"PdAG"?

[cfclark]

Silver core, palladium coated. Palladium is more expensive than gold. PdAg nibs were priced lower than the solid 14k nibs IIRC within the snorkel lineup.

No, an alloy of palladium & silver. Palladium only rose in price with the introduction of the automotive catalytic converter in the 1970s ; before that (&, indeed, now), it was generally substantially less costly than either platinum or gold. Today Pd is in the neighbourhood of $240, with gold at $925 & platinum at $1130.

 

I know Platinum (Pt, for you Periodic Table fans) is used in catalytic converters; is Pd as well?

[montblancdude]

Palladium is the 46th element on the peroid table, one of the Platinum Group.

Palladium is not an element.

 

It in fact is an element, I didn't know this either but I just checked.

[Roger W.]

Publius;

 

Certainly some salesmanship in the ad copy but, Sheaffer had no problem running it in 1955 and it is the exact wording as the original 1953 catalogue. I think the nibs have gold in their content as with "Palladium-Silver" it makes more sense for the ad copy to omit gold rather than include it and if it were, in what would have been a glaring error, in 1953 it would have been fixed in the 1955 run. As to the exact content of the alloy being Palladium, sterling and 14K gold or some other mix of silver and gold this wasn't exactly necessary for ad copy (and may have been a trade secret for their exact alloy anyway). So when it said 14K I took it to mean there is some gold content wheather it was 14K or 24K or some other gold alloy used for the final alloy. Unless something is found in the Sheaffer archives the exact constitution of the alloy will have no other printed source from Sheaffer.

 

Roger W.

[publius]

The best thing would be to have a quantitative analysis done. If anybody would be willing to contribute a badly damaged PdAg nib, it wouldn't be too hard to have it assayed, I should think. I recently got an Imperial III for $20, but I'm reluctant to sacrifice a working nib, & in any case it's gold-plated, which would mess up the results. Mr. Binder's site asserts that the PdAg nibs are a binary alloy containing between 40% & 95% Pd, depending on the specimen — it would be good to know where he obtained this information.

 

I know Platinum (Pt, for you Periodic Table fans) is used in catalytic converters; is Pd as well?

The catalytic properties of palladium are similar to those of platinum, & it is used in similar applications, including the catalytic converter. The one occasion on which Pd went above $1000/oz, about 1980 as I recall, was caused by the automobile companies panic-buying in the face of threatened supply stringencies. Edited July 8, 2009 by publius

[RLTodd]

Publius;

 

Glad to oblige. Taken directly from the 1955 catalogue -

 

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/Palladium1.jpg

 

As far as it making sense, Sheaffer had lots of 14K around maybe they felt it made a better alloy.

 

Roger W.

 

FWIW

 

I interpret this writing as meaning the Statesman model contains the combination, it has a gold cap band & clip, and not the alloy of the nib.

 

YMMV

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

some thoughts.......

[...]

2) During WW2 gold became a strategic material. I believe that was the start of the use of the PdAg alloy in nibs, which was continued on by Sheaffer for some time.

 

3) The gold content in the nib is so small that I believe the PdAg nibs were more of a marketing tool to fill a price point by Sheaffer than anything else.

 

4) The only reason gold is used behind the iridium or other alloy point is because it is (relatively) non corrosive and perceived as valuable by the buyer (pens started as a jeweler's product).

 

5) Since the engineers figured out how to make stainless steel non-corrosive enough, PdAg no longer makes marketing sense, and so is gone.

 

Couple of points in response:

 

2. During WW2 gold and silver were not strategic materials in the US. Steel, brass and copper were, which is why low end manufacturers like Wearever started using gold nibs instead of steel nibs, Esterbrook made some (hard to find) pens with Silver-palladium trim and palladium alloy nibs, and Parker and Sheaffer both used vermeil (gold over silver) for trim. Also, I believe the first Sheaffer PdAg nibs were in the Snorkel line around 1950, and thus significantly after war-era material shortages would have been an issue - though they may have gotten the idea from war-era use of palladium by Esterbrook or other manufacturers.

 

3. Not sure what you mean about the gold content being small - do you mean as a percentage of the cost of the pen? The material cost of a 14K nib was probably a minor portion of the cost of the pen, though in the long run it could add up - note that Sheaffer used 12K nibs in the WASP pens, the difference in cost of material being miniscule on a per-pen bases, but the total savings to the production line significant enough the warrent the change. However, I would agree that PdAg nibs were about a price point more than anything - offering an alternative that was cheaper than the 14K nib in 2-3 different trim levels.

 

4. and 5. The non-corrosive qualities of gold were absolutely essential when they first started putting it behind the iridium of nibs, and continued to be so up until about 20 years before the introduction of the PdAg nibs, when sufficiently non-corrosive stainless steel became avaliable (eg Esterbrook nibs). Gold nibs had a very utilitarian origin in the search for a replacement for disposable quills, not because they started as a jewlery item. After that it remained tradition, in part because of perceived value, for upper-end pens, while steel nibs were considered only acceptable for lower-line pens. Note that Sheaffer was selling steel-nibbed pens in their Fineline and Tip-dip lines at the same time as they were selling the PdAg nibs in the Snorkel line - the technical side of making quality steel nibs had been resolved, it was mainly a matter of perception for the higher-end models. I would concur that PdAg dropped out of production when it no longer had the marketing value, but I suspect that was more of an issue of perception rather than technical development - non-corrosive stainless nibs were around long before PdAg dropped out of production.

 

John

Edited July 8, 2009 by Johnny Appleseed

[Roger W.]

RLTodd;

 

I thought you could be on to something but, no, the discription is for the palladium-silver point to contain those metels as there isn't any "sterling" anywhere else on the pen and actually only rolled gold on the clip and ring so 14K would not be used (nor ever was used) for rolled gold either.

 

Roger W.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Roger W.

[DonDewey]

The best thing would be to have a quantitative analysis done. If anybody would be willing to contribute a badly damaged PdAg nib, it wouldn't be too hard to have it assayed, I should think. I recently got an Imperial III for $20, but I'm reluctant to sacrifice a working nib, & in any case it's gold-plated, which would mess up the results. Mr. Binder's site asserts that the PdAg nibs are a binary alloy containing between 40% & 95% Pd, depending on the specimen — it would be good to know where he obtained this information.

 

I could non-destructively test and return (for free) a nib if somebody were interested. The technique isn't absolutely quantitative, but should be within a few % for all elements in question. A nib only (no feed) would be best.

[RLTodd]

On above...

 

2) Yes, I was wrong, gold was not a strategic material.

 

3) Yes, the cost of gold used in the pen relative to the cost of the pen. The important issue is postioning to the price point.

 

Not sure how much of a corrosion issue exisited with the early stainless steel pens. This would be after the analine ink came in. After all writers used spring steel nibs with the iron gaul inks from the time of their mass production introduction, 1830ish, to replace the quills.

 

 

[ZeissIkon]

Not sure how much of a corrosion issue exisited with the early stainless steel pens. This would be after the analine ink came in. After all writers used spring steel nibs with the iron gaul inks from the time of their mass production introduction, 1830ish, to replace the quills.

 

The sulfate level in 18th-19th century iron-gall inks was sufficient to guarantee any metal less noble than gold would corrode pretty rapidly. India ink would induce corrosion much more slowly, but even this roughly pH neutral ink contained water, which was sufficient to promote corrosion of carbon steel. Gold took over for nibs when pens started to come with a nib permanently installed because of its corrosion resistance -- and because tipping with platinum group metals allowed a gold nib to wear better than a steel pen.

[Silvermink]

I'm always a little skeptical about accepting ad copy as proof, given how much of it both in the past and nowadays seems to be iffy re: factual content. It'd be interesting to have a nib assayed.

[Johnny Appleseed]

Not sure how much of a corrosion issue exisited with the early stainless steel pens. This would be after the analine ink came in. After all writers used spring steel nibs with the iron gaul inks from the time of their mass production introduction, 1830ish, to replace the quills.

Corrosion was a significant issue. The steel dip nibs from the 1800s were very prone to rusting - which is why they were sold in boxes by the gross, why they did not have have hard alloy tipping (being inexpensive and disposable) and why nib-wipers were a common writing accessory. It was definitely one of the drivers for the development of the iridium-tipped gold nibs in the early 1800s and may have been part of the reason quills hung on well into the 1860s (besides tradition).

 

With dip-pens, the nibs can be easily removed and wiped to prevent rusting between uses. With fountain pens, the feed insures a steady supply of corrosion-producing ink to the nib, which never truly dries out. That is one reason that even fairly cheap pens from the 1900-1920 time-frame had "Warranted 14K" nibs. Cheap plated nibs in fountain pens from that period were gold-plated brass as often as plated steel.

 

John

 

 

[DonDewey]

I'm always a little skeptical about accepting ad copy as proof, given how much of it both in the past and nowadays seems to be iffy re: factual content. It'd be interesting to have a nib assayed.

 

I have only 14k and steel nibs, but I was serious about my offer to check any metal parts of interest. The technique only checks the surface, so you couldn't get the bulk composition of something which was plated, but if there is a non-plated area it would be fine.

[publius]

I could non-destructively test and return (for free) a nib if somebody were interested. The technique isn't absolutely quantitative, but should be within a few % for all elements in question. A nib only (no feed) would be best.

Obviously a Snorkel PdAg nib would be best, since that's what the ad referenced. If nobody else is interested in this test, I would be willing to offer up my Imperial III nib for the purpose, but it's partly gold-plated. Edited July 11, 2009 by publius

[DonDewey]

I could non-destructively test and return (for free) a nib if somebody were interested. The technique isn't absolutely quantitative, but should be within a few % for all elements in question. A nib only (no feed) would be best.

Obviously a Snorkel PdAg nib would be best, since that's what the ad referenced. If nobody else is interested in this test, I would be willing to offer up my Imperial III nib for the purpose, but it's partly gold-plated.

 

As long as there is a non-plated area it will be fine. I believe there is some trick to removing a triumph nib from the feed and section, and I wouldn't want to try on someone else's pen. If you get me a well-cleaned nib with no plastic/rubber attached I should be able to get it back to you within a few days and I'll post the results here.

[RLTodd]

I'm always a little skeptical about accepting ad copy as proof, given how much of it both in the past and nowadays seems to be iffy re: factual content. It'd be interesting to have a nib assayed.

 

I have only 14k and steel nibs, but I was serious about my offer to check any metal parts of interest. The technique only checks the surface, so you couldn't get the bulk composition of something which was plated, but if there is a non-plated area it would be fine.

 

Would this be one of the accelerated testing methods?

 

Rambling on............

 

My position these days is, I haven't personally experienced the corrosion, people say it exists and occasionaly will post a picture of the damage, but I am never sure of the conditions under which the damage was incurred.

 

In theorey, and a piece of metal in a beaker of acidic acid, yes. But a fountain pen isn't used like that. We don't store them point down in a beaker of ink.

 

If there is corrosion, pens without that {potty mouth} section trim ring}, I would think it would be on the underside of the nib and the slit. Maybe some of the pen repairers, in the futre, and when they have time, could post some pictures of the corrosion damage on steel nibbed pens.

 

These days I just think gold is horribly over sold and over priced.............

 

Of course, as always,

 

YMMV

 

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

My position these days is, I haven't personally experienced the corrosion, people say it exists and occasionaly will post a picture of the damage, but I am never sure of the conditions under which the damage was incurred.

 

In theorey, and a piece of metal in a beaker of acidic acid, yes. But a fountain pen isn't used like that. We don't store them point down in a beaker of ink.

 

If there is corrosion, pens without that {potty mouth} section trim ring}, I would think it would be on the underside of the nib and the slit. Maybe some of the pen repairers, in the futre, and when they have time, could post some pictures of the corrosion damage on steel nibbed pens.

 

These days I just think gold is horribly over sold and over priced.............

 

If I get a chance I can show you some of the horribly corroded nibs I have pulled out of 3rd tier vintage pens. Some of them are quite ugly, and not all are corroded steel - some brass. Corrosion on the nib tends to be on the underside, where the nib contacts the feed, and where the nib is wedged between nib and feed in the section. With some nibs, the tail of the nib is completely corroded such that the rest of the nib has broken off and the corroded tail needs to be scraped out of the section, sometimes leaving big chunks of plating behind.

 

But we are talking about different time periods.

 

In the 1800s, when the Iridium-tipped gold nib was invented an popularized, there was no stainless steel, and steel dip-nibs were disposable.

 

In the 1920s, there was precious little stainless steel, and the plated steel and plated brass used in fountain pen nibs was cheap and prone to corrosion. All decent fountian pens had a gold nib.

 

In the 1930s, there began to be quality stainless steel, eg. Esterbrook, though many cheap pens used really bad "stainless" or the same non-stainless gold-plated nibs they had been using. Lots of nasty corrosion. High-end pens still all used 14K.

 

By the time Sheaffer started making Silver-Palladium nibs in the early 1950s, there was really good-quality stainless nibs out there, as represented by Sheaffer's own Tip-dip line. Even Wearever stainless nibs from the 1950s were pretty good nibs and have held up pretty well over time. The corrosion problems realistically had been solved by then, but high-quality pens still carried 14K nibs by tradition.

 

So I would agree that with modern nibs, the corrosion issue really is minor. I have seen people post about corrosion with some relatively recent pens, so it does come up, but for the most part I think it is a minor issue. In that sense, I would agree that gold is oversold. But historically gold had a definite purpose and there really were not quality alternatives to it.

 

John

[Ernst Bitterman]

So I would agree that with modern nibs, the corrosion issue really is minor. I have seen people post about corrosion with some relatively recent pens, so it does come up, but for the most part I think it is a minor issue. In that sense, I would agree that gold is oversold. But historically gold had a definite purpose and there really were not quality alternatives to it.

 

Just a data point, rather than a contrary argument-- I've got both Osmiroid and Waterman points for 1980's manufacture that look like the book-worn got at 'em up under the section. In both cases, there was nothing like proper cleaning when set aside for months at a time (boo, younger me!), and in the former case there is a degree of "What a surprise. ", but I do find myself looking at something like the inlaid steel point on a Sheaffer 330 and being slightly worried.

[kirchh]

Palladium only rose in price with the introduction of the automotive catalytic converter in the 1970s ; before that (&, indeed, now), it was generally substantially less costly than either platinum or gold.

Palladium was more expensive than gold from 1911 though 1931, 1967-1970, and 1999-2002.

 

The name is taken from the statue of Pallas Athene at Troy, which when removed exposed the city to destruction.

I would be interested in a citation for this assertion. Every reference I have seen indicates that the name was taken from the asteroid Pallas (itself named after the Greek goddess).

 

--Daniel

Edited July 23, 2009 by kirchh

[publius]

Palladium was more expensive than gold from 1911 though 1931, 1967-1970, and 1999-2002.

Where are you getting your statistics? I know that late into the 19th century the impure platinum produced at that time was still cheap enough that it was used in counterfeiting gold coins, being the only available substance with a high enough specific gravity. Once the platinum-group metals began to be refined in important quantities, & the prices to rise, as a result of increased industrial use, chiefly as catalysts, palladium has typically tracked platinum at a substantially lower level ; but as the platinum group have rarely been used as monetary metals, I have paid less attention to their price histories than to those of silver & gold.

 

I would be interested in a citation for this assertion. Every reference I have seen indicates that the name was taken from the asteroid Pallas (itself named after the Greek goddess).

This is not incorrect, as there was something of a fashion for naming newly-discovered metals after newly-discovered planets, cf. uranium, & in our own era neptunium & plutonium ; but Wollaston could not have been ignorant that the word already existed. I refer you to Smith's Smaller Latin-English Dictionary (edition of 1933, taken at random from my shelf), p504, subhead under Pallas (p503) :

Palladium, i, n. an image of Pallas Athene, esp. the one said to have fallen from heaven ; on it the safety of Troy (and later of Rome) depended : Cic, Verg, Ov.

The words said to have fallen from heaven are significant when we consider, first, that the platinum-group metals are obtained principally from meteroritic sources, & secondly that it was just at that time that Chladni demonstrated the reality of meteoric falls to the scientific world. While one can hardly know, one may wonder whether this too was in Wollaston's mind. Edited July 23, 2009 by publius