Starting on copperplate/engrosser's script

[maladat]

I have recently gotten into fountain pens and have been writing a lot more, and I have realized my penmanship is not very good. My day-to-day print is at least legible, but I am slow and uneven with the Zaner-Bloser cursive I learned in school and I don't particularly find it to be an attractive script. I am working on improving it, but in looking around these boards have discovered several beautiful scripts! I really like the copperplate/engrosser's script and decided I would like to learn it, so I bought some supplies.

 

I placed an order at John Neal Books last week and got a bunch of stuff. I got several handwriting and calligraphy books as well as one of the Tysdale oblique penholders and a number of different nibs to try (Nikko G, Leonardt Principal EF and Hiro 700, Gillott 303 and 404, and Hunt 22B). I also bought some Higgins Eternal Black Ink and some Moon Palace Sumi ink and some paper.

 

Some observations after a few hours of playing with this stuff:

 

I find the Sumi ink to be much easier to use than the Higgins ink. The Higgins flows so quickly that I get terrible feathering and can only write a couple of small letters at a time. The Sumi ink flows very nicely and lasts for more writing. It also smells pleasant and has a lovely shine on the paper!

 

I find the Hiro 700 nib the easiest to use, followed by the Nikko G nib, with the others much more difficult (smoothest up-strokes and easiest to control the flex).

 

Writing at such a pronounced right slant is HARD! Also, I am having a lot of trouble getting squared-off bottoms to flexed down strokes.

 

This is a lot of fun and I am looking forward to both improved penmanship and the practice itself.

 

Thanks for reading and I welcome any comments or suggestions,

Maladat

Edited March 16, 2010 by maladat

[AD356]

Thanks for sharing.

 

I too Love Sumi ink, if you want to try another brand "Kuretake" is one I am very fond of. I use two different types of their ink the first comes in a square green bottle it is easily found on most site, and unlike most of their ink it is waterproof. The second is rather hard to find so here is a link. It is not waterproof but is very dark and dense with a beautiful shine to it. You will find a wide array of Sumi inks and other Japaneses calligraphy items on that site.

 

I am having a lot of trouble getting squared-off bottoms to flexed down strokes.

 

This might help it is a Video from the great Dr. Joe Vitolo and shows how to do a "Square Cutoff"

 

http://www.iampeth.com/videos/JMVSqCutoff.wmv

 

(no affiliation with any site)

 

Good luck and hope to hear from you again.

 

Also feel free to PM me about buying or trading Nibs

[maladat]

Thank you, that video is very helpful. It's hard but I'm working on it.

 

I'll post some samples of my not-very-good practice attempts in a few days.

[maladat]

As promised, here is an example of my fledgling copperplate:

 

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac324/maladat/Scan001-2.jpg

 

Scathing comments and criticism welcome!

 

I wish I had made note of when I started, it took somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-20 minutes. It also might be easier doing it larger... this paper has quite small guidelines (for me at least) - 1/8" minuscule letter height (4.5mm).

 

Also it is obvious looking around that all my letterforms are either too short or too wide.

Edited March 20, 2010 by maladat

[Anna Cecilia]

I'm no expert at all, but I think you're doing pretty well already. Just keep practicing! If you think the guidelines are too small for your handwriting, maybe you could print off / make some larger ones. You could also draw some extra diagonal guidelines parallel to the ones already there. You could make the distance between them equivalent to the width of each letter to help you keep your slant and letter size consistent. Most important of all, keep enjoying it!

[flamelily]

Oh this post is exactly what I was needing! I too just started trying to learn copperplate/engrossers and am battling! Your work thus far is MILES above mine .

I am going to order an oblique holder from John Neal as I am battling to find anything, let alone an oblique in my area.

I have a couple of copperplate nibs which I am using in a straight holder and doing fairly abysmally. I have the W&N calligraphers ink... and am practicing on printouts from http://thejamesiveygroup.com/WEBSITES/IAMPETH_New/lessons.php and I think the paper might not be helping (normal printer paper) as the ink just gloops straight into the paper.

Watching videos of how you are supposed to use the nibs - ie flexing to the left right, wide narrow etc just fail for me. The first nib I was using just seemed too stiff, the second is better but as I said the ink just flows out as soon as I flex. Going to check out the nibs you mentioned though...

 

So those are my glitches so far - lets not even talk about the letter structure

 

Oh and has everyone seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C09ebUBAd_s

oh.my.gosh. I SO want to do that...

[vidalia11]

There are oblique nibs as well. I've found oblique holders & oblique nibs at art supply stores. Normal printer paper isn't ink-friendly. If you have Staples office supply, go there & buy their bagasse paper products. These were made with sugar cane or something. The paper is very ink-friendly and they are cheap.

 

An oblique nib in a straight holder:

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4450645875_488021f0f2.jpg

 

Writing done just now with the nib:

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/4450645941_80dd9f2e8f.jpg

 

good luck, you're already doing great.

 

Karen

[maladat]

Thanks everyone for the comments! I do plan to keep with it. I ordered a few other types of nibs to try which should come tomorrow, I think, as well as some different paper. I'll also try more diagonal lines for spacing help. I don't have ANY paper (including very FP-friendly paper) that the Higgins Eternal ink doesn't just blot and spread out on with the nibs I have. The Sumi ink is a lot better behaved (even though it still blots a little bit), and I have been using it exclusively.

 

That video is amazing and I'm quite sure I'll never be able to do anything like it, but I really would love to be able to do simpler offhand flourishes also - one of the books I bought has some instructions in it, but given my current level of prowess it'll be a while before I even try!

 

Flamelily, keep it up! One thing that has helped me some even with the little bit of time I've spent so far is to look back at earlier practice examples I'd done - with change happening gradually, it's easy not to notice that you're getting better, but going back and comparing what you just did to something you did after half as much practice shows a big difference!

[flamelily]

thank you for the encouragement! I will try and be brave and post some scans of my attempts when I get myself organised!

Have some hiro700 and Nikko G nibs coming, along with a 5/8inch Century penholder on order, as well as some Sumi ink.

I also ordered the following:

Calligraphy in Copperplate Style

Mastering Copperplate/Winters

Ornate Pictorial Calligraphy/Lupfer

Techniques of Copperplate Calligraphy / Turner

 

Cant wait!

I am raiding my Mum's stash of calligraphy supplies also - I remember when I was younger she had a stack of different nibs etc, and I am SURE she had an oblique nib lurking somewhere - so I have dispatched orders to find it for next time I visit

[caliken]

I find the Sumi ink to be much easier to use than the Higgins ink. The Higgins flows so quickly that I get terrible feathering and can only write a couple of small letters at a time.

maladat,

 

I'm surprised that you're having so much trouble with Higgins Eternal ink. This example of Copperplate script was written with a Gillott 303 nib and Higgins ink. This combination is most often recommended for Copperplate script.

 

As you can see, this Ornamental Script was written with only one dip of Higgins Eternal.

 

Perhaps your paper is at fault. Avoid shiny,(coated)papers and try matte smooth surfaces.

Some papers for inkjet machines, are very good for flex-nib writing. It's worth experimenting - any one of the three, nib, ink, or paper could be the problem

 

Also,I would suggest writing with a minuscule height of at least 1/4". Writing at 1/8" is more difficult and not ideal for starting out.

 

Good luck.....and welcome to the club!

 

caliken

Edited March 22, 2010 by caliken

[maladat]

flamelily,

Sounds like you have a good start - I look forward to seeing another beginner's efforts.

 

Caliken,

Thank you very much for your comments! Looking at your videos, it looks like I may also be writing with a heavy hand and with too little angle between nib and paper, both of which I think would make the ink flow faster (it's probably more likely that it's my fault than the papers' ). I will try printing some larger guidelines on heavy inkjet paper and will give the Gillott 303 and Higgins ink another try. I also ordered one of John Neal Books' "8.5x11 Copperplate Pads" and some of their A4 "Character Paper" in my order last week that should be arriving today - so I'll give those a try also.

 

I think at this point the only club I'm in is the fan club. :roflmho: I'll keep working on it, though. It was seeing your and some of the other members' posts and videos on copperplate that got me interested, and I appreciate your taking the time to offer some advice.

[caliken]

I will try printing some larger guidelines on heavy inkjet paper and will give the Gillott 303 and Higgins ink another try.

maladat,

 

I've just realised that your latest post may have given a clue as to your "feathering" problem. I, too, print my own guidelines on my inkjet printer.

However I discovered that my self-printed guideline sheets have to be left overnight, or the ink feathers quite badly! After a few hours, it's fine. Something in the inkjet process has a temporary effect on the paper.......could this possibly be part of your problem?

 

Character paper is frequently recommended for flex-nibbed writing.

 

caliken

Edited March 22, 2010 by caliken

[caliken]

Madalat,

 

You asked for comments......

 

As someone else has suggested, more slanted guidelines would probably help. Try to point the nib down the guideline (55 degrees for Copperplate) and do whatever is necessary to achieve this - twist your wrist to the right and place the paper further to the right on the desk. It is possible with a straight pen, but much, much easier with an oblique one - that's why they were invented. In Copperplate script all downstrokes follow the same slant and all are about the same weight (degree of flex).

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/ABCDEF.jpg

 

caliken

[maladat]

Wow, thanks for the comments!

 

I have gone back to play with my different papers, and the page I scanned above (done in Sumi ink) was from a preprinted practice pad, and it is some of the worst paper for the feathering problems I have had! The laserjet paper I have is also not very good as far as the feathering goes. I have some heavy inkjet paper that works pretty well as long as I keep the flex strokes narrow. The best paper out of my stash as far as the feathering goes is Clairefontaine 90gsm, which has no feathering at all even for very heavy strokes with the Gillott 303 nib. I guess I'll be using it or some of the paper coming today.

 

I will find a pattern with more slanted guidelines to print and do my best to make myself hold the slant on all the letters. I know if I let myself practice incorrectly I'm in for a lot of pain later trying to correct bad habits. It's hard enough trying to do the slant with an oblique holder, I don't know what I'd do with a straight pen! I have written straight up-and-down my entire life so it's a big change.

[caliken]

I will find a pattern with more slanted guidelines to print and do my best to make myself hold the slant on all the letters. I know if I let myself practice incorrectly I'm in for a lot of pain later trying to correct bad habits. It's hard enough trying to do the slant with an oblique holder, I don't know what I'd do with a straight pen! I have written straight up-and-down my entire life so it's a big change.

Madalat,

 

I've been writing Copperplate script with an oblique penholder for many years, and the slope is now so natural to me, that if I try to write it at a different angle, it feels wrong!

 

 

caliken

Edited March 22, 2010 by caliken

[fifthblackbird]

I will find a pattern with more slanted guidelines to print and do my best to make myself hold the slant on all the letters.

 

Check the pinned "Handwriting Aids" thread at the top of the Penmanship forum. At least one of the listed guidelines was made for copperplate and has slanted guidelines at increments of one x-height

Edited March 22, 2010 by fifthblackbird