Is Pelikan 4001 black archieval?

[jpm83]

As the title goes. Is Pelikan 4001 black an archieval? And is there a archieval ink in widely available brands like Pelikan, Parker and Waterman?

 

Janne

[Goodwhiskers]

Pelikan 4001 Black is not advertised as archival, and it is acidic, but no one here has complained about it fading much over the years as long as it isn't exposed to sunlight all day every day. The same is true for Waterman Black and Parker Quink Black (but Quink Black has proven itself a little more sunlight-resistant than the the other two). The blue inks from these brands are known to be vulnerable to fading, especially from sunlight and the sulfur in cheap paper.

 

If you want a better guarantee that the ink will remain legible for generations, go for a carbon black ink (the longest-lasting), an iron gall ink (which takes a few centuries to eat through the paper), or the Noodler's or Private Reserve permanent color.

[FPFan]

Archival implies a neutral ph level. Neutral ph is 7.0 and refers to the paper as well as the ink.

 

Permanence implies waterproof, "bulletproof" (Nathan Tardif's term for resistance to the forger's art,) and fade resistance. While many Noodlers inks carry a bulletproof rating with ph levels hovering around 7.0 it may or may not always refer to archival.

 

A clearer statement as to your purpose in the use of the word archival maybe necessary to determine your use of a particular ink.

Edited February 7, 2010 by FPFan

[Tweel]

They don't describe it as "archival", but Pelikan says that "Black and blue-black ink is very permanent. The ink in files and documents that have been stored in dry and shaded places can be read even after decades."

 

-- Brian

 

Edit: micro-edit

Edited February 8, 2010 by Tweel

[Ondina]

While pH levels for paper that claims to be archival should range around 7, I don't agree that pH neutrality has to do with archival inks. Ferrogalic based inks are the only inks to be legally recognized and used for archival purposes and (such as Registrar's inks) and their pH is acidic. And archival ink is that designed to resist at least a couple hundred years and endure water/high humidity as well as UV exposition.

 

As for Pelikan Black, as has been said above, not claiming is an archival ink, both Black and BB last for many decades under normal storage conditions.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Ondina

[Sandy1]

Hello Janne,

There was considerable discussion on the longevity of inks in some previous Topics.

1. To the best of my knowledge, there is no internationally recognised standard for archival ink. So claims of advertisers, etc. must be taken with a grain of salt.
2. IIRC there was strong support for the bulletproof varieties of Noodler's ink, based on their chemical bonding with the paper.
3. While I do not reject that reasoning, and am not qualified to argue against it, those inks are new and do not have centuries of use to back-up the claims; and there is no approved standard for accelerated aging tests. I also have a disconnect: Why should properties that make an ink bulletproof (immune to forgers, counterfeiters & their ilk) increase endurance against time?
4. I support the use of iron-gall (ferro-gallic) ink, simply because it is a quite old & proven means of making long-lasting inks. Questions have been raised about the actual percentage content of i-g in current inks, and whether or not the acidity found in older i-g inks is no longer a serious problem - it was eating the material upon which it was written - major oops!
5. There was not all that much support for garden variety aniline dye-based inks, yet anecdotal evidence is very strong for those older inks. Many postcards, letters, legal documents, etc. written with FP ink have endured. Yet some practitioners report that some inks start visibly fading within days - yikes!
6. An overriding question about the i-g inks and the aniline dye inks is 'How much have the formulae changed over the years?' For example, the Parker Quink Blue-Black ink box no longer bears the word 'Permanent'. As I've used that ink for years at school & the office, I thought I needed to change inks. I emailed the Quink people and got the most polite answer which essentially conveyed the message that as there is no standard for permanence, we can no longer claim that are inks are permanent. Fair enough. Yet Montblanc continues to use the phrase 'Permanent - for documents' only on their boxes on BlBk ink, which is an i-g formulation.
7. We of the FP community also should address the permanence of some of the new inks, such as the 'nano' inks. Other inks, such as the black carbon inks & the particulate blues seem to be a variation on the pigmented ink theme, but are they really?
8. One also needs to recognise that ink alone does not make a document 'archival'. Very strong consideration as to paper and storage conditions are critical for permanence. And if one wants to make something permanent, perhaps the best way to do that is by duplication & dispersion.

So is Pelikan Black archival? I rather don't think so; ditto for inks of the other manufacturers you mention.

 

However if one wants to extend the life span of a document: use really good acid free or pH-balanced paper with a high rag content, do not use any metal such as staples, paper clips, etc., store in a dry dark place away from mold fungus etc. and insects, vermin & varmints Do not store with other paper, envelopes and things with adhesives, including cardboard and temp. adhesives like postit notes. Store in a sealed acid-free container, such as those made from polyethylene - not wood. ... I think there's lots of resources out there, from museums, conservators, scrap bookers, etc. that can speak with far more authority due to education and experience.

 

Best Regards,

Sandy1

[jpm83]

Thanks for answering. I think that those Pelikan, etc. inks will be good enough for my use for now.

[plunksna]

Most of the inks especially the blacks and blue-blacks will keep for several decades as long as they are stored in decent conditions. Pigment based inks, and ferro-gallic (iron gall) inks have a proven track record of keeping for centuries. As for what additives the various modern inks may have, and what effect these may have on archival storage I don't know. Don't forget that the paper itself is a weak link, and you would need to use a very high quality acid free (rather than buffered) paper. Finally storage conditions have a significant effect.

[jpm83]

BTW how do those fountain pen inks compare to ballpoint pen ink in their archival qualities?

[jpm83]

BTW how do those fountain pen inks compare to ballpoint pen ink in their archival qualities?

[Sholom]

Some random thoughts about ink "permanence". Sandy1's and the other comments are correct. There is no official definition of archivality, and how to measure archivality is a difficult and controversial problem. If you want to get the flavor of what manufacturers who wish to document their claims have to deal with, take a look at http://www.wilhelm-research.com/. They are a leading archivality tester for the photographic and inkjet industries.

 

Archivality really is a systems problem, i.e. everything matters: ink, paper, storage conditions, container materials. Each dye has to be considered on its own, but interactions between dyes can also affect archivality for better or for worse as a high-end inkjet manufacturer found out to their regret back in the early days of the technology. You can put say Noodler's most photo-stable ink on a cheap acidic paper such as was used for paperbacks in the 1950s or in German scientific journals in the late 1800s and a 100 years from now if you can find undarkened sections or large enough fragments of the document the ink will be very legible.

 

There are no good rules by color or dye vs pigment that you can use as a guide to ink archivality. The most that can be said is that on the whole the most stable red dyes are not as stable as the best blue dyes, but the classic blue of many older (and some current) inks both fountain pen and ballpoint is as bad as any of poorer reds. There is no reason for an ink manufacturer to use a pigment or colloidal dye unless they believe that they are making either a more stable ink or an otherwise unavailable color.

 

And remember, light-induced dye fading or discoloration is completely different than fading/discoloration in the dark. The same dye can pass one of these tests and fail the other.

Sholom

[Sandy1]

 

+1

[jpm83]

Thanks for the replies. So an "permanent" fountain pen ink is as permanent as "permanent" ballpoint pen ink?

[vieuxcarre]

In Pelikan ink, Fount India is quite permanent and is a very nice black. Do make sure you flush your pen frequently however...

[kernando]

Thanks for the replies. So an "permanent" fountain pen ink is as permanent as "permanent" ballpoint pen ink?

 

No, ballpoint is grease. It's soluble in alcohol. Some fountain pen inks can beat water, alcohol, etc.

[jpm83]

So how the lightfastnes compare between ballpoint and fountain pen inks? Sorry about my bad english I´m from Finland.

[mrt77]

So how the lightfastnes compare between ballpoint and fountain pen inks? Sorry about my bad english I´m from Finland.

 

I have read that 12757-2 DOC rated ballpoint refills are supposed to resist fading and are waterproof. But as to how they hold up compared to fountain pen ink, it depends on the FP ink. And storage, etc. Also I've only recently started to use these refills for ballpoint writing, so I can't vouch for how archival they are.

 

I have some notebook that are almost 20 years old, written with a cheap Bic or Papermate on cheap paper, and they've held up really well. But they were stored away in a dark bin somewhere. YMMV.

 

It seems that Fisher Space Pen refills, especially the black ones resist fading really well. Somebody here put a piece of paper in a window for 18 months and, iirc, the only inks that survived were Noodlers bulletproof inks and the black ink Space Pen. Pretty amazing.

[Edgar Allan Bo]

They don't describe it as "archival", but Pelikan says that "Black and blue-black ink is very permanent. The ink in files and documents that have been stored in dry and shaded places can be read even after decades."

 

-- Brian

 

Edit: micro-edit

 

Few days ago a DIN A4 big paper on which I wrote in Pel Black / Blue and Blue-Black was completely under the water for ca. 10 hours, after I found it the only text left was the one written in Pelikan Blue-Black (it was VERY visible, just slighty washed off), everything else was gone...

[jpm83]

Thanks for all for answering.