about fountain pen hygeine, partly because I enjoy cleaning them, and partly because I do not like the color results of many ink mixtures.

[79spitfire]

The next test will be the feed.

 

After that I likely will not be testing again, I'm not going to "blow" all of my ink testing for damage to pens if you add 3 drops of brand z or y ink to Bay State Blue.

 

If you say the "soaking" test is not sufficent then please feel free to come up with your own test and use your own supplies, I will be very interested in the results.

 

The whole point is I am fed up with all the "Noodler's ate, damaged, punched me, or whatever else" threads. There is only confirmed damage to a handful of pens in the whole wide world. If you own one of these pens, I'm sorry, but so far (only one test) all I can confirm is it will stain the sink!!

 

I can see where this is going, instead of poking holes in my "test" make your own.. I am personally suspicious that there is a factor that is unknown in most "reports" of Bay State Blue damages.

 

MY 2C will be back next week with another test, until then......

Edited August 2, 2010 by 79spitfire

[EnviroDawg]

Just dunking a piece of a pen into Noodler's ink is not really the right test to confirm whether Noodler's ink will melt a pen (the feed in particular).

 

My hypothesis is that the majority of pen materials when soaked in Noodler's ink will be perfectly fine although staining can be a severe problem on some materials. Try getting BSB off of the American Art Plastics ivory celluloid. That is to say, for most users, there will not be any problems with Noodler's other than staining or clogging.

 

If Noodler's was that unstable or corrosive, there would have been many reports of problems and we wouldn't have all the silly topics since it would have been verified long ago. If there is a problem, then it requires more than one component to the reaction. A much more rare unique set of conditions.

 

The chemistry is probably rather complex. Possible chemical reactions may require the additional chemical compounds (aka residue of inks from other manufacturers), oxygen, temperature, a catalyst (noble metals like gold, platinum, and rhodium make very good catalysts for reactions), and/or surface area (surface reaction rates may differ from bulk rates). Ink is composed of not only dyes and the base solvent but also a number of things like surfactants or antifungal compounds. Any combination of these can cause a problem when mixed together.

 

Here is a simple scenario. A user has a pen filled with a certain non-Noodler's ink. This pen is used for a while and the user let's the pen sit for a while. Ink residue builds up in the feed but not clog the pen. The user switches to Noodler's ink and flushes the pen. Dried ink residue may take some time to get out and even if the pen runs clear there maybe some residue stuck in the feed. Noodler's ink is filled. The solvents in the Noodler's breaks down the dried residue and introduces a new component to the Noodler's mixture. This new mixture forms a reaction due to the presence of oxygen, large surface area of the fins, the right feed material, and the catalytic action of the gold nib. Bingo. Molten feed. This set of circumstances could be very rare.

 

So soaking pen parts in ink probably won't prove anything. Testing is a good idea but the simple soak test is not really the right test. The right set of circumstances will be really hard to track down unless a postmortem is done on a nib that has 'molten'.

 

One of the hard things is that Noodler's comes in so many families each with specific properties not found in other inks. This makes Noodler's desirable but comes with a risk because the ingredients used to give the Noodler's inks their special properties like bulletproofness is probably not found in the inks of other manufacturers. The compatibility testing with so many variables would be cost prohibitive. The combination of factors is pretty mind-numbing.

 

If you want to proceed along this course, you can try the next level of testing. Repeat your test but now add say a single drop of another manufacturers' ink.

This is a very interesting hypothesis, but refers to poor hygeine, not specifically the properties of a given ink. It raises questions about poor hygeine with every single potential combination of inks that a user could misuse, and would be a nigh on impossible task to experiment to test. Also BSB is the one ink that more than any other receives bad press, and the experiment specifically targets that ink. I would like to have seen feed for genuine and counterfeit Dupont pens included, because I have seen specific examples of Dupont feeds melted by this ink. I do not own a Dupont pen that I can cut up to experiment with, but I have written to Dupont to ask for some pieces, so that I can perform a similar experiment. I have an ethical problem supporting counterfeiters, so I cannot purchase a counterfeit Dupont to experiment with. But if anyone has inadvertently purchased a counterfeit Dupont pen, I would invite them to cut it up and perform a similar experiment.

 

I use both BSB and BSCG and one reason that I have never had any problem could potentially be that I have found pens in which each works so well that I have no need to put them in other pens. Also I am very pedantic about fountain pen hygeine, partly because I enjoy cleaning them, and partly because I do not like the color results of many ink mixtures.

 

Using a counterfeit Dupont is not going to tell you anything about Noodlers and Dupont pens. You have no idea what plastics/ebonite/other materials in the fake are as compared to the Dupont.

 

The myth of Noodlers inks melting feeds and eating children is just not all that. It may be that the pH of Noodler's mixes in some wierd way with another ink that was still in a feed, pen, etc. and created some acidic goo...but even that does not allow for control of problems in production of the pens themselves. We have all seen examples and heard of issues with bad batches of parts for pens either from the community or directly from the mfgr. IF only pen companies were as forthcoming as Speedy has been about QA/AC issues. And as already has been hammered into the ground, poor pen maintenance can lead to issues from a myriad of inks interacting. Or maybe someone flushed with 10:1 ammonia solution and forgot to flush the feed completely or maybe were distracted and flushed with pure ammonia or 1:1 or .... ....who knows!!!

Edited August 2, 2010 by EnviroDawg

[pen2paper]

applaud your effort..

also thought, this could include other examples, with a feed, and also rubber, metals, that equal the mix of chemicals and elements..

 

don't have BSB, but might..it's a great color..

 

thinking..just as 3 out of several vehicles I use is compatible with E-85, and once drove engine's which required either diesel or premium leaded fuels.. similarly, some ink formula's might best be used in pens dedicated to that use.. especially if one is less inclined to flush old residue fully, and regularly... or is a material easily stained by saturated inks.

 

am inclined to match products/designs that work well together, and not force the camel through the eye of the needle, so to speak..

 

I also don't use a hot needle to test whether bakelite is bakelite, thereby ruining unidentified cellulloid, or casein... the value of the vintage item has more value to me, than damaging, initiating decomposition, it in order to positively ID.. prove to Others, who opine this Is the accepted method.. am funny that way. to each his own, in the end.

[Scrawler]

Just dunking a piece of a pen into Noodler's ink is not really the right test to confirm whether Noodler's ink will melt a pen (the feed in particular).

 

My hypothesis is that the majority of pen materials when soaked in Noodler's ink will be perfectly fine although staining can be a severe problem on some materials. Try getting BSB off of the American Art Plastics ivory celluloid. That is to say, for most users, there will not be any problems with Noodler's other than staining or clogging.

 

If Noodler's was that unstable or corrosive, there would have been many reports of problems and we wouldn't have all the silly topics since it would have been verified long ago. If there is a problem, then it requires more than one component to the reaction. A much more rare unique set of conditions.

 

The chemistry is probably rather complex. Possible chemical reactions may require the additional chemical compounds (aka residue of inks from other manufacturers), oxygen, temperature, a catalyst (noble metals like gold, platinum, and rhodium make very good catalysts for reactions), and/or surface area (surface reaction rates may differ from bulk rates). Ink is composed of not only dyes and the base solvent but also a number of things like surfactants or antifungal compounds. Any combination of these can cause a problem when mixed together.

 

Here is a simple scenario. A user has a pen filled with a certain non-Noodler's ink. This pen is used for a while and the user let's the pen sit for a while. Ink residue builds up in the feed but not clog the pen. The user switches to Noodler's ink and flushes the pen. Dried ink residue may take some time to get out and even if the pen runs clear there maybe some residue stuck in the feed. Noodler's ink is filled. The solvents in the Noodler's breaks down the dried residue and introduces a new component to the Noodler's mixture. This new mixture forms a reaction due to the presence of oxygen, large surface area of the fins, the right feed material, and the catalytic action of the gold nib. Bingo. Molten feed. This set of circumstances could be very rare.

 

So soaking pen parts in ink probably won't prove anything. Testing is a good idea but the simple soak test is not really the right test. The right set of circumstances will be really hard to track down unless a postmortem is done on a nib that has 'molten'.

 

One of the hard things is that Noodler's comes in so many families each with specific properties not found in other inks. This makes Noodler's desirable but comes with a risk because the ingredients used to give the Noodler's inks their special properties like bulletproofness is probably not found in the inks of other manufacturers. The compatibility testing with so many variables would be cost prohibitive. The combination of factors is pretty mind-numbing.

 

If you want to proceed along this course, you can try the next level of testing. Repeat your test but now add say a single drop of another manufacturers' ink.

This is a very interesting hypothesis, but refers to poor hygeine, not specifically the properties of a given ink. It raises questions about poor hygeine with every single potential combination of inks that a user could misuse, and would be a nigh on impossible task to experiment to test. Also BSB is the one ink that more than any other receives bad press, and the experiment specifically targets that ink. I would like to have seen feed for genuine and counterfeit Dupont pens included, because I have seen specific examples of Dupont feeds melted by this ink. I do not own a Dupont pen that I can cut up to experiment with, but I have written to Dupont to ask for some pieces, so that I can perform a similar experiment. I have an ethical problem supporting counterfeiters, so I cannot purchase a counterfeit Dupont to experiment with. But if anyone has inadvertently purchased a counterfeit Dupont pen, I would invite them to cut it up and perform a similar experiment.

 

I use both BSB and BSCG and one reason that I have never had any problem could potentially be that I have found pens in which each works so well that I have no need to put them in other pens. Also I am very pedantic about fountain pen hygeine, partly because I enjoy cleaning them, and partly because I do not like the color results of many ink mixtures.

 

Using a counterfeit Dupont is not going to tell you anything about Noodlers and Dupont pens. You have no idea what plastics/ebonite/other materials in the fake are as compared to the Dupont.

 

The myth of Noodlers inks melting feeds and eating children is just not all that. It may be that the pH of Noodler's mixes in some wierd way with another ink that was still in a feed, pen, etc. and created some acidic goo...but even that does not allow for control of problems in production of the pens themselves. We have all seen examples and heard of issues with bad batches of parts for pens either from the community or directly from the mfgr. IF only pen companies were as forthcoming as Speedy has been about QA/AC issues. And as already has been hammered into the ground, poor pen maintenance can lead to issues from a myriad of inks interacting. Or maybe someone flushed with 10:1 ammonia solution and forgot to flush the feed completely or maybe were distracted and flushed with pure ammonia or 1:1 or .... ....who knows!!!

Using a real and counterfeit Dupont could potentially answer questions about this example: http://gregminuskin.com/

[Lloyd]

Since Lamy was the first brand of pen to spontaneously combust from BSB and, I've read somewhere, Lamy uses Lamy Blue in testing, perhaps a mixture of BSB, Lamy Blue, and either a plastic or celluloid should be tried. Or, any user that knows what ink they had used prior to BSB eating their baby pen could suggest another ink to mix with BSB in an attempt to make the Devil's sputum.

[AltecGreen]

The next test will be the feed.

 

After that I likely will not be testing again, I'm not going to "blow" all of my ink testing for damage to pens if you add 3 drops of brand z or y ink to Bay State Blue.

 

If you say the "soaking" test is not sufficent then please feel free to come up with your own test and use your own supplies, I will be very interested in the results.

 

The whole point is I am fed up with all the "Noodler's ate, damaged, punched me, or whatever else" threads. There is only confirmed damage to a handful of pens in the whole wide world. If you own one of these pens, I'm sorry, but so far (only one test) all I can confirm is it will stain the sink!!

 

I can see where this is going, instead of poking holes in my "test" make your own.. I am personally suspicious that there is a factor that is unknown in most "reports" of Bay State Blue damages.

 

MY 2C will be back next week with another test, until then......

 

 

It wasn't my intention to rain on your parade so to speak. Your test was just very limited in scope and as a scientist I'm naturally inclined to speak up about the testing process. Just my training in action. I have no vested interest either way other than if scientific testing is going to occur then it should be done the right way. I have a responsibility to my craft and profession. As a disclaimer, I use Noodler's ink including BSB and know many people who love the stuff and have no problems with it. So don't lump me in with the Noodler's hater. I'm just pragmatic and realistic about the whole thing.

 

The fastest way to end this debate is for Nathan and other ink manufacturers to tell us what's in their inks. A good chemist can figure out pretty quickly from the ingredients, the possible reactions that can eat plastic if any. Otherwise, the proper test is either analyze the a 'molten sample' to figure out what the reaction was or to backwards engineer Noodler's ink to get the ingredients list. It's quite a challenging research project for a fairly unimportant problem in the grand scheme of things. I'll have to verify, but I was told a member ran some Noodler's through a mass spec and the results were too messy to work out the ingredients.

 

Look, I understand your frustration. It's obvious Noodler's ink is something you care about and these topics basically are bashing that which you care about. The topics that keep popping up are tiring and many times silly. But until things are finally settled, nothing will change. There are already too many warnings about Noodler's ink all over the internet. Newbies will naturally do a Google search, find these, and then get scared. The lore that Noodler's is in someway harmful has already permeated the pen community. That is not going to go away easily. A local store just started to stock Noodler's but will only stock a very limited selection because they cannot afford any hassles from their customers if there is a problem with some of the more exotic varieties. Unfortunately, the onus is on Nathan to resolve this because it hurt his bottom line. His competitors and detractors certainly won't. If there is a problem, it only affects a very small number of users. You can say "bad luck...", "I feel bad..." ,and so on, but then the lore of Noodler's being harmful will only continue.

 

As to pen hygiene, I think this card is played too easily when dealing with people who claim to have problems with Noodler's. After prolonged use, some ink deposits are naturally going to form and these deposits may not be quickly dissolved. I have pens where I have flushed until the water runs clear and I continue flushing. However, sometimes if I come back to this pen after a few weeks after flushing and storing, some trace amount of ink can be still found. It's not always easy to get rid of every last bit of the old ink short of dismantling and cleaning every part. You shouldn't have to be this fastidious to use a fountain pen.

[dizzypen]

Altec,

 

While I appreciate your skepticism, the OP never said the test was scientific. In fact, the OP specifically stated that it was an "un-scientific home brew test". Therefore, I hardly see why you feel you must speak up for your field when your field has never been at question.

 

If the OP or anyone else wants to soak a pen in BSB, report their results, and offer an opinion they are more than welcome. Said OP or anyone else does not have any responsibility to set-up the experiment in accordance to the most stringent of scientific standards and/or test for every possible variable.

 

Spitfire,

 

Thanks for the report. I'm surprised that BSB didn't try to smother you in your sleep.

Edited August 2, 2010 by dizzypen

[79spitfire]

How would anyone know what ink to combine the BSB with?? How would I have a baseline showing what BSB by itself would do? A common "scientific" method is to increase "dosage" or exposure, such as when paint is tested. They don't wait for 30 years of weather, they expose it to what they figure is 30 years of UV, water, and wind exposure. I've read claims that as little as 4 days of exposure to BSB is enough to physically damage the feeds and other parts of a fountain pen. I started with the celluloid because it was handy.

 

Dizzy,

 

Na, The ink didn't do anything interesting.... except stain the sink, and Comet with bleach fixed that. :roflmho:

[AltecGreen]

How would anyone know what ink to combine the BSB with?? How would I have a baseline showing what BSB by itself would do? A common "scientific" method is to increase "dosage" or exposure, such as when paint is tested. They don't wait for 30 years of weather, they expose it to what they figure is 30 years of UV, water, and wind exposure. I've read claims that as little as 4 days of exposure to BSB is enough to physically damage the feeds and other parts of a fountain pen. I started with the celluloid because it was handy.

 

First of all, the reason I spoke up as a scientist is because this 'testing' is quickly becoming pseudoscience.

 

So let's try a different tact because I do want a definitive answer to this problem.

 

The hypothesis we want to test is the claim that as little as 4 days exposure to BSB is enough to physically damage the feeds and other parts of a fountain pen.

 

I think BSB is not the only Noodler's ink claimed to have problems but it is the one that gets the bad rap. The 4 days is kinda of a red herring because reaction times can vary under a whole hosts of different conditions.

 

 

As I said earlier, the number of variables like other inks makes solving this problem with simple tests intractable because of the shear number of combinations. The shortcut to this is knowing what's in BSB but since that's not forthcoming we need to reduce the phase space.

 

 

One strategy is to look at the various reports of damage and try to reproduce those situations. I recall a member having an Estie cap melt due to BSB and heat. That scenario should be easy to reproduce. As for ink combinations, there was some info in this thread. Lloyds suggestion is also a good idea starting point.

Edited August 2, 2010 by AltecGreen

[79spitfire]

How would anyone know what ink to combine the BSB with?? How would I have a baseline showing what BSB by itself would do? A common "scientific" method is to increase "dosage" or exposure, such as when paint is tested. They don't wait for 30 years of weather, they expose it to what they figure is 30 years of UV, water, and wind exposure. I've read claims that as little as 4 days of exposure to BSB is enough to physically damage the feeds and other parts of a fountain pen. I started with the celluloid because it was handy.

 

First of all, the reason I spoke up as a scientist is because this 'testing' is quickly becoming pseudoscience.

 

So let's try a different tact because I do want a definitive answer to this problem.

 

The hypothesis we want to test is the claim that as little as 4 days exposure to BSB is enough to physically damage the feeds and other parts of a fountain pen.

 

I think BSB is not the only Noodler's ink claimed to have problems but it is the one that gets the bad rap. The 4 days is kinda of a red herring because reaction times can vary under a whole hosts of different conditions.

 

 

As I said earlier, the number of variables like other inks makes solving this problem with simple tests intractable because of the shear number of combinations. The shortcut to this is knowing what's in BSB but since that's not forthcoming we need to reduce the phase space.

 

 

One strategy is to look at the various reports of damage and try to reproduce those situations. I recall a member having an Estie cap melt due to BSB and heat. That scenario should be easy to reproduce. As for ink combinations, there was some info in this thread. Lloyds suggestion is also a good idea starting point.

 

I'm not sacrificing any of my Esties to test ANY ink. I'm sorry my method isn't scientific enough for you. Have a nice day

[ateebtk]

To the O/P , I appreciate the effort and now don't have any phobia's against BSB.

 

Thanks,

ATK

 

[AltecGreen]

 

 

I'm not sacrificing any of my Esties to test ANY ink. I'm sorry my method isn't scientific enough for you. Have a nice day

 

 

I'm sorry my posts seem to have offended you in some way. I want to get to the heart of this Noodler's issue for my own curiosity. Unfortunately, the way to do that is not simple. It wasn't my intent to denigrate your efforts. But anything related to Noodler's inks seems to be beyond reason or logic. Oh well. Crunch....Crunch....Crunch....

 

If it will make you feel any better, I promise I'll never join in another discussion on Noodler's ink on FPN.

 

 

You also must have mistaken my intent. I did not expect you to use your own Esties for testing. I didn't even know you owned any. I can come up with scrap Esterbrook parts pretty easily.

[John Cullen]

Hi AltecGreen

 

I am not sure why the original poster took so much offense to what you said. I never thought you were denegrating his experiment, just adding some comments and suggestions for more testing. I do appreciate your comments.

 

Also, I think you hit the nail on the head when you mention that it is difficult to get all the ink out of any pen---and some can not be easily disassembled-----so that a person can not be sure there is no residue in the pen if it has been used for ANY ink.

 

I use BSB but dedicated one pen to it, and the two other pens I used it in were disassembled and cleaned, though even then there is a sheen on the feeds that won't come off.

 

Thanks for your comments.

[79spitfire]

OK, I'm sorry, I did get worked up. This whole Noodler's ink thing strikes me as brand bashing, and having been on the receiving end more than once (this is not the place for THAT discussion..) I get a tad sensitive.

 

I just wanted to know what would happen, The Esterbrooks in question were both left with BSB in them and then (from what I gather) left in a place where they could get warm. I would not leave an antique pen made from any early plastic in a place where they could get warm/hot, inked or not. My hope was to somewhat copy the circumstances where the ink burped into the celluloid cap and laid there for a period of time without the heat. As we all know 140F is easy to get in a car and that's very close to the damaging point for many plastics. How many banana shaped pens have there been on Ebay? All it takes to make one of those is to leave it on the seat in Vegas for an hour or so...

 

The same test is being repeated with an old cast feed, will post back in a week, this is as scientific as I have facilities to provide. I believe that in some way it mimics how the ink would be exposed to the plastic under extreme circumstances.

 

One point that has been bugging me, on the "melted feed" while the ink in the pen contacted the top (where the feed channels are) how much ink should or would contact the bottom? On my pens the fins only rarely have the tiniest amount of ink, if any at all most of the time. How did BSB get into a high enough contact to damage that? Or do they believe it "soaked through" the plastic?

 

I'm no "fanboy" either, if the ink damages something there will be pictures posted, and forwarded to Nathan at Noodler's, heck I'll even send him the parts, so he can fix the problem! (with the ink)

[Mickey]

First of all, the reason I spoke up as a scientist is because this 'testing' is quickly becoming pseudoscience.

 

 

It's worse than that and I'm surprised a professed scientist wouldn't mention it. The completeness and accuracy of the anecdotes about damage are even more questionable than the quality of the casual test done by the OP. For example, how many pens not acquainted with BSB have failed similarly. The mythology surrounding Noodler's inks and their idiosyncratic marketing makes the anecdotal evidence of destruction suspect (e.g. a tendency toward self-selection).

 

From what I've read, there is nothing that can clearly be attributed to BSB other than being the ink in use when some unknown number of pens were observed to fail. (It is quite possible that BSB is only guilty to the extent that one or more components, e.g., the surfacant, accelerates the appearance of damage already inflicted by some other ink, combination of inks, or combination of factors. That is, something as benign as a concentrated solution of Kodak Photo Flow or Prell might have the same effect.) The point is, we do not know what else was done to these pens prior to their demise at the hand of Nathan's evil ink. The start condition is unknown. Learning the formula of the ink might not tell us anything useful without also knowing the exact condition of the failed pens prior to their contact with BSB. This means not only their use history but also their manufacturing and pre-sale storage histories.

 

As for the OP's test's lack of scientific rigor: it tests what the OP professes it tests. Does a soak in BSB visibly damage celluloid more than distilled water does over a specified period of time, all other factors being grossly identical? That is certainly not an exhaustive test of BSB destructive force, but the OP does not say that it is. It tests what it tests. It's does not lack rigor if one attends to the clearly stated limitations. Dismissing it out of hand because it is not exhaustive, strikes me as more scientifically suspect than the test itself.

[jomielll]

Thanks, spitfire, an interesting test. And I enjoyed the discussion in the thread.

 

If anyone else is interested in doing a similar test, I propose that beyond having distilled water as control, that we include a "safe" ink commonly recommended as a control also, just so there is a direct ink vs. ink comparison.