Is An 'italic' The Same As A 'calligraphy' Nib?

[inkyfingr]

Okay, I ordered a Lamy Safari with what was described as a "medium italic nib". It arrived, and to my surprise it was a 1.5 mm calligraphy nib. I'm not trying to paint the walls with this thing, just give my lab notebook a little more flair.

 

The company that I ordered from says that 'italic' and 'calligraphy' are the same thing and that a medium italic should be 1.5 mm wide. Where I disagreed was in regard to the sizing. I thought that a "medium italic" nib would be on the same general size as a standard medium nib. There was no mention of 'calligraphy' anywhere in the description of the pen.

 

Am I completely off base? Does anyone else find this a little misleading? Anyone want a bright orange Safari with a 1.5 mm nib?

[Johnny Appleseed]

I would consider it a misunderstanding, not misleading. Did the nib you receive say "Calligraphy" vs "italic", or does the company offer the two options separately? I know of no solid rule about the definition of "italic" vs "calligraphy", except that "calligraphy" is sometimes used for a steel italic nib with no hard alloy tipping.

 

Italic nibs are often larger than their round-nib counterparts. What size is a "medium" vs a "fine" is not something that is particularly clearly defined - even with round-nibs it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. It is best to clarify what the line-size of the nib is before purchasing. I thought that Lamy always put the nib width on their italic nibs (or at least everyone says "I ordered my Safari 1.1mm italic" etc.)

 

Some italic nibs do define a "medium italic" as closer to a standard "medium" - but nearly all italic and stub nibs are wider than their round-nib counterparts. Richard Binder, who is one of the most careful nib-grinders out there when it comes to defining his nib sizes, defines a standard western medium as producing a .6mm line, and his medium italic to be .9mm.

 

John

[Inka]

The LAMY 1.5mm Italic is more of a Cursive Italic, more of a chisel-tip with rounded edges and corners so as not to snag as easily as a Crisp Italic and it's a joy to use.

I have one and write with it daily, so I'm speaking from experience, plus I also have Stub, Crisp Italic, Cursive Italic, and nearly every other nib size/type you can think of.

 

The word "Calligraphy" is not, I repeat NOT a form of nib shape or nib-grind, it is an art-form expressed using specific writing when done in an expressive and skillful manner.

So calling a nib a Calligraphy nib is not a mistake, not so much a misnomer, it's merely a descriptive term for the style of writing that can be achieved and what the nib was designed to do.

It has little to do with the grind, while Italic or in the case of the LAMY 1.5mm I have it's more of a Cursive Italic since a Crisp Italic has very sharp corners and edges to provide sharper lines and more variation.

 

If you're to write a line from side to side with a LAMY 1.5mm Italic it does indeed write closer to what a typical Medium nib writes, may even write Fine, while on the wide side or "flats" it writes bolder than the average Broad and this is normal.

I can fully understand why anyone might "mistake" the mid-range Italic to possibly write like a mid-range Medium nib, but this simply isn't the case, which is why they stamp the nibs with 1.1mm/1.5mm/1.9mm and not something like FI/MI/BI or similar.

I think this is why most people here recommend getting the 1.1mm Italic from LAMY, as it's a better choice for a daily-hand nib.

Going larger, such as my 1.5mm or even to the bigger 1.9mm will give a return of very wide lines from thin lines and will also deplete your ink supply in record time too if used as a "daily-writer".

LAMY Italics are most definitely more for "Calligraphy" or elegant writing and not just to add a little flare to your daily-hand, sorry but it's true.

 

I can provide writing examples and comparisons too but that will take more time to do, to scan, to upload, to attach and so forth.

What you have is a nib that can be used to write elegant letters, to make fancy notations or signatures, even makes for a gorgeous address label unlike a standard nib will provide.

I hope this all makes more sense now.

[Chthulhu]

What Inka said. :-)

 

(I love it when I finish a post and find out that someone else posted much the same thing while I was typing! <G>)

Edited September 21, 2009 by Chthulhu

[RLTodd]

Yes.

 

But that doesn't mean there is a ISO standard out there, or ever will be.

 

I thought the Lamy nibs had rounded corners and were more of a "cursive italic" (another word that is kind of loose) than straight edged.

[Inka]

...

 

(I love it when I finish a post and find out that someone else posted much the same thing while I was typing! <G>)

I know, spooky too isn't it???

You've beaten me to the draw many times, with pretty much word-for-word what I was typing and/or thinking.

Too funny!

[Inka]

 

I thought the Lamy nibs had rounded corners and were more of a "cursive italic" (another word that is kind of loose) than straight edged.

They are, very well polished corners and edges and they write fast and smooth, not at all so unforgiving as a Crisp Italic would be.

You're spot-on there.

[FrankB]

As Inka said, calligraphy is an art form. Calligraphy can include italic writing, hence italic nibs, flex nib writing like Spencerian or Copperplate, brush writing, bamboo styluses, and a variety of other mediums. So an italic nib can be used in calligraphy, but it does not define "calligraphy."

 

I think a trip to Richard Binder's website will prove informative. He has a pretty good glossary of pen terms that will be helpful. I think it is fair to say "italic" style nibs have three levels - crisp, or formal, italic with sharp edges; cursive italic with more rounded edges; and stub with rounded edges.

 

I use italic nibs on all three levels for both ornamental writing and daily writing. There is a difference in the amount of line variation, but in all cases the flat surfaces of the nibs allow more of the nib to touch the surface of the paper, and I feel much more in control of my penmanship. I end up drawing, or "painting," my letters which leads to far better legibility than if I scrawl a quick message with a ball point nib.

 

I like the Safari 1.5mm italic nib. As I said above, I can use it for daily writing. I would suggest you give it a try. You might like it more than you imagine. Just remember to s-l-o-w down and give the nib a chance.

 

Good luck.

[Randal6393]

And if you decide you do not want to live with the 1.5 mm Italic nib, you may buy another nib that suits you more. The standard Lamy nib sizes are XF, F, M, or B. The Italic sizes are 1.1 mm, 1.5mm, or 1.9 mm.

 

If you contact the sales division of the company that sold you the pen, they may be able to help you exchange your 1.5 mm Italic nib for one that would suit you more.

 

It is very easy to change out a Lamy nib, just requires Scotch tape and a bit of patience. Give the board here a Search to find out more.

 

Enjoy,

[Silvermink]

You might be happier with something like a 0.6mm or 0.8mm italic. Lamy doesn't offer them that narrow, though.

[ebird732]

I've just tried a Lamy 1.9mm italic nib. It writes beautifully. So I think I'll get a cursive Italic from Richard Binder. The problem is I plan to use it for daily writing, and I'm not sure if an XF or F (0.5/0.7mm) italic can still write as smoothly as a round nib?

[Silvermink]

I've just tried a Lamy 1.9mm italic nib. It writes beautifully. So I think I'll get a cursive Italic from Richard Binder. The problem is I plan to use it for daily writing, and I'm not sure if an XF or F (0.5/0.7mm) italic can still write as smoothly as a round nib?

 

I'd get a stub, not a cursive, if you want something really smooth for daily writing. The thing with italic nibs is generally that the sharper the corners are, the more they catch on the paper (leading to the impression of lack of smoothness), but the more line variation you get.

 

Italic nibs of any sort generally aren't as smooth as round nibs. In fact, given the shape they have to be to give any line variation, I don't think it's theoretically possible for an italic nib to be as smooth as a round nib of a similar stroke width, all other things being equal. I find that the 0.6mm Binder stub I have in my VP is plenty smooth enough for everyday writing.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Silvermink

[Chthulhu]

I've just tried a Lamy 1.9mm italic nib. It writes beautifully. So I think I'll get a cursive Italic from Richard Binder. The problem is I plan to use it for daily writing, and I'm not sure if an XF or F (0.5/0.7mm) italic can still write as smoothly as a round nib?

 

If you want to play a bit, pick up one of the Pilot Plumix pens; they have a fine italic stub that writes quite nicely for a very inexpensive (US$6.00) pen. Target stores seem to be the only place to get them in the US.

[Inka]

@ inkyfingr;

 

Not seeing where you're located in your Profile.

Would be a good idea to add it there so we know where you're at, makes it much easier to offer advice based on your location.

Anyway, some members here would be most likely to trade another LAMY nib for your 1.5mm Italic, including me if I don't get mine replaced by the Vendor I'd bought it from.

Mine has an intermittent flow problem, could be the nib, the feed, the LAMY ink I'm using, or something else entirely, so I'll need to narrow down more while it's still within their return policy time-frame.

 

I could most certainly fix any nib myself, I do it all the time, but since it's been purchased not long ago it's better if I leave it as-is so they'll take it back unaltered.

I'd even be willing to make yours into a finer Cursive Italic, possibly even free of charge if you pay the shipping both ways, once again it would help greatly to know where you are located to give you this offer.

Many Vendors will just send you a replacement nib, some even send you one that's finer such as the 1.1mm Italic for you to try and may even tell you to keep the one you have and still send you another one for free!

So if you've just purchased it [as it seems that you've done], try contacting your Vendor ASAP and ask if they'll do a swap for the finer 1.1mm Italic LAMY nib for you to at least try.

It's worth a shot!

[inkyfingr]

Thanks for the advice Inka. To answer your question, I'm in Houston, TX. It used to say so on my profile, but I guess it got dropped with the re-vamping of the web site.

 

I also like to modify nibs. I usually make mediums into stub italics. When I saw this add for a Lamy with a medium italic I thought, "Hey, maybe I'll try a factory italic." Then this thing shows up with a nib as big as a latreen shovel... Lesson learned. Just make my own italic nibs.

[Inka]

...I also like to modify nibs.

Howdy, Texan!

Yeah, all of our Locations disappeared after the Board change.

I had reset mine to show on this Board when things were transferred, but something here changed as well and all the Locations disappeared again for some reason.

Oh well, that's why some of us are just putting it under our Avatars, until such time as the Location setting gets fixed, that is if it gets fixed.

 

On modifying your own nibs [cool!], it would be pretty easy to grind down the sides of the 1.5mm to make it thinner from side-to-side, then round-grind the corners and outer edges and smooth same.

As inexpensive as the replacement nibs are it might not hurt to just get the 1.1mm, or maybe buy a Medium or Broad and grind it into a smooth-writing Stub?

The Mediums are awesome-smooth already, probably one of the nicest LAMY Safari nibs out-of-the-gate, but they're more rounded on the bottom and don't have the grind for the line variations you're seeking.

 

I'd still give the Vendor a call and see if you can just have them ship you another nib, that is if you bought it from a LAMY dealer/vendor.

You never know until you try; ask and ye may receive, maybe even a free replacement, ya never know.

[ebird732]

I'd get a stub, not a cursive, if you want something really smooth for daily writing. The thing with italic nibs is generally that the sharper the corners are, the more they catch on the paper (leading to the impression of lack of smoothness), but the more line variation you get.

Thanks. Do you think the Lamy is more of a Cursive Italic or a Stub?

[Inka]

Or if you decide you just don't want or like the pen & 1.5mm Italic nib, it's still in like-new condition w/o damage [i don't care if it's been inked], PM me and maybe I'll work something out with you.

I wouldn't mind having it, especially the color you'd mentioned; I really like my Vista but a Safari would be a nice addition as I'm finding myself being hooked on the style/fit/size of these pens and only wish I'd bought one years ago.

So let me know if you don't want it, maybe I can trade you some inks, I have some unopened bottles of Noodler's and several opened I can put in Nalgene bottles, maybe something entirely different I have and you'd like, or give me a price via PM and I might just buy it from you straight-up.

[Inka]

... Do you think the Lamy is more of a Cursive Italic or a Stub?

Some call it a Stub because it's basically flat along the front edge.

I'[d] call it more of a Cursive Italic personally, since it slopes gently toward the tip and rolls upward, more like a Cursive Italic, kind of a "Hybrid" or "Cross-Breed" sitting somewhere in between.

There's no thick tipping you'd find on a Stub, the tines are nearly the same thickness from the back of the nib slot to the tip, just a little thicker at the tips, more like a class of its' own.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Inka

[Silvermink]

I think of the Lamy as more of a cursive, too. I have a Lamy 1.5 here somewhere but don't really use it - it's too big for my usual writing.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Silvermink