And Show Us Your Rare Sheaffer's

[kirchh]

Daniel, would you care to take a guess at how many "sure things" in the fountain pen world were later debunked as new evidence emerges? All one has to do is read the old books in this field and it becomes apparent.

Many -- the debunking of such claims as that Sheaffer didn't make flat-top Lifetime pens without gold-filled trim or cap bands is evidence of what you are describing. That's why I avoid claiming positions as "sure things", preferring to qualify assertions as, for example, likely, unlikely, reasonable, or per my experience and observation. It's important to be open-minded, and to reject mistaken positions when evidence to the contrary is discovered, as I'm sure you'll agree.

 

As for statistics, I had to take it in college as well as Pearce. The issue in this one small sliver of our discussion is that a Scientific Sample must be chosen before any conclusion can be drawn. In politics, a company doing the poll lays out a careful plan to question certain numbers of each group involved (ie gender, ethnicity, culture etc). Very often to gain an accurate sampling, two polls are taken at the same time and compared to establish the variance. It would be lunacy to merely stop after calling 5 or 6 random people and proclaim the answer. Mark Twain's words ring true, "There are lies, damnable lies and statistics".

As you have taken statistics (and presumably probability as well), you can lay out the mathematical basis for your assertion that it cannot be claimed with statistical significance that all five random samples selected share an attribute implies that the attribute is typical (defined as occurring in 20% or more of the population). I would also be most interested in your assertion that in general, a sample size of 0.1% of the subject population cannot produce a statistically significant result. Merely characterizing a survey's characteristics as "lunacy" without providing a shred of supporting math is, to put it mildly, uncompelling, and your embedded assertion that the ratio of sample size to population is the determinant of statistical significance calls into question your grasp of statistical theory. I hope you will explain that concept with some references so that it can be fairly examined and assessed.

 

Your discussion regarding political polling ignores several critical factors, and thus is of little use in determining whether the present survey is statistically significant. Such surveys generally need a 95% confidence interval of 3% or so, and thus need a sample size in the 1,000 range (n ~= 1/B^2). This calculation assumes the maximum variance of p = 0.5, of course. In our case, however, we are merely seeking statistical significance of whether an observed percentage of 100% implies a population percentage of greater than 20% -- a dramatically lower standard than a 95% confidence interval of 3% around a particular percentage. In addition, we can reasonably assume a random sample. All those factors, of course, serve to drastically reduce the threshhold for n to produce a statistically significant result. I look forward to examining the calculations you used.

 

(The quote you cite, widely attributed to Twain but not actually coined by him, is "...damned lies...", by the way.)

 

Also, your penchant for avoiding the issued being discussed and branching off on some tangent to avoid the issue at hand is pretty typical of your discourse. Try and stay focused

Please refrain from this sort of ad-hominem insult. Thanks.

 

The issue being discussed is the configuration of solid gold Balance-style Sheaffer pens. My comments address that issue directly. You challenged one of my statements on the basis of a statistical criterion; clearly, you didn't consider that challenge to be "branching off on some tangent to avoid the issue at hand ". However, if you now claim that my head-on consideration of that challenge is a tangent, it raises questions about whether your standards are shifting to suit.

 

In any event, I await the resolution of the matter you raised of statistical significance in the instant case. Again, the parameters are five random samples each of which exhibits the same attribute, and the question is whether this result is statistically significant (i.e. is unlikely to be observed by chance alone) when taken to indicate that the attribute is present in more than 20% of the population.

 

--Daniel

Edited April 27, 2007 by kirchh

[kirchh]

Kirchh said, "I don't understand this observation at all -- I certainly did not claim that somehow the number of pens I'd seen was evidence for a particular manufacturing date."

 

In fact you started this whole manufactured argument with the comment, "This is the typical configuration of the all-gold Balance-style pen. Sheaffer used this clip style on 14K pens they sold well into the 1940s."

Excellent -- we agree that I never claimed that the number of pens I'd seen was evidence for a particular manufacturing date. As the quote you present unambiguously shows, I stated that Sheaffer used the round-ball clip on 14K pens they sold well into the 1940s. Glad we cleared that up.

 

That's total BS and you have nothing to support it. In fact, all the evidence currently available points to the pens being made in the 1930s. And please don't cop out and claim you were saying they were being SOLD during that time and not made.

How curious. You seem to be claiming that I wrote "sold", but I didn't mean "sold" at all -- I meant "made". You then proceed to attack the statement you altered to have a different meaning.

 

I'm afraid if you insist on altering the clear meaning of my words -- or, really, the words themselves -- you and I will be unable to have an honest, constructive discussion.

 

Please refrain from such characterizations of my statements as "total BS". Let's have a civil discussion. As to your assertion that I "have nothing to support" the notion that Sheaffer sold pens of this style well into the 1940s, I don't see how you could possibly know what evidence I possess. Were you aware of the example with a 1943 presentation engraving?

 

That wouldn't be in keeping with your claim that, "Though the manufacturer's literature may give that impression -- they were trying to sell the newer version -- what was actually being MADE, assembled, and sold is usually quite different.

This is baffling. The quote of mine that you supply clearly includes the words "...and sold". I really have no response other than to advise you to re-read the statement with a bit more care.

 

It would make a lot more sense to say that Sheaffer made a stock of them over a year or two and then sold them when an order came in. Perhaps even adding whatever nib and feed were current at the time.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it would make a lot more sense"; more sense than what? As I clearly stated, I believe Sheaffer sold these into the 1940s.

 

You see, this is called reason and logic. I await your next post where you tear off on a tangent designed to divert attention from the issues at hand.

Again I must request that you refrain from descending to such sarcasm and insult. Please recognize that it is not in the least constructive, and the purpose of these threads is constructive exploration of a topic.

 

Oh, and I'm still waiting for a picture of the pen Roger says you have.

I'll try to dig it out for some pictures when I get a chance. It's around here somewhere...

 

--Daniel

Edited April 27, 2007 by kirchh

[kirchh]

Roger's had a tough couple of months with audit season and all, so he deserves some nice scenery. No long debate needed -- just relax and enjoy the pretty color; minutiae are overrated anyway.

 

--Daniel

[Roger W.]

Daniel;

 

Very cute! I could make a cute pen too. Why don't you drill a hole in the cap and pop a little white mushroom in it? What's it been now...5 years since the last one ebayed...if I only knew then what I know now. That's right! and every week I'd be finding some new excuse to post pictures of it too! Oh, what might have been...

 

Roger W.

[kirchh]

Daniel;

 

Very cute! I could make a cute pen too. Why don't you drill a hole in the cap and pop a little white mushroom in it? What's it been now...5 years since the last one ebayed...if I only knew then what I know now. That's right! and every week I'd be finding some new excuse to post pictures of it too! Oh, what might have been...

 

Roger W.

I'm not sure what you mean about "making" a cute pen. Why would I have to "make" this pen ?

 

--Daniel

Edited April 28, 2007 by kirchh

[ebrian]

But we digress -

R46C1/2

Red hard rubber - mint - with price band

http://showcase.netins.net/web/dytis/310.jpg

[david i]

Nice!

 

Had the smaller one with barrel price band. Sold it at Ohio in Nov. Have one like yours, nice, but hardly mint stickered.

 

d

 

[Roger W.]

Daniel;

 

The red snorkel is a non-white dot vermillion saratoga cap with barrel sporting a non-standard Valiant/Sentinel triumph nib. Non-white dots are standard open nibs which is not to say that they didn't come factory as you have it as all the parts are interchangeable and could have been special ordered. Nice setup on the picture though. Me thinks the cap band is too short for you to be holding back the genuine article.

 

Roger W.

[kirchh]

Daniel;

 

The red snorkel is a non-white dot vermillion saratoga cap with barrel sporting a non-standard Valiant/Sentinel triumph nib. Non-white dots are standard open nibs which is not to say that they didn't come factory as you have it as all the parts are interchangeable and could have been special ordered. Nice setup on the picture though.

Are you saying the pen wasn't produced with that nib? If so, what pen could the nib be from?

 

--Daniel

Edited April 28, 2007 by kirchh

[kirchh]

But we digress -

R46C1/2

Red hard rubber - mint - with price band

Yummy! Was that Al's? His was too pricey for me.

 

--Daniel

[Roger W.]

Daniel;

 

The other possibility is that you have a fiesta sentinel with a vermillion cap. Sentinels are relatively common and the two colors aren't that far off but, you don't get a cap with a white dot.

 

The pen of Eddies came off the bay some time ago and I don't think it was Al's (came out of a New York apartment) but I don't know as I can dig up the record on it - remember what it cost though - ouch!

 

Roger W.

[kirchh]

Daniel;

 

The other possibility is that you have a fiesta sentinel with a vermillion cap. Sentinels are relatively common and the two colors aren't that far off but, you don't get a cap with a white dot.

Cap is a perfect color match...

 

--Daniel

 

[Roger W.]

Daniel;

 

Then you have a vermillion barrel that should sport an open nib by definition (Sheaffer documentation says it should be so - don't blame me if you want it some other way). Any snorkel barrel will fit any snorkel nib - no mystery here. Your cap is that of a non white dot pen as the band is narrow (else you've photoshopped the whole thing).

 

Roger W.

[kirchh]

Daniel;

 

Then you have a vermillion barrel that should sport an open nib by definition (Sheaffer documentation says it should be so - don't blame me if you want it some other way). Any snorkel barrel will fit any snorkel nib - no mystery here. Your cap is that of a non white dot pen as the band is narrow (else you've photoshopped the whole thing).

 

Roger W.

It is a Vermillion Snorkel. It's interesting, because it's Canadian, and it's NOS. Did dealers make them up like this, or were there Canadian divergences from US configurations, as with so many earlier lines?

 

--Daniel

P.S. No alteration has been made to the image.

Edited April 29, 2007 by kirchh

[JeB75]

Okay---So every now and then one get's lucky---This being a last weekend find at a house sale---I found it in old secretary a friend of mine was looking at---It was terribly tarnished being sterling so I ask seller if the pen was also for sale?---she says, why not?---I ask how much and she says---Give me 10 bucks and we'll call it a deal---I didn't hesitate forking over a sawbuck---A deal indeed!...I've polished it up and she's a real beauty---can't decide to keep it of take it to the Chicago pen Show this weekend and swap it?---Any takers?---JeB

ShafGC1.bmp

ShafGC2.bmp

Edited May 5, 2007 by JeB75

[Guest PeteWK]

Okay---So every now and then one get's lucky---This being a last weekend find at a house sale---I found it in old secretary a friend of mine was looking at---It was terribly tarnished being sterling so I ask seller if the pen was also for sale?---she says, why not?---I ask how much and she says---Give me 10 bucks and we'll call it a deal---I didn't hesitate forking over a sawbuck---A deal indeed!...I've polished it up and she's a real beauty---can't decide to keep it of take it to the Chicago pen Show this weekend and swap it?---Any takers?---JeB

ShafGC1.bmp

 

 

Hi Jeb. The pen is a late 1980s or early 1990s Sheaffer Grande Connaisseur in Sterling Silver. It was the top of a very nice pen line. Its worth about 400 mint in box and maybe 275 to 300 like you have it so long as it doesn't have any dents or dings. Nice find for 10 bucks, that's for sure. Regards and welcome to the FPN,

 

PeteWK

[penpalace]

Hi all,

 

I figured after drooling at many of the Sheaffer's posted on here I would take a picture or two of some of my more scarce Sheaffer pens. I remember when I first started to collect being taken with Sheaffer Flattops and Balances, their design and colours, and of course valuations from the 1st price guide I purchased. I remember looking at the flattops and seeing the different colours and values, and was very surprised with I came to the cherry red flattops and how high they were valued. Now after several years of collecting I understand why, one good reason being they are quite scarce.

 

Here is a picture of my Cherry red Sheaffer pieces, there is also a rhr flattop pencil there too, my only orange Sheaffer.

 

 

Pearce.

Edited June 6, 2007 by penpalace

[penpalace]

Here is a single picture of one of the pens, a Service pen. The nib is quite small with just a 2 stamped on it.

 

I'd love to see some more Cherry Red oddball pens, I'm sure some of you have a few.

 

Pearce.

Edited June 6, 2007 by penpalace

[sheafferkid]

This is my beautiful, quite unused, but not mint, Sheaffer's Snorkel Crest pen and pencil ensemble! As most of you Sheaffer's guys know, there were only 4 models that cost more than this pen. In 1954, this set sold for $34 which is now, if I remember correctly, about $270. I'm awaiting replies about the fine nib on this pen I would like to swap for a medium. That post can be found in the marketplace. Anyways, its a beautiful set and I'm very happy to have it!

 

Evan

 

PS I hope I got the resizing thing right!!

Edited May 10, 2007 by sheafferkid

[Guest PeteWK]

This is my beautiful, quite unused, but not mint, Sheaffer's Snorkel Crest pen and pencil ensemble! As most of you Sheaffer's guys know, there were only 4 models that cost more than this pen. In 1954, this set sold for $34 which is now, if I remember correctly, about $270. I'm awaiting replies about the fine nib on this pen I would like to swap for a medium. That post can be found in the marketplace. Anyways, its a beautiful set and I'm very happy to have it!

 

Evan

 

PS I hope I got the resizing thing right!!

 

 

 

 

Hi Evan. Just a reminder that if you get a medium nib the snorkel tube might not line up with the underside of it. Not all of them line up and enough of a variance can lead to poor ink flow. The ideal situation is to get a nib and rebuilt snorkel to go along with it. Regards,

 

PeteWK