Legal Lapis pigment sediment?

[djmaher]

Has anyone experienced the same "trouble" with Legal Lapis on occasion? I haven't written alot recently, although I really like this color, for a blue-black, somewhat old-fashioned looking ink.

 

I know inks have pigments in them, and I know they will settle out at times due to lack of use, but I'm just curious if others have had the same experience. I'm not too fond of shaking inks alot, because of the bubbles, etc, but is this settling common?

 

Hopefully the photos will depict what I'm talking about. I'm open to advice and comments (except, "use more ink!" I know that.. )

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

[Deirdre]

It's part of the bulletproof-fu. Just shake it up to mix it.

 

All the Noodler's bulletproofs have some settling, frequently purple-ish.

[JohnS-MI]

A slightly gentler motion than shaking is to incline the bottle on an angle, then rotate it in your hands. It seems to remix the ink equally well without all the bubbles. But yes, it is necessary to do something to agitate.

(Yet, it doesn't seem to settle out in the pen. I don't know why. Doesn't make sense.)

[Possum Hill]

Noodler's ink is just full of good stuff and the bulletproof varieties are even more fuller. Always agitate the bottle before filling your pen.

[hawki]

I have also had to agitate all of my bulletproof varieties. Still no trouble in any of my pens however.

[Deirdre]

A slightly gentler motion than shaking is to incline the bottle on an angle, then rotate it in your hands. It seems to remix the ink equally well without all the bubbles. But yes, it is necessary to do something to agitate.

(Yet, it doesn't seem to settle out in the pen. I don't know why. Doesn't make sense.)

If I know I'm going to be filling pens in an hour, I just turn the bottle upside-down for that time, which is also another gentle way.

 

Usually I forget though.

 

I think the motion of carrying and using the pen is enough to keep everything mixed.

[ZeissIkon]

I know inks have pigments in them

 

Just a tiny nit-pick -- the only fountain pen inks with pigments in them are the carbon inks -- Pelikan Fount India, Pilot Kurogawa (aka Nano Carbon), and a couple other similar ones. Other pigment inks are intended for dip pens; fountain pen inks, with the above exceptions, have dyes -- soluble colorants. Except that some Noodler's colors are so saturated that they precipitate a little.

 

Agitation before filling is the simple way; it might also be possible to dilute the ink so the precipitation doesn't occur, though I don't know that it's necessary.

[Inka]

I've had no trouble using Noodler's inks and most of my are of the Eternal or "bulletproof" varieties.

Like others have mentioned, if sediment is seen at the bottle bottom, invert and swirl, or hold at a horizontal and swirl, to remix the contents.

It works for me every time and if I do shake vigorously I let the bubbles settle for a bit prior to filling my pens, no problem there.

Other times I transfer small amounts into smaller glass or Nalgene bottles that require only a gentle swirl, fill my pens from those instead of the bigger bottles and that works very well too.

All of their "bulletproof" inks work perfectly in all of my pens, despite some saying they've had "issues" [most of them seem to be using Polar Brown in Pilot VPs, from what I've been reading].

 

I've still not contacted Nathan @ Noodler's regarding the questions about the white ring found at the bottom of Polar Brown ink, still no idea what the white ring is yet but I've had no problems after gentle swirling to remix.

My wife and I have just one cell phone, our only phone with long-distance calling, and with my wife now using it when she's out looking for work or doing volunteer work at our church, I don't have access to that phone.

I was hoping someone else that has "issues" using Polar Brown would have called Nathan by now [i have no "issues" with it, none!] and post back the findings but no such luck.

His number is Listed on his Noodler's Website, would only take a few minutes to call him and ask so it baffles me that no one else has taken the time to do so, especially when they have the problems and I do not [Hmmmm..].

 

I don't yet own Legal Lapis but I have considered getting some.

It's been my experience that the gentle swirling will my other Noodler's that need it generally do get my other Noodler's inks into top condition and well-mixed before a fill.

Maybe you could call Nathan and ask about it settling, see what he recommends?

Could be worth a shot, then you could let others here know what the best way to deal with this is straight from the mouth of the maker himself.

Just a thought.

[HDoug]

If I know I'm going to be filling pens in an hour, I just turn the bottle upside-down for that time, which is also another gentle way.

 

Or you could just store them upside down since you'd have to turn them over to fill your pen...

 

Doug

[bardharlock]

If I know I'm going to be filling pens in an hour, I just turn the bottle upside-down for that time, which is also another gentle way.

 

Or you could just store them upside down since you'd have to turn them over to fill your pen...

 

Doug

 

I have scary, nightmarish visions of catastrophic cap failure and a drawer full of ink and stained books, etc. Oi, my wife would kill me... no, for real this time!

 

By the way, Doug, I never saw any follow up on how the Kung Te-Chung faired in a "real" pen over time. Would you say it was as safe as other Noodler's, maybe just more saturated or prone to staining converter walls or something?

[HDoug]

By the way, Doug, I never saw any follow up on how the Kung Te-Chung faired in a "real" pen over time. Would you say it was as safe as other Noodler's, maybe just more saturated or prone to staining converter walls or something?

 

Stay tuned for a report. But in short, I've had Kung Te-Cheng in a dedicated Pelikan M200 anthracite demonstrator since January. It's been in constant rotation and had several refills (I have the exact number or fills in my home ink database). No probs to report, but it does have a greater tendency to dry and choke the flow if you are the sort to take long, thoughtful pauses before actually writing anything. Of course, I never think before I write. Or post. So it's not a problem for me.

 

Doug

 

[HDoug]

I have scary, nightmarish visions of catastrophic cap failure and a drawer full of ink and stained books, etc. Oi, my wife would kill me... no, for real this time!

 

Well, I guess you could put the upside down inks in some kind of baking pan. But now I'm picturing a pan of upside down ink bottles sitting it a disgusting slurry of inks. And this on the night the cute neighbor decides to visit because, hey, maybe you're not really a weirdo...

 

Doug

 

[djmaher]

Thanks for all of the insight...

 

Oddly, swirling, or shaking (gentle or vigorous), and the precipitate stay put for a long time. Eventually, goes into solution though.

 

I turned the bottle over, overnight, and, voila', all gone into solution by itself!

 

weird, or, maybe not...

 

Just a question here...Doesn't a dye have a tendency to stay in solution, and opposed to a pigment, which could precipitate out of solution?

 

This question is based on my photographer self, knowing that dye-based inks, in most photo printers, are not stable or archival, long term, while pigment-based inks a generally known to be much more stable long-term, in part because of the pigment that embeds itself during printing (worked in a photo lab for forever, so I have a fair amount of hands-on experience with the subject)

 

I know there are tons more variables here, and I know you can't really compare photo printer ink with pen ink, so the 'comparison' is just in a very general sense...

 

So, is the precipitate I'm seeing in the Legal Lapis dye, or pigment, or some other magic goo??

 

Probably doesn't really matter what it is, BUT, I haven't seen the same type of thing with my 6 other bottles of Noodlers that have been sitting for a bit (carefully turned those over, and no "stuff" on the bottom of the bottles...

 

Probably over thinking this, I know.

 

Or, maybe not

 

Dave

[drifting]

I don't have the answers to all (any?) of your further questions, but I'll add my voice to the "my Legal Lapis settles out, too" contingent. Or rather, it did.

 

My bottle of LL is probably about 6 or 7 years old (I know, I know - too many inks, so little time), and I haven't noticed that it's settled out in a long while, and it no longer has that wild opaque electric blue look to it - it just looks like any other blueblack in the bottle. The colour on paper hasn't changed (beyond the wide variation in different pens typical of LL), but I wouldn't be able to pick it out of a label-free lineup in the bottle anymore. Anyone else experience this?

 

Ryan.

[PJohnP]

OK, let's do some careful definition of terms.

 

Precipitation is usually referring to a material than has been dissolved in a solvent that forms a solid which drops out from the liquid. The phenomenon of precipitation is a function of the net solubility of the material in the liquid soluvent, which can vary with temperature and with other materials dissolved in the solution. When the solution is what is called "saturated" (a very different use of the word than for ink colour !), change(s) in conditions can result in precipitation, or alternately, allow precipitates to re-dissolve.

 

Suspensions are cases where solid materials are literally "suspended" in a liquid medium. Suspensions are a function of the colligative properties of the liquid medium, the physical properties of the solid, especially the particle size of the solid. Changes in temperature, other dissolved materials in the liquid medium, alterations in colligative properties such as viscosity or surface tension can cause the suspension to "drop out", although one will hear people refer to this as "precipitation".

 

It's entirely possible to have a saturated solution with a suspension present at the same time, so these are not mutually exclusive conditions.

 

To the naked eye, it's often impossible to discern the difference between a solution and a suspension, as the particle sizes in a suspension are usually far too small to differentiate for the naked eye, and mixing of the liquid can both assist in suspension and improve solubility of precipitates.

 

Absent being told by the manufacturer that an ink is a suspension, such as the Sailor Kiwagura "Nano Carbon Ink", it's going to be darned difficult to determine what the gunk is at the bottom of an ink bottle, precipitation of dissolved materials or suspension fall-out.

 

 

 

John P.

[Paddler]

I have noticed some settling in a bottle of Upper Ganges Blue. It looks a lighter blue than the rest of the ink. If I don't shake the bottle enough before filling a pen, I get tiny lighter blue streaks in the lines. It is like the ink is a mixture of two liquids that don't want to mix very well - like milk and cream? The streaks begin thicker and then trail off to thin, a bit like a long exclamation point. I posted a question about this several months ago and got no replies; maybe everybody thought I was daft or something worse. I wonder if setting the ink bottle in an ultrasonic bath would homogenize the ink inside.

 

Paddler

 

[ZeissIkon]

I have noticed some settling in a bottle of Upper Ganges Blue. It looks a lighter blue than the rest of the ink. If I don't shake the bottle enough before filling a pen, I get tiny lighter blue streaks in the lines. It is like the ink is a mixture of two liquids that don't want to mix very well - like milk and cream? The streaks begin thicker and then trail off to thin, a bit like a long exclamation point. I posted a question about this several months ago and got no replies; maybe everybody thought I was daft or something worse. I wonder if setting the ink bottle in an ultrasonic bath would homogenize the ink inside.

 

Paddler

 

I think I recall Nathan posting something about this, that some of his inks only barely stay mixed (and he's apparently recently created a couple that spread differentially on the page, though that's an unrelated property). Assuming this is like other solutions near saturation, adding a surprisingly small amount of plain water might help -- or it might not, if the issue is one of compatibility or solute competition, a question even Nathan might not be able to definitively answer.

 

I don't think I'd want to sonicate an ink bottle -- I just picture trying to clean up your ultrasonic cleaner if the bottle should shatter...

[Garageboy]

Real curious what that stuff is, it was weird in my bank note green seeing purple at the bottom of ink that looks radioactive green

[djmaher]

yikes...maybe part of the secret recipe

 

I wonder about the proverbial can o worms now......lol

[Ink Stained Wretch]

Yes, I get the accumulation at the bottom of the bottle to. I just shake all bottles of ink before I use them. I do this now with all inks of all manufacturers.

 

Inverting the bottle and shaking it vigorously works for me. On the square bottomed bottles I have to work to get the color out of the corners.

 

I believe that the stuff on the bottom is the stuff that makes the ink waterproof, etc.

 

As for why stuff doesn't seem to settle out in fountain pens: I think it takes a while for the stuff to coat the bottom of the bottle and I don't leave fountain pens around for that long unused. I think that if you left a fountain pen unused and unmoved for long enough to have that stuff settle out the ink would dry out all together.

 

I wouldn't want to leave a bottle upside down overnight. I worry about the caps popping off when I'm shaking the bottle, so I really would worry about leakage of my precious, and expensive, inks if I left the bottles cap down for an extended period.

 

It's all worth it to me for the archival quality of the inks, however.