which japanese pen has the most wabi-sabi?

[Number99]

6 hours ago, MartinPauli said:

For those deeply interested in Japanese Aesthetics I can recommend the book "The Theory of Beauty in the Classical Aesthetics of Japan" by Toshihiko and Toyo Izutsu. Available in English and German

The wabi-sabi theme is a content that involves the roots of religious consciousness leading to a particular ethnic group's view of life and death.

 

Please discuss it carefully and precisely, not out of curiosity.

 

Please understand it properly and explain it in your own words.

 

I read the paper halfway through, which I obtained as a PDF resource. But this is a commentary on classical literature from the patron's point of view, explaining simple things in an esoteric way.

As for wabi-sabi, I explained it above, but since you don't seem to understand it, I won't discuss it anymore. And Toshihiko Izutsu is a Japanese Islamic scholar and linguist. And I could not find any background information on Toyoko, the main author, other than his wife.

 

I am very sad.

 

 

[Karmachanic]

Wabi and Sabi  Two words.

[MartinPauli]

Number 99, I have neither the interest nor the intention to discuss what exactly Wabi Sabi is. In my first comment I quoted a quote from an art dealer in Tokyo and in my second post I just posted a link to a book and that's all. I don't understand where there is a problem??

[como]

The most wabi sabi pens are the pens called “wabi sabi”. They were created for the sole purpose of wabi sabi 😂 https://www.nibs.com/catalog?search_api_views_fulltext=Wabi

 

When I look at them, my unappreciative eyes feel as if wasabi had got in my eyes 😉

[Number99]

6 hours ago, MartinPauli said:

Number 99, I have neither the interest nor the intention to discuss what exactly Wabi Sabi is. In my first comment I quoted a quote from an art dealer in Tokyo and in my second post I just posted a link to a book and that's all. I don't understand where there is a problem??

The act of posting a citation must always be the intention of the contributor.

If you only quote and do not explain anything, the quoted object itself is considered to be your claim and you are responsible for it.

And you have abdicated that responsibility.

I consider the two question marks you filled in at the end as an act of offense against me.

No more commercial exploitation of the religious spirituality of a particular ethnic group.

 

 

[MartinPauli]

I am not Japanese, just a Swiss who is fascinated by Japan and has been trying to understand Japanese art, aesthetics and craftsmanship since the late 1980s and I have spent a lot of time in Japan for this purpose. I never claimed to know better than you what wabi sabi means and in no way intended my comments as a competition.
My great interest is "Suiseki", the Japanese art of stone appreciation. I wrote an e-book about this a few years ago. It may be of interest to you

 

https://www.manupropria-pens.ch/angularmomentum-manupropria/uploadfiles/static/d0f686b/aa23b809-a0b6-455f-8ae8-60a3038d5244.pdf/Suiseki and the unique view of nature in Japan - by Martin Pauli.pdf

[mke]

Viewpoint of Sailor

https://en.sailor.co.jp/topics/wabi-sabi-1st/

[PithyProlix]

56 minutes ago, mke said:

Viewpoint of Sailor

https://en.sailor.co.jp/topics/wabi-sabi-1st/

 

And another Sailor definition here, different from the one on the Wabi Sabi 1st pen page: https://en.sailor.co.jp/topics/wabi-sabi-2nd/  😅 Note also the description of "Sabi" later down in the page, which they describe as part of the lacquering process. Note also they describe the urushi technique as ‘Irogasane Sabinuri’ [emphasis added], which seems to be a technique unique to this artist, as far as I can tell - and it is not clear who coined the phrase, the artist or Sailor (or someone else?). There is another use of word 'Sabi' in the context of the lacquering process of this pen here: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.sailor.co.jp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F05%2FProduction-process-for-Wabi-Sabi-Fountain-Pen.pdf

 

You can also read inkstable.com's Wabi Sabi description here, on their write-up of the Wabi Sabi 1st pen: https://inkstable.com/sailors-wabi-sabi-and-the-philosophy-of-embracing-imperfection/

 

Except for the one emoji, I have intentionally withheld my opinions. 😅

 

(Off-topic: I won't withhold here: to my eye, the Sailor Wabi Sabi 1st pen is extraordinarily ugly. I am reminded of cancerous growths. Perhaps the ratio of the size of the bumps to the overall size of the pen is much too high, at least for my taste. I suspect that finish would look a lot better on a larger object. As for the bump size ratio, I'd probably go for something much closer to the skin of most toads.

 

I like Wabi Sabi 2nd.

It is not my intent to offend or upset anyone and I'm sorry if I have. De gustibus non est disputandum.)

[Kirmo]

I could be wrong, but this is my idea of wabi-sabi : an old Japanese pen, used and partly worn out .

 

 

[Number99]

On 2/25/2024 at 5:08 PM, PithyProlix said:

And another Sailor definition here, different from the one on the Wabi Sabi 1st pen page: https://en.sailor.co.jp/topics/wabi-sabi-2nd/  😅 Note also the description of "Sabi" later down in the page, which they describe as part of the lacquering process. Note also they describe the urushi technique as ‘Irogasane Sabinuri’ [emphasis added], which seems to be a technique unique to this artist, as far as I can tell - and it is not clear who coined the phrase, the artist or Sailor (or someone else?). There is another use of word 'Sabi' in the context of the lacquering process of this pen here: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.sailor.co.jp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F05%2FProduction-process-for-Wabi-Sabi-Fountain-Pen.pdf

 

You can also read inkstable.com'si Sabi description here, on their write-up of the Wabi Sabi 1st pen: https://inkstable.com/sailors-wabi-sabi-and-the-philosophy-of-embracing-imperfection/

 

Except for the one emoji, I have intentionally withheld my opinions. 😅

A positive opinion from another point of view.

 

Sabi (錆) of Sabi-urshi (used for sabi-nuri) and Sabi (寂び) of Wabi-Sabi are homophones, and the meaning of the letters is exactly rust itself.

Abrasive powder is used as a mixture with urushi.

When wood powder is used, it is called kokusorshi, a technique used for kanatsugi.

When used for maki-e, it is called tetusabi-urushi (鉄錆漆) “iron rust urushi" and was used to create the atmosphere of iron castings.

 

This is clearly an intentional misuse of the name, but this is probably a marketing ploy by Sailor for overseas customers who have little knowledge of the Japanese language and culture. If these products are sold in Japan using this naming, these misleading expressions may be in violation of Consumer Protection Related Laws.

I have not yet been able to confirm the status of these pens being sold in Japan…

 

Explanation of the technique by the Aizu Lacquer Ware Cooperative Association.

http://www.chuokai-fukushima.or.jp/aizushikkikumiai/aizunuri/tetsusabi/tetsusabi.html

 

On 2/25/2024 at 5:23 PM, Kirmo said:

I could be wrong, but this is my idea of wabi-sabi : an old Japanese pen, used and partly worn out .

Agreed, and I also think it is not wrong to apply it to fountain pens in the West.

 

 

P.S. to this thread.

I don't think the sabi element of wabi-sabi is present in a new pen, as sabi describes a gradual change over time over an extremely long period of time.

Edited February 26 by Number99
Definitive expressions were changed to presumptive expressions.

[AmandaW]

May I show this pen? It is my favourite of my Japanese pens. I enjoy Posting nibs and bid high for this one because I didn't see them often. In the end I did not pay much for it because no one else bid.

 

When it arrived I was a little dismayed to find the broken feed and worn plating, but it won my heart because it writes so well. And reminds me that looks do not matter. I do think of the history it must have and the other hands that wrote with it.

 

Is this wabi sabi? I do not want to be disrespectful.

 

[Prof Drew]

I don't want to debate with @MartinPauli, but I think those of us who are not Japanese should recognize what @Number99 has been rightly pointing out, that writers in English (and other foreign languages) have used "wabi-sabi" to mean things that are different from how Japanese use the term.

 

As @mke and @PithyProlix pointed out, some Japanese like Sailor will use the English meaning when trying to sell overseas. I personally don't think those Sailor pens are good examples of wabi-sabi for the reasons that @Number99 pointed out that no new pen really could express that value in the Japanese sense of the word. In the world of pottery, accidental vase shapes have high value and prestige. Unfortunately, this results in "manufactured accidents" which probably sell well, but are not examples of wabi-sabi.

 

I've heard the same misuse from gallery dealers in Japan (many of whom are not Japanese) when speaking English to foreigners. My Japanese is limited, but they certainly use it differently when speaking in Japanese to Japanese.

 

In the past I think people sort of understood that different languages / cultures have different meanings of the same word and sort of said it is in the eyes of the speaker. However, I think in the 21st century we've matured and recognize more that a host culture has some legal and moral authority to define how some concepts could / should be used and marketed.

 

For example, in the US we often called incorrectly called any sparkling wine as champagne, but now we recognize that there are some legitimate differences which courts and treaties have upheld. They may deal with the types of grapes or the way they are fermented, as well as the taste as a result of growing areas. That's part of why we now differentiate Prosecco and Champagne. Of course, French vineyards recognize different classifications, such as rosé Champagne or can manufacture something for export to appeal to le Goût américain, (American taste) and fight wines marketed as Champagne from the Swiss village of that name. 

 

I've always wondered if foreign companies that sell urushi pens or market other Japanese cultural practices would be treated by WIPO or other international agreements. Even if there is no legal protection, which might be complex since lacquer developed in several countries. Should it be called urushi if it is applied in Japan using Japanese urushi according to traditional methods?

 

If we go beyond the legal rights, I think that we should at the very least recognize that Japanese speakers have the moral rights to determine what really is meant by such Japanese terms as wabi-sabi. As @Number99 pointed out, these terms are complex and tied to philosophy, identity, religion, belief in a way that is intrinsic to what it means to be Japanese.

 

I think that residents of any country would at the least feel some discomfort if someone in another country tried to define the essence of being of that nation. It would be even more discomforting if someone in another country tried to tell someone else "this is what X means" and was making money promoting that agenda.

 

Basically I am trying to suggest that those of us who are Japanese should have a bit more humility when it comes to these Japanese terms and values. 

 

Hang in there everyone and have a good week. Aloha, Andrew

[mke]

6 hours ago, Prof Drew said:

that writers in English (and other foreign languages) have used "wabi-sabi" to mean things that are different from how Japanese use the term.

 

Japanese also do use foreign things they way they want, like Christmas e.g., and nobody is complaining that they don't show respect. 

 

 

 

[como]

9 hours ago, AmandaW said:

May I show this pen? It is my favourite of my Japanese pens. I enjoy Posting nibs and bid high for this one because I didn't see them often. In the end I did not pay much for it because no one else bid.

 

When it arrived I was a little dismayed to find the broken feed and worn plating, but it won my heart because it writes so well. And reminds me that looks do not matter. I do think of the history it must have and the other hands that wrote with it.

 

Is this wabi sabi? I do not want to be disrespectful.

 

Why not. I like the phrase wabi sabi. Instead of saying sh-t, I just say wabi sabi. It's a nicer way of saying it and makes me happier or at least less miserable 😀 Maybe it's not technically accurate but who cares. We are not doing a PhD in wabi sabi here.

[PithyProlix]

A kamakura-bori pen, perhaps from the 1950s, of unknown manufacture that I received a few months ago. The lacquer has deteriorated, presumably from use, how it was carried around, and/or how it was stored, giving the mottled appearance of a strawberry's skin.

 

It doesn't make sense that the cap top is unfinished - I have searched for another like it and haven't found one. I like to think that the clip broke and, in the process of replacing it, the cap top also broke and had to be replaced. It's not 'right' but it 'works' aesthetically, I think.

 

 

 

[Karmachanic]

1 hour ago, como said:

Instead of saying sh-t, I just say wabi sabi.

 

Revealing.

[Prof Drew]

I'm not trying to spark a BBS flame war here. I like how fountain pen people here are mostly supportive of each other and how we enjoy learning about the world together. However, I am trying to think of a way that we can reverse the situation to imagine how some Japanese might feel.

 

@mke said that foreigners don't complain when Japanese use Christmas differently. I think that's a bit of an odd analogy since there are some Japanese Christians, and in general it seems that most Christians are happy if Christmas is adopted anywhere (as it's a missionary religion). I'm not Christian and think it is the commercial aspects that are picked up, much the same way they are used in the US and elsewhere. Japan may have added Col. Sanders as a Christmas icon for some reason, but I don't imagine others would be offended any more than they are about the commercialization of the holiday anywhere in the world. I know there also is a lot of creative Japanglish too, much of which makes no sense in English to native speakers.

 

This obviously is an example of cultural borrowing when some people are trying to sell products with Japanese names with the image of "made in Japan according to Japanese practice." They may or may not be, but I hope that we would realize that we should recognize that we are touching a cultural nerve. It also has economic and political aspects at a time when there are few craftsmen trying to make a living with different cultural arts, such as the Wajima urushi crafts people who struggled with the Ishikawa-ken earthquake.

 

I'm trying to think of something that is sacred in the US that could be compared. America is a comparatively young and secular country, but I think we see tension when people use the American flag in a disrespectful way.  For many people the flag serves as an icon that has power that tells us about who we are as a people. We often hear people talk about veterans who died protecting that flag as a symbol of freedom. To be honest I'm not so nationalistic, but I think we should realize that some cultural traditions and expressions tell us about who "we" (of any country / culture)  are and what we value. Wabi-sabi is tied to some of these values that shape what is it mean to be Japanese (even if many Japanese probably don't think about it so much consciously). 

 

When I re-raised this issue I think I was basically trying to see if others also felt somewhat uncomfortable with how the term is used in our pen-loving world.

 

I'm a teacher, but wabisabi is one of those things when I think questions are more important than easy and clear answers. And I think an important part of questioning is recognizing that we don't all have equal authority to label things that are so clearly borrowed from other cultures.

 

Yes, we all can have our own understandings, but in the end, I think we need to defer to Japanese on the concept. I'm not Japanese so I think we should defer to @Number99 on this.

 

 

[MartinPauli]

Honestly, when sentences like «Exploitation of the religious spirituality of a particular ethnic group» comes up in a discussion, I can no longer take the discussion seriously. It's just stupid cultural Marxist propaganda.

Cultures have always enriched each other. If Japan had not opened up to the West, there would have been no Japonism, Impressionism, Expressionism, Art Nouveau. Lalique, Fabergé, Tiffany, Gallé, Fouquet, Paul Philippe and other artists of the time were in possession of Hokusai's manga and Ukio-e woodcuts, which inspired them in their work.

Painters such as Mucha, Klimt, Toulouse Lautrec, but also architects such as LeCorbuier and Frank Lloyd Wrigh were enthusiastic collectors of Ukio-e woodcuts and were very much inspired by the Japanese visual and formal language. Samuel Bing opened the Salon de l'Art Nouveau in Paris in 1895, where works by well-known Parisian artists of the time were exhibited alongside Japanese and Asian Arts.

Conversely, without the German philosophers there would be no modern, written Japanese philosophy, and without the western influence in general there would be no modern Japan.

And let's not forget the influence of the Chinese "symmetrical" formal language and Chinese porcelain in particular, which inspired the Baroque a few hundred years earlier. And vice versa how much the paintings of Giuseppe Castiglione or as known in China as «Lang Shining» has influenced arts in Quing China

[Number99]

1 hour ago, MartinPauli said:

It's just stupid cultural Marxist propaganda.

That sounds like the explanation of western art history I learned in junior high school.

You have switched the argument around and have not explained anything about wabi-sabi to the end.

You are free to value your property as such fine art, but if you are going to profess it, please explain the core of "wabi-sabi" properly.

I learned what you are describing in junior high school.

 

Sidenote.

This is nothing more than a Reply. I am not expressing an opinion about other posters.

Edited February 27 by Number99

[Number99]

On 2/18/2024 at 12:42 AM, MartinPauli said:

The best explanation of wabisabi I heard from the owner of London Gallery in Ropponggi, specialized on Negoro mono (Red and Black Lacquer).

 

A complex aesthetic concept or ideal of beauty that has manifested itself in the art of tea, in connection with dark colors, old patina, rust, transience, darkness, calm, loss, asymmetry, imperfection. The contemplation of things that possess "wabi" awaken "sabi". The "raku" tea bowl represents "wabi" in a narrower sense with its characteristics.

Why did you post at this time when Wajima was destroyed by the Noto Peninsula earthquake which caused many deaths, as if you understand "wabi-sabi" which you cannot explain yourself, by using as an example a raku tea bowl from a store specializing in Negoro-mono in the same style as your work?

And what you quoted was a commentary by the same Japanese who suffered the disaster.

I did not say this until now, but I believe that your posted actions need an explanation as well.

 

Edited February 27 by Number99
Correction of mistranslation.