Saturated Inks Why ?

[Eternally Noodling]

I'd just like to ask a question of Nathan: What can be done with Noodler's Standard Black to eliminate the post-dry smudging problem?

 

 

Try cheaper paper, more porous paper, or a finer nib with less flow. I've never had it smudge unless on dense papers or coated papers. It was originally designed for a New Yorker who liked to have his crossword puzzles "never feather, never bleed, and can still use the paper as an umbrella when it rains!"...so it does very well on newsprint too, particularly well on newsprint. THERE ARE many paper grades out there and some legal pads that will exhibit near instantaneous dry times with zero smudging when using Noodler's Standard Black. It also can depend on flow and humidity (90%+ humidity will tend to make ANY water based ink feather and/or smudge).

 

Notice that SOME glossy magazine paper can smear, but the standard government paper and post office paper does not? If you need it to penetrate those denser grades, you might also consider "Heart of Darkness" which eliminates the resistance to penetration on several more paper grades (but is more feather prone on a paper such as newsprint or high recycled content papers).

 

Hope this helps.

[Fox in the Stars]

I'd just like to ask a question of Nathan: What can be done with Noodler's Standard Black to eliminate the post-dry smudging problem?

 

(I know, I'm not Nathan.) I've had good anti-smudge results by cutting it 3:1 ink to artist surfactant (Liquitex Flow-Aid, straight from the bottle), or you might try water. It might not feel so pretty at the tip of the pen tho. I've also heard Inksafe from Tryphon recommended, one drop per bottle, but I haven't tried it, so I can't say how it effects the smudging.

[frotz]

I'd just like to ask a question of Nathan: What can be done with Noodler's Standard Black to eliminate the post-dry smudging problem?

 

 

Try cheaper paper, more porous paper, or a finer nib with less flow. I've never had it smudge unless on dense papers or coated papers. It was originally designed for a New Yorker who liked to have his crossword puzzles "never feather, never bleed, and can still use the paper as an umbrella when it rains!"...so it does very well on newsprint too, particularly well on newsprint. THERE ARE many paper grades out there and some legal pads that will exhibit near instantaneous dry times with zero smudging when using Noodler's Standard Black. It also can depend on flow and humidity (90%+ humidity will tend to make ANY water based ink feather and/or smudge).

 

Notice that SOME glossy magazine paper can smear, but the standard government paper and post office paper does not? If you need it to penetrate those denser grades, you might also consider "Heart of Darkness" which eliminates the resistance to penetration on several more paper grades (but is more feather prone on a paper such as newsprint or high recycled content papers).

 

Hope this helps.

 

Three papers in particular that are troublesome with Noodler's Black are Officemax's Copy Paper, Docket Gold quadrille legal pads by Top, and Mead's bound hardcover composition books (smudges worst). I haven't found a fountain pen ink that won't smudge on glossy paper. For post office stuff, I noticed that the green side of a customs declaration form smudges with lots of inks, including gel. Soon I will switch to bound notebooks of the sort sold by bookfactory.com or Eureka Lab Books. I'd like to continue using Noodler's Black with those.

 

[frotz]

I'd just like to ask a question of Nathan: What can be done with Noodler's Standard Black to eliminate the post-dry smudging problem?

 

(I know, I'm not Nathan.) I've had good anti-smudge results by cutting it 3:1 ink to artist surfactant (Liquitex Flow-Aid, straight from the bottle), or you might try water. It might not feel so pretty at the tip of the pen tho. I've also heard Inksafe from Tryphon recommended, one drop per bottle, but I haven't tried it, so I can't say how it effects the smudging.

 

I tried this with tapwater a week ago and the results were less than satisfactory. The stark blackness turned to dark grey and the smudging problem was only slightly reduced. I'll get some surfactant today and try that.

[Margana]

...Actually, doesn't somebody around here run a pen wiki? Perhaps this information should be deposited on such an animal and vendors should be encouraged to either link to that information or incorporate the content in their descriptions. I don't know...

Nathan's variety of formulations can be confusing even to an experienced ink and pen user. But researching information before purchasing puts me off when it isn't compiled somewhere or easily accessed with a search. Why not a Noodler's website with ALL the data?

 

Case in point: As a watercolorist I prefer translucency, shading, and outlining properties to heavily saturated colors. So I gravitate towards inks that produce those properties in a variety of pens making Diamine one of the best brands for me. In following this thread and another on dry writing pens, I discovered how to achieve those first two characteristics with a Noodler's ink that I sidelined several months ago. Now I can also see how to put many inks that were disappointing into regular use. This may not make me a die-hard Noodler's fan but it does make me a happier customer.

 

Had I missed this thread, that ink would still be unused. A comprehensive site could have made Noodler's a favored ink for me rather than a group of white boxes on a shelf. That in no way denigrates the ink but it does demonstrate the benefit of giving the consumer enough information to get the best use of a product.

 

OMG! I just realized how many bottles and sample vials of Noodler's ink I have left to test. This could take weeks!

 

 

[Titivillus]

Yes a dialog would be nice but it seems that it wasn't started that way. It started with a possibly kinda sorta semi-trollish verging on information gathering post :embarrassed_smile: by a manufacturer ( or representative) of an ink company that does not make saturated inks asking why everyone wants saturated ink. Then it's just been people defending their choices.

There hasn't been much dialog

 

:blink: I see no reason to blame Phil. He asked a perfectly good question---yes, a question he has a vested interest in, but that doesn't invalidate it. He mentioned the objective fact that problems with the saturated inks often come up and people still like them, but framed it as curiosity not disrespect.

 

Whoa there I never blamed Phil in fact read my post again I said it had the slightest hint mixed with information gathering. He broad brushed all saturated inks, of which he does not make, as problematic. But like the "why do all Montblanc pens explode and people keep buying them" sort of question it is a loaded question no matter how you want to describe it.

 

...And a page later the ink maker who initially asked a question gets called out as a troll??

 

I would again ask you to read my post as I did not call the original poster a troll. If I was going to do that I would the original question was not a pure troll post but since the writer makes a non-saturated ink asking about saturated inks and saying that they have problems is edging away from strictly information. Maybe it could have been written differently.

 

Anyway I didn't say that and you read what you wanted to see. Fine but my intention was to again say that a rather loaded initial question was put out there that was ripe for dialog between two manufacturers of ink that did not occur. I am sorry as I would have hoped some information about the 'black art' of ink creation would have been put out in public and I might have gotten a better understanding of the chemistry of ink.

 

but it didn't happen,

 

Kurt

Edited March 8, 2008 by Tytyvyllus

[Jimmy James]

I have to say that I can see where you're coming from when saying it was a loaded question the way it was posed, Kurt. It was no more or less loaded than what many of us have said here (as with your MB example or some of the things Nathan has said about various inks, such as the one made in New York once upon a time).

 

At the same time, I think using the term "semi-trollish" was itself a loaded term and led to the misunderstanding of what you were getting at. It's all just another lesson in how communicating in print is harder than doing so in person if you ask me.

[Titivillus]

At the same time, I think using the term "semi-trollish" was itself a loaded term and led to the misunderstanding of what you were getting at.

 

 

Yes that's why I didn't just have one word but 4 or 5 other ones along side it: a possibly kinda sorta semi-trollish verging on information gathering post.

 

 

Kurt

Edited March 8, 2008 by Tytyvyllus

[Paddler]

I have been in the utmost cogitabundity of cogitation on this subject, and a question has surfaced in the bagpipe of my mind, to wit, i.e., and viz: How difficult would it be for a pen manufacturer to make a pen (nib, feed, and reservoir) that would behave well with both thin and saturated inks? Is this beyond the limits of technology, art, physics, engineering, and pencraft? Perhaps our nibmeister members could address this? :hmm1:

 

Paddler

 

 

[Jimmy James]

At the same time, I think using the term "semi-trollish" was itself a loaded term and led to the misunderstanding of what you were getting at.

 

 

Yes that's why I didn't just have one word but 4 or 5 other ones along side it: a possibly kinda sorta semi-trollish verging on information gathering post.

 

 

Kurt

 

The word trollish is such a strong word, it tends to overpower the rest. It would be like me comparing somebody's lily-white complexion to the getups used by a notorious white supremacy organization. Even if I didn't mean to derail my message with the comparison, I think the result would be derailing the conversation.

Edited March 9, 2008 by Jimmy James

[Jimmy James]

I have been in the utmost cogitabundity of cogitation on this subject, and a question has surfaced in the bagpipe of my mind, to wit, i.e., and viz: How difficult would it be for a pen manufacturer to make a pen (nib, feed, and reservoir) that would behave well with both thin and saturated inks? Is this beyond the limits of technology, art, physics, engineering, and pencraft? Perhaps our nibmeister members could address this? :hmm1:

 

Paddler

 

Don't a lot of pens accomplish this pretty well? There are a bunch in my collection I use with any and all inks without any regard for the qualities of the ink with no negative effects. Indeed, the pens that give me the most problems with things like drying out are Waterman Kulturs. They dry out with Pelikan ink, Waterman ink, Levenger ink, and Noodler's ink so far.

[Paddler]

Don't a lot of pens accomplish this pretty well? There are a bunch in my collection I use with any and all inks without any regard for the qualities of the ink with no negative effects. Indeed, the pens that give me the most problems with things like drying out are Waterman Kulturs. They dry out with Pelikan ink, Waterman ink, Levenger ink, and Noodler's ink so far.

 

I don't know. I haven't been aware of the problem long enough to make a study of it. I do have a few of pens that are dry writers, even with thin vintage inks. I have just assumed that they needed a bit of wrenching to put them right for use with all inks. With that in mind, I have been studying the various sites dealing with nibcraft, trying to learn the whichness of the how. After reading this thread, I have a bit of trepidation about my chances of making a success of the project.

 

A few inks in my collection are so overloaded with dye that, after one fill is used up, the feeds of my pens look like the face of a toddler who has been eating oatmeal. This "ink mung" is obviously not the fault of the pen. It is a shame, too -- I like the colors of these inks.

 

At any rate, I may keep a dry-writer or two for use in vetting new inks that I buy. If they balk with a certain ink, I will use it with dip pens until it is gone; no need to hassle my everyday rotation with a mulish ink.

 

Paddler

 

[Titivillus]

A few inks in my collection are so overloaded with dye that, after one fill is used up, the feeds of my pens look like the face of a toddler who has been eating oatmeal. This "ink mung" is obviously not the fault of the pen. It is a shame, too -- I like the colors of these inks.

 

Can you list what these inks are. I must be lucky but want to be sure I stay away from them.

 

thanks,

 

Kurt

 

[Eternally Noodling]

I'd just like to ask a question of Nathan: What can be done with Noodler's Standard Black to eliminate the post-dry smudging problem?

 

 

Try cheaper paper, more porous paper, or a finer nib with less flow. I've never had it smudge unless on dense papers or coated papers. It was originally designed for a New Yorker who liked to have his crossword puzzles "never feather, never bleed, and can still use the paper as an umbrella when it rains!"...so it does very well on newsprint too, particularly well on newsprint. THERE ARE many paper grades out there and some legal pads that will exhibit near instantaneous dry times with zero smudging when using Noodler's Standard Black. It also can depend on flow and humidity (90%+ humidity will tend to make ANY water based ink feather and/or smudge).

 

Notice that SOME glossy magazine paper can smear, but the standard government paper and post office paper does not? If you need it to penetrate those denser grades, you might also consider "Heart of Darkness" which eliminates the resistance to penetration on several more paper grades (but is more feather prone on a paper such as newsprint or high recycled content papers).

 

Hope this helps.

 

Three papers in particular that are troublesome with Noodler's Black are Officemax's Copy Paper, Docket Gold quadrille legal pads by Top, and Mead's bound hardcover composition books (smudges worst). I haven't found a fountain pen ink that won't smudge on glossy paper. For post office stuff, I noticed that the green side of a customs declaration form smudges with lots of inks, including gel. Soon I will switch to bound notebooks of the sort sold by bookfactory.com or Eureka Lab Books. I'd like to continue using Noodler's Black with those.

 

I write using a few of those papers myself without smudging - using a Platinum eyedropper right now that has a fine nib but a very dark line. It is 35% humidity here. Office Max copy paper, 20 lb ream, 88 to 92 brightness, non-recycled...have no smudging (slamming my palm down on it right now).

 

Polar Black was made to work on triplicates (hospital forms, carbon copy forms, many of the chemical coated papers) because the original request for it was from people who needed it to do that. It is as bulletproof as standard black. It became more complex as time went on and people requested that it behave in certain ways - often in unusual situations.

 

Nile Ebony by SwisherPens.com penetrates much faster, but may feather on some of those documents. It is 75% bulletproof.

 

Heart of Darkness always includes a free Platinum eyedropper pen with the 4.5 oz bottle (shop around for the best price, as the markups vary on that one). It is also bulletproof and certainly exhibits greater penetration abilities on dense and coated papers.

 

Hope this helps.

 

[Paddler]

A few inks in my collection are so overloaded with dye that, after one fill is used up, the feeds of my pens look like the face of a toddler who has been eating oatmeal. This "ink mung" is obviously not the fault of the pen. It is a shame, too -- I like the colors of these inks.

 

Can you list what these inks are. I must be lucky but want to be sure I stay away from them.

 

thanks,

 

Kurt

 

Two that mung up my pens with one fill-up are Levenger's Cocoa and Levenger's Cardinal Red. Amethyst does the same thing after three or four fills. This happens with pens that have gills that the ink can wet. A pen with a feed that is shiny smooth and does not get wet, like a Platignum Silverline, has no problem with these inks.

 

A few of my pens are rather dry writers and they are marginal with Waterman Black and Noodler's Fox Red and Britannia's Blue Waves: they are hard to start after a few hours nib-up; they are OK after being left horizontal. After a while, they begin to mung the nib near the slit. Levenger's Cardinal Red, Cocoa, Gemstone Green, Amethyst, Raven Black, and Cobalt Blue won't work in them at all. Blue Black Quink, Black Quink, Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Red and Brilliant Green, and all the Skrip I have work OK.

 

I have lots of other inks and pens but I have not tried all permutations and combinations. Doing that would use up a lot of expensive ink.

 

Paddler

 

[KCat]

as to excarnate's:

Why wouldn't someone (usually) want a saturated ink?

 

"less saturated" doesn't translate to "weak" or "illegible"

 

Absolutely. I doubt you got that out of my post. But a nice solid saturated line will be easier to read than one that is less saturated.

 

 

I disagree. I have no more trouble reading a line of writing written with Diamine Umber or J. Herbin Emerald than I do reading a line of Levenger Cobalt or PR DC Blue. It's a matter of degree. I do struggle to read anything written with Noodler's Highland Heather or J. Herbin Vert Pre or Quink Washable Blue.

 

It comes down to your goal. It was asked 'why saturated?' but I think the default should be saturated and the question should be 'why not saturated?'. When someone wants to (you may say "is ready to") go to inks with more variation or that are less saturated (subtle, if you like) that's perfectly fine, but generally a pen is to write with and to write is to imply read....

 

Strictly speaking, yes. But you're approach implies a very black and white viewpoint. "Saturated = easy to read", "unsaturated=less easy to read." Since I disagree with that, then I disagree with your assessment that "saturated" should be the default. What I *do* agree with is that *legible* should be the default. From there, it is strictly personal preference as to whether you find unsaturated inks more appealing than saturated.

 

I also still maintain that a *chemically* saturated ink should certainly not be the default. And we know there are some such inks out there. PR's Dakota Red is one, just so you know I am not picking on Noodler's here.

 

It may be true to say that certain colors require color saturation. I find an unsaturated Red to be difficult to read.

 

As far as what saturated means...

(of colors) of maximum chroma or purity; of the highest intensity of hue; free from admixture of white.

from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=saturated

 

Yes, in terms of color, that is the correct definition. In terms of chemical mixes, saturation means that the diluent contains the maximum amount of whatever (let's say dye in this case but it could be NaCl, sugar or any other chemical that mixes with the diluent) that it can hold before particles precipitate. Since Phil mentioned "overloading", I interpreted that he was referring as much to chemical saturation as color saturation. But only Phil can clarify that.

 

Ohhhhh Phiiiiillll...

[frotz]

Okay, I've acquired a bottle of ox gall liquid from the craft store, which appears to be the sort of surfactant that someone referred to. Does anyone here have any informed opinions on how to proceed with this? Of course, I'll filter the floaties.

[excarnate]

As far as what saturated means...

(of colors) of maximum chroma or purity; of the highest intensity of hue; free from admixture of white.

from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=saturated

Yes, in terms of color, that is the correct definition. In terms of chemical mixes, saturation means that the diluent contains the maximum amount of whatever (let's say dye in this case but it could be NaCl, sugar or any other chemical that mixes with the diluent) that it can hold before particles precipitate. Since Phil mentioned "overloading", I interpreted that he was referring as much to chemical saturation as color saturation. But only Phil can clarify that.

The first part of your reply (legibility) cries out for a handwritten response, or if I am not allowed the time (likely) then pointers to ink reviews that illustrate what I'm talking about. I suspect we largely agree. Especially in the context of what I interpret Phil to be asking. However...

 

I figure that Phil wouldn't ask a general audience about chemical saturation, but perhaps English is, again, to blame for being such a perverse language (I speak as someone teaching a 5-year-old that the same word can mean many, many different things).

 

Phil? What should we be talking about here? Color intensity/saturation? Inks that have bits precipitating out/are chemically <something>? Something else?

 

Phil, what is your assessment of the discussion so far? We know what Nathan (Noodler's) thinks, perhaps about more than just ink saturation ;-)

 

 

Brian <-- still searching for the Pilot Petit1 blue-black in a bottle, if that tells you something!

[Liverpool 1]

Hi Everyone,

 

I would like to offer my apologies for not posting earlier, i am actually away on family buisness and it is not easy to reply, as soon as i return i will post some of my thoughts.

 

Just in brief though !! the orginal topic i posted was simply a curiosity question asking for the personel views of experianced writers, this was not a sales ploy and in no way was intended as an attack on any other brand of ink, i have a great deal of respect and admiration for anyone who makes ink believe me it is not always easy.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Phil (The Troll)

 

 

[Deirdre]

Thanks Phil (and Nathan) for being here.

 

Honestly, as you say, I have a great respect for any smaller companies making ink.

 

It's sort of like Project Runway: each designer has their own point of view, and there's no definitive right or wrong, just what the client prefers.