Pen show

[OldGriz]

$43.74 US just to get into a pen show?

 

 

er...I don't think so.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

Welcome to the real world.

 

Maybe the world there.. but not in the US for shows.... see my posting above this.

[Frits B]

Okay...I guess this is a sensitive topic.

 

As far as taking money to the show is concerned. The entrance fee was 32 Euros (I had 27 Euros). I had never been to a pen show in my life and I have been a devouted collector for 20 years I would have paid with a smile if I had it or if someone could have helped me get to a bank. Given I have 135 pens and in the past two months I have spent over $5000 on pens, so 32 Euros would not have broken the bank. I repeated several times that I needed someone to please take me to a bank, my taxi is coming back at 12pm and I don't have a number to phone him and ask him to come earlier so that I can go to a bank and come back in time and that I had a meeting with the MD of our consulting group at 1pm that I couldn't be late for.

 

Unfortunately what could have happened is that they thought I was trying my luck. They didn't know that I have been collecting for 2 decades and that attending the show was to be a highlight of my 20 year pen hobby.

 

So given the context of a 20 year dedication to this hobby and the sheer excitement I had in the taxi while on the way to the show it is not unreasonable for me to not be thinking clearly and then the shock of me getting there and realising oh xxxxxxx this is not a pen club meeting, but a pen trade show and I am just some foreigner who doesn't have enough money to pay the entrance fee, can't speak the language and I don't know anyone here so no one would think hey Dylan...gosh you don't have enough money..silly you...let's help by taking you to a bank so you to can share in the fun...(standing outside was 20 plus vehicles)....you have waited 20 years for this...man that is a long time.

 

If I was at "your" pen show and the same thing happened I would hope that someone would say..hey bud how can we help you. Not "hey get out!"

First of all: an entrance fee of 32 euros for a sales show that lasts 6 hours at most is ridiculous. I wouldn't even have tried to get in.

Secondly: English is taught in schools all over Europe from an early age on so there should have been at least people with basic knowledge around. I have the feeling that they simply didn't want to help you - which is bad sales practice.

Thirdly: these are primarily commercial shows, and commerce involves money which nowadays comes in nice little plastic cards. Nobody carries wads of banknotes anymore, it's just not safe to do so. Even market stalls and delivery drivers have card machines now.

I do hope your next visit to a pen show makes you feel more welcome.

[Snowcap]

Maybe the world there.. but not in the US for shows.... see my posting above this.

 

In this neck of the woods Pen shows are rare.

 

So (usually) volunteers come up with the idea, gather others around them and start the whole caboodle.

 

As a form of solidarity to the ones who paid for the rental of the hall, we all chip in.

 

Hence the hefty entrance fee.

 

[Vintagepens]

$43.74 US just to get into a pen show?

 

 

er...I don't think so.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

The average cost for a US pen show for the complete weekend is $45.00, but that includes your spouse or significant other....

I can't see spending the same amount to go to a one day show... but for a whole weekend entry for 2 it is a good deal....

 

Each show is run differently.

If you want to run a small, vintage-only show, the cost of the venue has to be met somehow. If it is an event oriented towards serious pen collectors and traders, why not share that cost through the admission fee? Keep in mind that the cost of the exhibition space at US pen shows is effectively subsidized by part of what show attendees pay for their show-rate hotel rooms (not applicable at non-hotel venues), with further subsidy coming from show sponsors (not applicable at most European shows, whose focus is typically not on modern pens). At many US shows, the registration cost for the show is low, but you end up paying a hefty sum for the hotel room. I'm not saying one approach is better than the other; it's best not to dismiss alternatives out of hand as unreasonable, however. For a small event, making it short in duration does make a lot of sense, both logistically and economically. 32 Euros is very little in comparison to the cost of accommodation, parking, and food at the typical US show.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Vintagepens

[Gothmeister]

QUOTE (Frits B @ Apr 8 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there should have been at least people with basic knowledge around. I have the feeling that they simply didn't want to help you - which is bad sales practice.

 

So you go to a foreign country, expect them to speak to you in your language and, if they don't, it's because they don't want to help you!? Amazing.

 

[Dylan]

QUOTE (Frits B @ Apr 8 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there should have been at least people with basic knowledge around. I have the feeling that they simply didn't want to help you - which is bad sales practice.

 

So you go to a foreign country, expect them to speak to you in your language and, if they don't, it's because they don't want to help you!? Amazing.

 

Frits B wasn't at the pen show. I was. Frits B was simply making a comment.

 

I who was at the pen show did not expect them to speak to me in my language, I would think that english is relatively universal though. I didn't arrive and speak Mandarin.

 

What I was commenting on was that no one seemed that interested in helping me and that was a dissapointment. So don't get too upset it was only a pen show. After some careful consideration I have realised that after thoroughly enjoying collecting pens for 20 years before going to a pen show I could comfortably enjoy another 20 before my next one. Although there have been some very nice people who have shared their joys of pen shows with me and for those people I would like to meet them at a pen show some day..in the States of course.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Collector

[Gothmeister]

QUOTE (Frits B @ Apr 8 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there should have been at least people with basic knowledge around. I have the feeling that they simply didn't want to help you - which is bad sales practice.

 

So you go to a foreign country, expect them to speak to you in your language and, if they don't, it's because they don't want to help you!? Amazing.

 

Frits B wasn't at the pen show. I was. Frits B was simply making a comment.

 

 

Sorry...I meant "you" in the context of "one" goes....

 

[QM2]

I think the original poster is aware that technically, the show organisers did not do anything "wrong" from a rule-based or commercial perspective. Yes, technically, he has no "right" to complain about the treatment received. But the point of this story is the lack of good will. A person can make a mistake due to being uninformed, and in some situations that person would have been treated with warmth and good will regardless. In this situation he was not. I think it is only fair to acknowledge this point.

[Dylan]

I think the original poster is aware that technically, the show organisers did not do anything "wrong" from a rule-based or commercial perspective. Yes, technically, he has no "right" to complain about the treatment received. But the point of this story is the lack of good will. A person can make a mistake due to being uninformed, and in some situations that person would have been treated with warmth and good will regardless. In this situation he was not. I think it is only fair to acknowledge this point.

 

QM2 Well Done that is perfectly stated!

 

Interesting side note.....I was on another pen discussion site tonight and saw a blog by another pen enthusiast who blogged about the Cologne Pen Show. He is obviously a seasoned pen show attendee and he had a great time. What was amazing is that he is from the UK and I walked past him several times at the show, but never spoke to him. Its a pity, because I could have asked him if he could take me to a bank. On his blog he also had a photo of himself with Jurgen Kuhse and Jurgen's mom. These were two of the people who were nice and kind to me and spoke to me and it was his mom that said to me..."What you didn't bring lots of money????" "But you must when you come to a show like this" She really is a nice lady.

[niksch]

 Jurgen Kuhse and Jurgen's mom.

 

I learned a lot from Juergen about pens wile I was living in Germany.  He's a great guy.

[Stylo]

To the OP, you should look at the positive side as well. You were able to spend about 50 minutes touching and looking at pens without having paid an entrance fee. They must have been nice enough in some way to have let you do that, don't you think? I can't even imagine getting though the door without having paid the entrance fee at the LA show. So I don't understand why you feel like you have been treated like a "criminal."

 

Finally, if this show was indeed a one day show or a six hour show, I imagine most attendees would be concentrating on making the most out of every minute available and they would be extremely reluctant to take precious time off to escort some stranger to a bank. At some level, that is an unrealistic expectation.

 

In the end, you were able to spend nearly an hour playing with pens, which is one of the main goals of attending a show. So consider it a partial success

 

 

 

[OcalaFlGuy]

This makes me think of something else I'd had in mind for the Atlanta show but never got "a round tuit"

enough to actually make happen.

 

I had downloaded the FPN seal from the top of the forum page along with the "Fountain Pen Network"

banner (two different images). I had considered slightly reducing them and adding a lined area for a

members FPN alias to be written or printed then saving that as a file and posting it here in a post as an

attachement for people to be able to print off to make a do-it-yourself FPN pen show nametag. Something

so simply printed on some card stock and straight pinned on one self where it could be seen.

 

I might be unlikely to just give any complete stranger in a strange town $5 (or a bit more in this case),

however, if that person had a FPN name tag on, and I knew they were "one of us", I'd certainly have

been ALOT more inclined to have made sure they got into the show.

 

Just some thoughts...

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

 

[Dylan]

To the OP, you should look at the positive side as well. You were able to spend about 50 minutes touching and looking at pens without having paid an entrance fee. They must have been nice enough in some way to have let you do that, don't you think? I can't even imagine getting though the door without having paid the entrance fee at the LA show. So I don't understand why you feel like you have been treated like a "criminal."

 

Finally, if this show was indeed a one day show or a six hour show, I imagine most attendees would be concentrating on making the most out of every minute available and they would be extremely reluctant to take precious time off to escort some stranger to a bank. At some level, that is an unrealistic expectation.

 

In the end, you were able to spend nearly an hour playing with pens, which is one of the main goals of attending a show. So consider it a partial success

 

Hi Stylo

 

Yes, you are right. Of course there were positives which I have stated in this discussion like seeing all the Green straited Mont Blancs - which I think are the most beautiful fountain pens I have ever seen. I also saw the Hemi for the first time and many other WEs and LEs. I saw a serious stash of 51s. I was devastated myself that I didn't have money on me, because if I had I would have bought the "farm". In South Africa I just don't get access to this kind of pen stock. And of course Jurgen and his mom were great and I met another guy who was selling Waldmann pens he was also friendly.

 

QM2 still put it best though.

 

The criminal part is I guess how strongly I felt that day after 20 years of penning to arrive at my first pen show and found myself unprepared and unassisted. Anyway freedom of speech - if I had chosen another word like outsider instead of criminal then this topic discussion would have been a little less intense.

[Stylo]

The criminal part is I guess how strongly I felt that day after 20 years of penning to arrive at my first pen show and found myself unprepared and unassisted. Anyway freedom of speech - if I had chosen another word like outsider instead of criminal then this topic discussion would have been a little less intense.

I think most of us understood your disappointment. Keep your fingers crossed for another chance in the near future. I bet you will be prepared better next time

[Dylan]

Absolutely right, next time I will do the necessary planning. I will also inform the FPN'ers that I am coming and would love to meet whoever is at the show and I will bring CAASSHHH!!!

 

I am still gutted I didn't walk away from the show with at least one vintage pen...aaaahhhhh!!!! Next time I will have to make up for it. I will probably walk away from the next pen show saying..."I cannot believe I just spent that much money!!!"

[Frits B]

QUOTE (Frits B @ Apr 8 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there should have been at least people with basic knowledge around. I have the feeling that they simply didn't want to help you - which is bad sales practice.

 

So you go to a foreign country, expect them to speak to you in your language and, if they don't, it's because they don't want to help you!? Amazing.

No, that was not my reasoning. I simply pointed out that nowadays in Western Europe everybody has been taught English in school, so if I went to say Finland I might reasonably expect most people to understand me when I spoke English, a foreign language to both of us so communication might be a bit slow. But a universally accepted and widely taught lingua franca.

 

On the other hand, I might have reacted in the same way had I been one of the sellers at the show. Time was short, and there's is this unprepared foreign fool who doesn't speak the lingo and has absolutely no usable money on him so a sale is highly unprobable. In that case, one either turns him down or tries to make the best of the situation.

[Parker51]

I am curios as to if anyone knows what the tax policies are in Cologne, and the state of North Rhine - Westphalia. In many, but not all States in the U.S., as well as in the various Provinces of Canada, there are legally required sales taxes, or Goods and Services Taxes, which must be paid, and which are enforced, especially when it comes to electronic transactions such as debit and credit cards. Cash transactions are by their nature are less likely to generate an audit able trail.

 

In Ohio, the State where I reside, the Ohio Department of Taxation will have staff persons out checking at stores as well as fairs, shows, and anywhere else that anyone might be selling something, even on Legal Holidays when one would not expect the "tax man" might not be working. They check that everyone selling items has the appropriate license, that they have the appropriate tax tables with them to calculate the tax, and that they are collecting the tax. While I have observed the State tax personnel doing this, I have heard they will observe transactions, and check receipts to make certain that the appropriate tax is being collected. The "tax men" that I have observed were are actually not men, but women, with clipboards, and rucksacks full of papers. It was a Memorial Day Holiday, at a church sponsored "Flea Market", or "Boot Sale" they checked each seller in each space. They were pleasant, but very serious despite being extremely casually dressed in shorts and sweat shirts.

 

And, so, I am wondering, are there taxes to be collected at the point of sale in Cologne, or perhaps, as in the U.K., is the sale to be recorded, and a percent of the sale to be remitted as tax. In either case, could be the unusual focus on using cash for transactions be a way to avoid taxation?

 

And as for the rather high admission fee, I am also curios about it. As a result of having a high admissions fee, do the show organizers keep the fees for the sellers spaces low?

[david i]

Also "All the backslapping and joviality was directed to the inner circles" does not happen at any pen show I have been to...

Sure there is an inner circle of people who do the shows and have known each other for years... BUT, they have never ignored a newbie that I have seen...

It is fairly common after the show for a bunch of us to sit around the hotel lobby and discuss our sales, purchases and what we saw at the show... it is also rather common to see a newbie stand outside the group and attempt to listen.... at every show I have been at that person was invited to sit in and join the conversation....

Yes, there is an inner circle... BUT NO they do not exclude anyone from joining the conversations....

 

Just because you haven't seen it does not mean it doesn't happen.

 

 

Yah, sure, go prove a negative.

 

On other hand, go prove the statement argued... ALL the backslapping and joviality directed only at inner circles. Sounds paranoid. And, just as hard to prove as your snark, "just because you have not seen it does not mean it does not happen".

 

So... I'll lay down my observations, limited as they are to 220 days or more spent at 70 or so pen shows, recognizing a key caveat that my experience so far is with only USA-based shows.

 

1. I have never seen any pen show dealer who shows joviality at all (some though do seem preternaturally lacking in joviality towards ALL) be unwilling to be jovial with newbies.
2. No dealer, even the most jovial in general, possibly can be jovial to maximal degree all the time. Thus, anyone is at risk for encountering a non-jovial moment. So it goes.
3. I have not seen backslapping occur ever at a pen show, to outer or inner circles, however they might be formally defined.
4. At my first or second pen show as an interested fellow even more hack amateur newbie than I am now, I was invited to meals during the off-peak "pen culture" hours by folks with established credentials in the hobby.
5. I have returned the favor noted in #4 many times over. Interested "new" collectors who chat at my table often receive invitations by me to hang with the gang at night.
6. Obviously #5 does not occur in every instance and quiet passersby can be missed. So it goes. All the more reason to speak up when one, as a super-newbie, meets folks at shows.
7. Painfully, when sitting behind my dealer table i spend well more time total and often well more time per visit with collectors who buy nothing than with those who do buy. Folks who want a pen find it quickly usually. Folks who want simply to explore my 400 pen display to gain knowledge, seem content to milk the process for the longest possible time. Hey, that's ok, but I do assert that dealers do not give short shrift to those found to be non-buyers in retrospect.
8. I point out that the better and bigger deals obviously and correctly take place amongst those in those who are connected, in-the-know, and friendly and trusting of those with whom they deal. Why would one be surprised or even worse miffed that folks who've done good business with each other for ten years, would plan to do more business with each other behind the tables.
9. It is inevitable and understandable that some cliquishness will exist. For each of us eager to invite a new collector to join dinner chat, there are some at shows on serious business for their occupation that necessitates a business focus and that often requires some degree of discretion and privacy.

Upshot...

 

1. Certainly it is possible one had a disproportionally negative experience at a pen show. Life occurs on a bell curve. If thousands of positive/negative experiences compose the curve, then a some at either end will be outliers.
2. Some pen shows are friendlier than others.
3. To some degree one gets out of a show what he puts in, and this does not reference simply... money. Talking to people, asking polite questions, being upfront about goals (I don't mind browsers. I do prefer they not act as if they are present to buy when they have no intention to buy), leads to better outcome.
4. Pen shows are people. Some people are more inclined to outreach than others. If one dialogue fails, pursue another.
5. Do respect the show rules. If there is a fee to enter, don't be angry there is a fee to enter.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm tired. More later... maybe.

 

-d

Edited April 11, 2009 by david i

[david i]

Well, First, I seriously doubt that any pen show, or any other enterprise that invites the public in to an activity, provides for their accommodations, and that of the sellers, no matter how small would only have one person doing all of the tasks involved.

 

Second, I am curios as to how anyone could make a significant profit from selling Fountain Pens at shows. They are not frequent enough, sales volumes are fairly low at each show, transportation and accommodation costs are high, and Show Organizers charge to set up. As I see it, only those whom are participating as sales Representatives of major manufactures, or retailers, there primarily for exposure, and those whom do repairs, again for exposure, and to complete some repairs on site actually are earning a significant income. I suggest that most everyone else is there because they enjoy it. I am not saying that some people do not earn a little extra income, but rather that most could earn significantly more income from engaging in alternative activities. Thus, selling at Pen shows for most participants is a Hobby. I have a friend whom addresses this type of situation from a highly analytical basis. He calculates the return on his investment of time for any activity of life that he can pay someone else to do, and, unless it is something he enjoys doing, or he can do it himself in less time than it would take to earn the income to pay someone else to do it, he does not do it himself. I myself literally exchange time off work for Money. In my case, literally every minute I take off for Holiday costs me cash. Thus, I would never consider setting up and selling anything, unless it was enjoyable. My wife and I used to deal in antiques, and we seldom in net showed any profit when we factored in the costs associated with obtaining the merchandise, preparing it for sale, transporting it, paying the associated fees to sell it, and paid the required taxes.

 

The answers in part must recognzine ambiguity inherent in one of your opening sentences.... the word, "significant".

 

If a collector wishes to move stock, if that collector does not have a store, does not sell on ebay, but travels to shows a few times a year, and sells $10,000 in pens at a given show... well... I would consider that significant.

 

If one goes to 8-9 shows per year, one might move a fair amount of stock.

 

Pens shows feature table holders with disparate goal sets.

 

Not all sellers are retail dealers making livelihood from pens.

 

Many dealers-- full time, vest pocket, part time-- come to pen shows more to buy stock rather than sell stock, having other outlets to liquidate their holdings. I am not greatly disappointed, from a business standpoint, if I sell no pens at a show but buy well for my website. But, I concede it is nice to sell some pens as well.

 

And, as you note, many table holders are collectors who just enjoy a bit of buy and sell as part of their current hobby equilibrium.

 

-d

Edited April 11, 2009 by david i

[david i]

$43.74 US just to get into a pen show?

 

 

er...I don't think so.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

 

Depends on what the show has to offer

 

d