Doing Mathematics with Fountain Pens?

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

I still do a fair bit by hand scribble-wise. I'm still using an open nib M width, which I roll to use the 'wrong' side of the nib for the wee little squiggles.

 

If I were doing a huge amount, then I'd go for an Estie with an M or F Posting nib. Rigid - not just 'firm'. Soft/flex nibs or even Pelikan nibs are too 'squishy'.

 

Ink: R&K 'Salix' can handle rough treatment, over-writing, HiLiting, etc. Does dry a bit quickly in the nib though, so keep the cap handy.

 

Bye,

S1

[Zaarin]

I'm no mathematician (I've even forgotten the formal method of long division...), but if you can I'd recommend getting a smooth Japanese EF. Paired with a quick-drying ink that ought to mitigate any problems of both size and smudging versus pencils.

[ZeissIkon]

Does it still get -1^2 wrong?

Well, assuming it uses Algebraic notation, it does--giving an answer of one. According to the standard order of operations, -1^2 looks like this to the computer: -(1^2). To get it to give you an answer of one, you should have to type in (-1)^2. Of course all the parentheses can get confusing; one reason why I prefer RPN.

 

Actually, even Algebraic notation should get that right -- "unary negative" (i.e. a sign applied to a number or variable) is the highest precedence operation; -1^2 is the same as (-1)^2, if the calculator or spreadsheet is programmed correctly.

[seasterl]

I use Excel

Does it still get -1^2 wrong?

Well, assuming it uses Algebraic notation, it does--giving an answer of one. According to the standard order of operations, -1^2 looks like this to the computer: -(1^2). To get it to give you an answer of one, you should have to type in (-1)^2. Of course all the parentheses can get confusing; one reason why I prefer RPN.

 

RPN Rules!

 

I used to have a huge collection of HP calculators but eventually sold off 2/3 of the collection and kept only my favorites. You guys should visit the hpmuseum.com site sometime.

[sittingduck]

If I have to turn in the assignment I use pencil, because most professors don't want homework and tests in pen. If its notes or problems that aren't turned in I use FPs. I write with med and broad nibs, since I have large handwriting.

It's possible that what they're really after is clean, readable solutions. As others have said, crossing out on a work page, then copying to a "final" page is preferred, but that does take time. Students often prefer to use pencil and erase. It is a bit quicker, but is not necessarily more legible than just crossing out.

 

As an aside: That act of copying to a "final" page is a good way to force yourself to go through and check the solution again. It's not uncommon to have multiple "final" copies, as you find something wrong or incomplete in your supposedly correct solution. I, of course, never had to do this (*cough*).

 

As for pens, I teach physics and use a Pilot Plumix for most work these days, which includes copying over lecture notes every time I teach a particular course (forces me to re-think the material). If a Plumix nib seems a bit too big, buy a Pilot Penmanship and try that. For $15 you can get one of each and see which one you like better.

[PianoMan14]

Does it still get -1^2 wrong?

Well, assuming it uses Algebraic notation, it does--giving an answer of one. According to the standard order of operations, -1^2 looks like this to the computer: -(1^2). To get it to give you an answer of one, you should have to type in (-1)^2. Of course all the parentheses can get confusing; one reason why I prefer RPN.

 

Actually, even Algebraic notation should get that right -- "unary negative" (i.e. a sign applied to a number or variable) is the highest precedence operation; -1^2 is the same as (-1)^2, if the calculator or spreadsheet is programmed correctly.

 

I stand corrected--I think I was going by the principles of written mathematics instead of 'calculator' or 'computer' mathematics:

Unfortunately, there exist differing conventions concerning the unary operator − (usually read "minus"). In written or printed mathematics, the expression −3² is interpreted to mean −(3²) = −9, but in some applications and programming languages, notably the application Microsoft Office Excel and the programming language bc, unary operators have a higher priority than binary operators, that is, the unary minus (negation) has higher precedence than exponentiation, so in those languages −3² will be interpreted as (−3)² = 9. [2] . In any case where there is a possibility that the notation might be misinterpreted, it is advisable to use parentheses to clarify which interpretation is intended. (From Wikipedia)

Edited April 1, 2010 by PianoMan14

[dmmcf]

Actually, even Algebraic notation should get that right -- "unary negative" (i.e. a sign applied to a number or variable) is the highest precedence operation; -1^2 is the same as (-1)^2, if the calculator or spreadsheet is programmed correctly.

True, this has nothing to do with RPN vs. infix notation; it is a matter of some computer applications using a different order of operations (operator precedence) from that accepted in mathematics per se. See, for example, this Wikipedia page, from which I quote:

 

Unfortunately, there exist differing conventions concerning the unary operator − (usually read "minus"). In written or printed mathematics, the expression −3^2 is interpreted to mean −(3^2) = −9, but in some applications and programming languages, notably the application Microsoft Office Excel and the programming language bc, unary operators have a higher priority than binary operators, that is, the unary minus (negation) has higher precedence than exponentiation, so in those languages −3^2 will be interpreted as (−3)^2 = 9....

 

I find it inexcusable that a spreadsheet program (Excel) should deviate from accepted mathematical usage in this manner. That MS's competitors have often followed suit in the interest of compatibility is a highly dubious design decision, but somewhat easier to understand. I would argue that while bc is wrong it is so obscure that it's unlikely to do much harm, but Excel and its ilk are ubiquitous. Adding parentheses works only if one knows to do it.

 

I'll still use spreadsheets, sometimes even Excel, when required to do so, but I check their results independently. There's usually nothing more at stake than company budgets or student grades, but I'm funny that way.

[wheezur]

I pretty much napped and daydreamed all the way through middle school, so I never learned which operation took precedence over another. To compensate for my PDD (Precedence Deficiency Disorder) I am a parenthesis abuser. I put parentheses around everything. This saves me the trouble of remembering when I need to and when I don't. I can never remember how EXCEL (or MatLab or Mathematica or anything else) interprets things so I would never write -1^2. Instead, I always write (-1)^2.

 

Further, I'm embarrassed to admit that I do things like (100/2)/3 or 100/(2*3)instead of 100/2/3. Yes, I know it is dumb, but I'd rather be right than save a couple of parentheses. Besides, I get parentheses at a discount.

[johnptc]

I use Excel

Does it still get -1^2 wrong?

Well, assuming it uses Algebraic notation, it does--giving an answer of one. According to the standard order of operations, -1^2 looks like this to the computer: -(1^2). To get it to give you an answer of one, you should have to type in (-1)^2. Of course all the parentheses can get confusing; one reason why I prefer RPN.

 

RPN Rules!

 

I used to have a huge collection of HP calculators but eventually sold off 2/3 of the collection and kept only my favorites. You guys should visit the hpmuseum.com site sometime.

 

 

i still have my original hp35 with the initial errors around the ln2 if i remember correctly

[Feanor]

Does it still get -1^2 wrong?

Well, assuming it uses Algebraic notation, it does--giving an answer of one. According to the standard order of operations, -1^2 looks like this to the computer: -(1^2). To get it to give you an answer of one, you should have to type in (-1)^2. Of course all the parentheses can get confusing; one reason why I prefer RPN.

 

Actually, even Algebraic notation should get that right -- "unary negative" (i.e. a sign applied to a number or variable) is the highest precedence operation; -1^2 is the same as (-1)^2, if the calculator or spreadsheet is programmed correctly.

 

I stand corrected--I think I was going by the principles of written mathematics instead of 'calculator' or 'computer' mathematics:

Unfortunately, there exist differing conventions concerning the unary operator − (usually read "minus"). In written or printed mathematics, the expression −3² is interpreted to mean −(3²) = −9, but in some applications and programming languages, notably the application Microsoft Office Excel and the programming language bc, unary operators have a higher priority than binary operators, that is, the unary minus (negation) has higher precedence than exponentiation, so in those languages −3² will be interpreted as (−3)² = 9. [2] . In any case where there is a possibility that the notation might be misinterpreted, it is advisable to use parentheses to clarify which interpretation is intended. (From Wikipedia)

 

 

Actually, even Algebraic notation should get that right -- "unary negative" (i.e. a sign applied to a number or variable) is the highest precedence operation; -1^2 is the same as (-1)^2, if the calculator or spreadsheet is programmed correctly.

True, this has nothing to do with RPN vs. infix notation; it is a matter of some computer applications using a different order of operations (operator precedence) from that accepted in mathematics per se. See, for example, this Wikipedia page, from which I quote:

 

Unfortunately, there exist differing conventions concerning the unary operator − (usually read "minus"). In written or printed mathematics, the expression −3^2 is interpreted to mean −(3^2) = −9, but in some applications and programming languages, notably the application Microsoft Office Excel and the programming language bc, unary operators have a higher priority than binary operators, that is, the unary minus (negation) has higher precedence than exponentiation, so in those languages −3^2 will be interpreted as (−3)^2 = 9....

 

I find it inexcusable that a spreadsheet program (Excel) should deviate from accepted mathematical usage in this manner. That MS's competitors have often followed suit in the interest of compatibility is a highly dubious design decision, but somewhat easier to understand. I would argue that while bc is wrong it is so obscure that it's unlikely to do much harm, but Excel and its ilk are ubiquitous. Adding parentheses works only if one knows to do it.

 

I'll still use spreadsheets, sometimes even Excel, when required to do so, but I check their results independently. There's usually nothing more at stake than company budgets or student grades, but I'm funny that way.

 

Google does it mathematically.

[bernardo]

I have heard from many people that pencils are the cat's whiskers for math. All of my pens are M or stub, so I can't really do math with them, and have been using a Pentel P205 mechanical pencil. Do you use pencils or pens for mathematics, and if so, what pen do you use?

 

I did consider the Parker 51 because of it's hooded nib (which is extremely resistant to drying out) and the Vanishing Point.

 

I think any pen with a fine nib will do.

[Axon]

I was completely ignorant of fountain pens all the way through college, but I did spend a semester doing notes with a cheap Rapidograph. Jesus, that was torture. The pen died a fast and painless death from overuse and I went back to ludicrously fine pencils (0.3mm) which is what I otherwise used.

 

IIRC, for my university physics class, all coursework was required to be written in a single unique notebook, and nothing could be erased - but pencils were allowed. I don't think they were forbidden or required.

 

I always had a problem with smudging with fine-tipped pencil leads. At 0.3 and 0.5mm, any hardness of lead that left any kind of dark mark on the paper was eventually going to smudge. If you're like me and keep your notes stored after college, this only gets worse as you transport them around.

 

That said, I find that a Lamy EF is about the widest possible nib I'm comfortable with for math, and even then, some inks make too wide a point with it. Something like a flex nib with a really fine point might be the best option. Or - hell - maybe a Tradio. You can't go wrong with felt.

[Penman222]

I prefer to use my two medium nibbed Lamy Safaris and a pretty bright ink like Pelikan Violet, Waterman South Sea Blue, or Diamine Ultra Green. Of course I am not solving differential equations I am writing notes for an 8th grade Math class.

 

I like a 0.7 Pental P207 lead pencil with HB lead for writing tests however.

[dannzeman]

I did all my math work with a Pilot G2. Sadly, those were the days before I got into fountain pens.

[seanpooh]

I use a fountain pen everyday for math. When doing homework I have a scrap paper to get all the problems done, then write them all over neatly. On math tests only my name is written in ink, the rest in pencil. As for note, I put a loose sheet of paper atop the notes I written then close the notebook so the ink would dry properly. It prevents all smudging. Just as a side note, on a TI-83/84/89 -1^2=-1.

Edited April 2, 2010 by seanpooh

[nolagraph]

As an engineering student I have no issue using a fountain pen for calculations. For me the limiting factor is my tendency to do things wrong the first few times, resulting in a very messy paper. Therefore, for pure math assignments I tend to use a pencil to preserve the possibility of erasure. Quick calculations as part of a design or analysis problem are almost always done in FP, as are transcriptions of earlier "rough" work into a final "polished" product. To me, pen conveys an air of confidence and finality in my work.

[geoduc]

Pentel Twist-Erase 0.5mm pencils for me. Used them all through college and still keep several around the house. One of the few mechanical pencils I've found that actually has a useful eraser.

 

I only did calculations in pen when required to for lab notebooks, etc.

[bdk]

With my Sailor 1911 EF Mathemathic symbols are no problem.

[bdk]

With my Sailor 1911 EF Mathemathic symbols are no problem.

[Philips]

Integral symbols look kinda cool when written with an OBB. Would normally do a rough draft in pencil first then a final copy written in ink, not so often these days sadly.