Has Baystate Blue damaged your Lamy?

[Possum Hill]

Nope, just hearsay about speculation. See photos linked earlier in this thread.

I checked the pictures. What were they meant to tell me? They were just pictures of Lamy feeds (supposedly) broken by (supposedly) BSB? The Vista picture had such a low contrast it was not really possible to say anything about it, like if it was broken at all.

 

I think it would be beneficial for your mission if you defined what is acceptable as evidence to you and what is not. Instead of, for example, declaring (more or less arbitarily) certain claims as hearsay or speculation by using a set unexplained pictures as a counter argument. Pictures that might or might not have anything to do with actual problem. All we have is your word for it. Basically the same fault you blamed Chemyst for: "We're left basically having to take his word for it.."? I guess what I am trying to say here is that the standards should be same for everyone and everyone should know them. Otherwise it is all just a silly game.

 

What answer would satisfy you as the final solution to the Lamy vs. BSB puzzle? I take it that the answer you believe you have found (environmental stress cracking) is not final enough? What is missing?

 

The pictures are clear enough to strongly indicate that the breaks did not occur at a glued joint. Those to whom that is not apparent need not accept that evidence as useful.

 

As for the feed "supposedly" being broken, "supposedly" by BSB, it's a refreshing (but weird) change of pace to see a suggestion that I'm disparaging a Noodler's product. Can't please anyone, it seems.

 

If you have or know of any actual evidence or experience of glued joints failing in Safari feeds, post it or link to it, then it won't be just speculation or hearsay.

 

As for a final solution, I don't expect one. I expect honest reporting of experience and observation. Members can draw their own conclusions.

 

It appears that you have other interests besides the OP's original question. You're wasting your time on what you consider a silly game.

[johnptc]

what is the least expensive lamy i could test ????????

[Possum Hill]

what is the least expensive lamy i could test ????????

 

A Safari, I suppose. I don't know of a less expensive pen that uses the same feed. If the feed fails, Lamy will replace it for $7.50 (U.S.).

 

If it does fail, we'll have another piece of information, but won't know for sure that it wouldn't have failed if another ink were used.

 

I've recently inked a second Safari with BSB, one that first had Skrip Blue-black and then for a few years Noodler's Legal Lapis. It has lasted through enough use that I can probably assume the feed itself is not faulty. So far (a few days) it's writing just fine.

[tanesiir]

The pictures are clear enough to strongly indicate that the breaks did not occur at a glued joint. Those to whom that is not apparent need not accept that evidence as useful.

 

As for the feed "supposedly" being broken, "supposedly" by BSB, it's a refreshing (but weird) change of pace to see a suggestion that I'm disparaging a Noodler's product. Can't please anyone, it seems.

Indeed. What the pictures don't really tell anything about is whether BSB had whatsoever to do with the Lamys breaking. So by the high standards of evidence you seem to be demanding from others your pictures seem quite worthless. That explains "supposedly"s. I was not trying to shine your image as a neutral impartial researcher. Bad, bad, bad boy, trying to put words in my mouth. Also, OP was not intereseted in your relation to Noodlers so why bring it up again?

 

If you have or know of any actual evidence or experience of glued joints failing in Safari feeds, post it or link to it, then it won't be just speculation or hearsay.

 

As for a final solution, I don't expect one. I expect honest reporting of experience and observation. Members can draw their own conclusions.

 

It appears that you have other interests besides the OP's original question. You're wasting your time on what you consider a silly game.

I do have other interest, you are right, but my interest is tangential to OP's original question. It's about the double standardishness of the evidence in the BSB vs. Lamy case. Instead of letting "members draw their own conclusions" you seem to have some personal issueswith other member here, and there is nothing like light between the lines character assination to play down someone else's arguments/evidence while allowing oneself to pass same level of evidence as a quality stuff. Bad, bad, bad boy for blaming me for having hidden agendas as if it was morally questionable.

 

I don't remember mentioning that I consider silly games a waste of time. I love silly games.

[pen2paper]

repeating my inquiry..

Has anyone asked Lamy about a specific manufacturer failure, in a specific manufacturing run?

Has anyone tested/soaked a feed with detailed observations?

Such a test would include other inks besides BSB/test controls.

[Possum Hill]

The pictures are clear enough to strongly indicate that the breaks did not occur at a glued joint. Those to whom that is not apparent need not accept that evidence as useful.

 

As for the feed "supposedly" being broken, "supposedly" by BSB, it's a refreshing (but weird) change of pace to see a suggestion that I'm disparaging a Noodler's product. Can't please anyone, it seems.

Indeed. What the pictures don't really tell anything about is whether BSB had whatsoever to do with the Lamys breaking. So by the high standards of evidence you seem to be demanding from others your pictures seem quite worthless. That explains "supposedly"s. I was not trying to shine your image as a neutral impartial researcher. Bad, bad, bad boy, trying to put words in my mouth. Also, OP was not intereseted in your relation to Noodlers so why bring it up again?

 

If you have or know of any actual evidence or experience of glued joints failing in Safari feeds, post it or link to it, then it won't be just speculation or hearsay.

 

As for a final solution, I don't expect one. I expect honest reporting of experience and observation. Members can draw their own conclusions.

 

It appears that you have other interests besides the OP's original question. You're wasting your time on what you consider a silly game.

I do have other interest, you are right, but my interest is tangential to OP's original question. It's about the double standardishness of the evidence in the BSB vs. Lamy case. Instead of letting "members draw their own conclusions" you seem to have some personal issueswith other member here, and there is nothing like light between the lines character assination to play down someone else's arguments/evidence while allowing oneself to pass same level of evidence as a quality stuff. Bad, bad, bad boy for blaming me for having hidden agendas as if it was morally questionable.

 

I don't remember mentioning that I consider silly games a waste of time. I love silly games.

The standard of evidence I expect is that people produce some evidence. You still haven't, but we're waiting expectantly.

[BucolicBuffalo]

I doubt very much that a manufacturer will admit to using an inferior plastic in their product. They will simply find another that costs them slightly more and "improve" their product so it does not happen again.

[Possum Hill]

I doubt very much that a manufacturer will admit to using an inferior plastic in their product. They will simply find another that costs them slightly more and "improve" their product so it does not happen again.

+1

 

There are some more possible manufacturing problems besides materials, like poor mold design and poor temperature control during the molding process. We're not likely to ever hear of any of them.

[bpendleton]

Thanks for everyone's replies! As soon as I run out the charge in my existing Pilot Petit1, I'm going to give BSB a shot in my Lamy, after all. If it *does* cause any kind of failure, I'll also do my best to find out what Lamy has to say about it when I send it in for repairs. If not, well, at least it'll be one more vote for the "it isn't always that way" camp.

 

Before I do, though, I'm going to make sure I spic-and-span my Lamy. It's had Noodler's Black, and Noodler's Eternal Hunter Green in it, and, briefly, Borealis Black. Consequently, I want to make sure to clean out any possible deposits. Does anyone have any suggestions for an appropriate solvent to flush with before I load in the BSB? I've given it a thorough water flushing, but, what next? Ammonia, bleach (not at the same time!), or maybe just some rubbing alcohol? What, short of finding a jeweler's cleaner, is going to best get out any gunk that I can't see, and which isn't coming out with a water flush?

[karmakoda]

 

Before I do, though, I'm going to make sure I spic-and-span my Lamy. It's had Noodler's Black, and Noodler's Eternal Hunter Green in it, and, briefly, Borealis Black. Consequently, I want to make sure to clean out any possible deposits. Does anyone have any suggestions for an appropriate solvent to flush with before I load in the BSB? I've given it a thorough water flushing, but, what next? Ammonia, bleach (not at the same time!), or maybe just some rubbing alcohol? What, short of finding a jeweler's cleaner, is going to best get out any gunk that I can't see, and which isn't coming out with a water flush?

 

I would only use water, warm, with a tiny bit of detergent, to flush your Lamy. Using solvent, or strong chemical cleaners, in any pen can cause damage similar to that attributed to Baystate Blue. If you use those cleaning chemicals, how can you be sure that they did not damage the pen, rather than the ink?

Although I have been wary of BSB, I have been using it in two pens for a few weeks to see if any problems arose. The two pens are a Lamy Vista and Pilot 78G.

No problems have arisen at all, and I expected disaster. Contrary to my expectations, I'm growing quite fond of Baystate Blue.

[Lloyd]

I'd disassemble your pen before cleaning (separate the nib and converter from the pen). Then, thoroughly clean as Nathan does:

I religiously rinse out pens with a solution of approx. 50 parts household ammonia, 48 parts tap water, and 2 parts liquid dish soap....between every filling, particularly when changing inks. The mix cleans them very well of the dust that has accumulated from off the paper the nib has crossed over as well as any dried residues - and sometimes using a spray bottle with the same solution upon the nib is even faster than flushing and a soak. (see post #22)

Rub the undersider of the nib and the top of the feed to make sure they are clean, too. Follow up with plain water.

[tanesiir]

The standard of evidence I expect is that people produce some evidence. You still haven't, but we're waiting expectantly.

 

Evidence of what? Your double standards when it comes to evidence? Or the fact that you seem to have some personal agenda against some other member? I feel like I said enough of those subjects for other members to make up their own mind.

 

I don't remember making any other claims requiring some sort of supporting evidence. But who knows, my memory is not what it used to be.

 

Here is a thought for you to ponder in your ivory tower of evidence and personal agendas. Imagine a person who would make it as his/her personal mission to discount every single post you make concerning BSB by repeating basically same mantra: "Possum Hill is a known BSB advocate who has a separate standard of evidence for himself and others when it comes to all things BSB. He also seems to have some personal issues with other member(s?) who are critical of BSB. Therefore everyone should take his BSB facts with a large grain of salt." To support those claims a link to this thread could be included. Would you consider that person as having passed his/her puberty?

 

I went and read some of the threads you had linked in your earliers posts. There was one I found interesting. You wrote some general stuff about the Safari-BSB problem and then finished the post by saying "I wish Lamy would explain what the problem is." (my wording, hopefully not too misleading). My question is: why should LAMY do the explaining instead of Noodler? After all Safaris work just fine with other inks. It would be nice to know what kind of solvents does Noodler add in BSB to make it kill Safaris. Otherwise it is kinda hard for Lamy to explain anything.

Of course this oversight in your original wording might have been corrected in your later posts. And yet, it does leave open the question about the objectivity of your evidence as you have this preformed idea of Lamy being the guilty party.

[Possum Hill]

<br />

<br />The standard of evidence I expect is that people produce some evidence. You still haven't, but we're waiting expectantly.<br />

<br /><br />Evidence of what? Your double standards when it comes to evidence? Or the fact that you seem to have some personal agenda against some other member? I feel like I said enough of those subjects for other members to make up their own mind.<br /><br />I don't remember making any other claims requiring some sort of supporting evidence. But who knows, my memory is not what it used to be.<br /><br />Here is a thought for you to ponder in your ivory tower of evidence and personal agendas. Imagine a person who would make it as his/her personal mission to discount every single post you make concerning BSB by repeating basically same mantra: "<i>Possum Hill is a known BSB advocate who has a separate standard of evidence for himself and others when it comes to all things BSB. He also seems to have some personal issues with other member(s?) who are critical of BSB. Therefore everyone should take his BSB facts with a large grain of salt.</i>" To support those claims a link to this thread could be included. Would you consider that person as having passed his/her puberty? <br /><br />I went and read some of the threads you had linked in your earliers posts. There was one I found interesting. You wrote some general stuff about the Safari-BSB problem and then finished the post by saying "I wish Lamy would explain what the problem is." (my wording, hopefully not too misleading). My question is: why should LAMY do the explaining instead of Noodler? After all Safaris work just fine with other inks. It would be nice to know what kind of solvents does Noodler add in BSB to make it kill Safaris. Otherwise it is kinda hard for Lamy to explain anything.<br />Of course this oversight in your original wording might have been corrected in your later posts. And yet, it does leave open the question about the objectivity of your evidence as you have this preformed idea of Lamy being the guilty party.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

I (and others) would like to know how BSB and Lamy Safari feeds interact. Do you have any experience or evidence to offer?

[bpendleton]

Thanks for everyone's replies! As soon as I run out the charge in my existing Pilot Petit1, I'm going to give BSB a shot in my Lamy, after all. If it *does* cause any kind of failure, I'll also do my best to find out what Lamy has to say about it when I send it in for repairs. If not, well, at least it'll be one more vote for the "it isn't always that way" camp.

 

Well, alas, my BSB in my Lamy experiment is over. No problems to report, just wasn't that happy with the flow of BSB in my XF nibbed Lamy. Perhaps it needs to be tweaked (I certainly can't make out a ray of light coming from between the tines...), but BSB in my Lamy was often very dry, had a few problems starting (mostly first use of the day). Otherwise, staining is minimal (only the convertor, only a little, and I expect it'll get fainter with further ink use). No problems of any kind, though, so far as I can tell.... the feed stayed solid, none of the pen parts besides the converter ever kept any extra blue tint after a simple wipe. This Lamy has done great with plain old Noodler's Black, which is probably what's going back in, once I'm satisfied there's no actual BSB left in this pen.

 

Meanwhile, I received another Jinhao Missile from a super-cheap eBay purchase. Even though the nib is much finer, I've been enjoying BSB in this pen for about a week. Who knew? About $5 including shipping, and, surprisingly, the BSB hasn't left a stain on any of the parts (besides the sac, but who cares?). I think this might be my cheap BSB pen, at least for now. As a plus, this particular pen writes great upside down, meaning I can leave myself minuscule margin notes in BSB. Since I bought BSB to mark up documents, this means I can really pack in the comments even when there's not much space. As a plus, these lines tend to be just dry enough to avoid bleed-through on even the super-cheap copy paper I tend to use, addressing my only real complaint with BSB, that it tends to bleed-through a little too easily on lightweight paper.

 

 

A deeper comment on BSB - though I've had plenty of blue fingers during my just-over-a-month long experiments, they all seem to fade pretty quickly. Perhaps it's because of the alcohol-based instant hand-sanitizer I user regularly when I've just finished changing my baby's diaper? I've tried using some just after my hands first got blue on them, to little effect, but perhaps a little time + several applications has done it. Then again, I've never gotten a direct BSB stain, only bits of it here and there from the rim of the bottle, or from the paper towel while I was wiping the nib after a refill.

[fungm]

I've had a mixed results. The first Lamy a Medium nib Charcoal grey Safari was a bit dry and skipped and stopped writing in mid sentence. So I diluted the BSB as follows, .2ml liquid detergent( tile and bath cleaner), 1ml tap water and 1.8 ml BSB ink. All the skipping stopped and the Lamy became a pretty nice writing instrument. This pen I used for 1 week+ then gave it to a friend.

 

I then bought another Lamy Safari but in Pink. Pen worked for less than 3 days with this ink mixture. The ears holding the nib to the feeder broke, the nib then came loose from the feeder. Took it back to Pen City here in Melbourne. They said I pressed too hard on the nib, hence the breakage. Well I 've been using a fountain pen for a few years now and never broken a pen, so I doubt their diagnosis. Cost me $10 AUD , for a new feeder. I washed the pen out and loaded it with Parker Quink Blue, its working perfectly under my wife's gentle hands.

 

I suspect the Charcoal Lamy from the same pen shop may have been a fake, the nib did not have a "M" stamped on it nor the Lamy name or it was a non Lamy replacement, there was scuff marks on the nib and round the bleeder hole. Which was not present on the Pink Lamy Safari. Was this a case of a none OE part working better than an original?

 

I am using this BSB mixture in my Waterman Hemisphere with a medium nib. Writes wet and broad, but oh so smooth.Light staining on the nib, some on the feeder and converter.Significant bleed through on cheap paper, but none on 80GSM copy paper.If this is the price for writing with BSB , its a light price to pay.

 

I suspect that had BSB been incompatible with my Waterman. I would have searched and searched till I found a fountain pen that could use BSB.

Edited November 11, 2010 by fungm

[mstone]

How long ago did you first load it?

 

It seems, anecdotally, that failures seems to happen fairly quickly. There are far more reports of people whose feeds fail within a few weeks of loading BSB than those who have had the ink loaded for months before failure. It would be interesting to see more data points, but I don't think it would really help predict whether any particular pen will fail.

 

 

What answer would satisfy you as the final solution to the Lamy vs. BSB puzzle? I take it that the answer you believe you have found (environmental stress cracking) is not final enough? What is missing?

 

Any way to predict failure for a particular pen, any explanation of why some fail and some do not, and a definitive answer about whether production changes led to the problems and other production changes resolved the problems. I'm not sure it's possible to answer those questions without data from Lamy (and even then it might not be possible to identify any differences by looking at a sample pen), and it seems unlikely at this point that the data will become available.

Edited November 11, 2010 by mstone

[KCat]

I do not mind the discussion of the Lamy feeds and BSB - however, any attempt to utilize this thread to carry on the discussion in the thread I just closed will result in the closing of this thread.

Edited November 11, 2010 by KCat
KCat jumped to conclusions. 'nuff said?

[Possum Hill]

I've had a mixed results. The first Lamy a Medium nib Charcoal grey Safari was a bit dry and skipped and stopped writing in mid sentence. So I diluted the BSB as follows, .2ml liquid detergent( tile and bath cleaner), 1ml tap water and 1.8 ml BSB ink. All the skipping stopped and the Lamy became a pretty nice writing instrument. This pen I used for 1 week+ then gave it to a friend.

 

I then bought another Lamy Safari but in Pink. Pen worked for less than 3 days with this ink mixture. The ears holding the nib to the feeder broke, the nib then came loose from the feeder. Took it back to Pen City here in Melbourne. They said I pressed too hard on the nib, hence the breakage. Well I 've been using a fountain pen for a few years now and never broken a pen, so I doubt their diagnosis. Cost me $10 AUD , for a new feeder. I washed the pen out and loaded it with Parker Quink Blue, its working perfectly under my wife's gentle hands.

 

 

 

Did your failed feed look like this?

 

Three feeds failed in that pen, and I was using Noodler's Baystate Blue at the time. However, since I didn't compare with another ink in a pen using feeds from the same batch I can't draw too many conclusions.

 

I think I can say that it's unlikely that you were pressing to hard on your nib. I write rather lightly and I was still writing with the pen with the feed as shown in the photo.

 

I've stated elsewhere that I'm satisfied that Lamy had a problem with a run of feeds, but I haven't really reached a conclusion about what the problem was. I probably never will.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I guess the hundred or more here that use BSB with out damage out weigh those 5 or 10 that have ruined pens from it.

 

Me, I believe where there is smoke, there might well be smoke.

 

I certainly am never going to do it to a pen of mine.

 

Well it sounds to me like a great ink for those who buy 10 pens for $10, and got seven that don't work any way....

 

The guy did come out with a cheap piston filler that is BSB safe didn't he?

 

 

It is very interesting to me a very casual student of religion to see the religious fervor attached to this ink.

I can see if we were back in the good old days, of clubs and swords, folks in a tavern would kill, just like they did over if god had three or only two faces.

The world is full of heretics and 'True Believers'.

 

There is a good leg for a Doctor's work, right here....in two or three fields.

 

It's not just Lamy from what I can remember that had problems with this ink.

 

It is the King of Glow in the Dark Inks, and must be defended at all costs. It did not ruin the other 9 of 'my' 10 pens....yet.

Pens are cheap....Long Live The King.

 

 

:hmm1: Thankfully it's a problem I will never have, having read of the smoke, and being a Shading Ink Heretic. As far as I can tell that ink just don't Shade At All.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Bo Bo Olson

[Imzadi]

Just so you know, I don't buy 10 pens for $10. I have used BSB in my M200 for several years. The M200 was my first expensive pen, and If you're afraid of using BSB, well that's okay with those of us who like it.