I am now totally confused

[OldGriz]

The Parker 21 set that I purchased (https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5894) is now confusing me

Over on Pentrace, there is a discussion as to whether it is a Super 21 (I have no idea of what that is) or maybe a "frankenpen", either a factory frankenpen or customer frankenpen....

Here is the thread

"OK, this pen is clearly a Super 21, with the typical 21 clutch ring and the 51-style feed and octanium nib.

The question is: if you find this same pen (51 feed and octanium nib), with the same cap (including a Parker 21 imprint), BUT with a 51-style clutch ring, what do you have in your hands?. Did the Super 21 was ever done using 51 clutch rings?. Or did Janesville pop 21 caps

on 51 Demi Specials and sold it as Super 21s (as they are essentially identical pens)?."

 

What is the difference between a 21 and a Super 21 and what are the benefits/disadvantages of one over the other....

 

YEAH, YEAH, I KNOW... I am becoming a real PIA.... BUT YOU GUYS STARTED IT...

[nmb]

Richard Binder has a profile on the 21 and the 51 here and here. Idon't know the specifics, but I think the article explains most of the differences (very subtle!). I think that the people in that thread are quibbling over brass tacks. You got a great set of beautiful pens for a great price. Who cares what they are! (I think that the claim of "factory frankenpen" is ridiculous. However it came out of the factory is the way it was meant to be.)

[djahughes]

That's just typical of the Pentrace Board... They all need to get out a lot more...

 

Has anybody calling themselves 'Observer' posted in the thread?

 

Pentrace is without doubt the most unfriendly, elite and insular forum I have ever seen on the web.

 

FPN is the complete opposite! Happy to be here and not there!

Edited December 15, 2005 by djahughes

[OldGriz]

Richard Binder has a profile on the 21 and the 51 here and here. Idon't know the specifics, but I think the article explains most of the differences (very subtle!). I think that the people in that thread are quibbling over brass tacks. You got a great set of beautiful pens for a great price. Who cares what they are! (I think that the claim of "factory frankenpen" is ridiculous. However it came out of the factory is the way it was meant to be.)

Other than being confused about nomenclature, I love this set and it is a keeper... will become my daughter's set when she is old enough to really appreciate a fine old pen/pencil set.....

Considering it is my first real 'collectable' piece... and at the right price and it writes very nicely... it is a keeper...

[antoniosz]

That's just typical of the Pentrace Board... They all need to get out a lot more...

Has anybody calling themselves 'Observer' posted in the thread?

Pentrace is without doubt the most unfriendly, elite and insular forum I have ever seen on the web.

FPN is the complete opposite! Happy to be here and not there!

Well I wish you were correct - but boards do not have a life of their own. It is the people that make them. There is absolutely nothing that prevents any of these imature people to post and participate here (actually some already do :ph34r: ).

As to the ultimate of elitism, you ain't seen anything yet. There are some other places ... Don't get me started.

 

Actually, djahughes, I am afraid that you are not going to like my comment but anyway. You are excersicing a kind of elitism yourself. There are people that are interested in these minute details because they are interested in the historical aspects of pen collecting. You may not enjoy it yourself but there is no reason to put them down, just because they are not the same with you

 

Tom your pen is fine (although I am afraid you got bitten by the collecting bug). The person that made that post was asking a hypothetical question - he was not refering to your pen.

Edited December 15, 2005 by antoniosz

[KCat]

Biased as I am toward FPN because of my history with it, I'd like to ask that we not turn a valid pen discussion into discussion about the merits of one group or another (be it a pen group or a people group.) I appreciate the balanced reply, Antonios. It's just that historically, a thread that goes off on this tangent will become more critical of individuals and pen groups than is suitable for FPN's otherwise pleasant atmosphere.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

Read what it says on the band of the filler unit. It should tell you whether it is a 21 or super 21.

 

Dillon

[Guest Denis Richard]

Hi Tom,

 

the person who posted that comment was refering to his own pen, similar to your model, but will a 51 clutch ring. Yours is kosher

 

On the pen research side, what is typical is the number of interpretations you will find about a model, or even just the thought of a model. In most cases, there is just not data to support most of the claims or scenarios you will find out there. One good rule is to take seriously people who will tell you what hard data they have, and make minimum assumptions. If you start reading collectors who will tell you about the personality of the grand-nephew of the wife of the chief account of the Parker company and why it explains that the blind cap on the three-nibbed Shmooshy-Shabby-Parky (a sub-brand related to Parker at the 27th degree) is brilliant red instead of bright red... just run.

 

While there are novel-writers, there are also people out there with exceptional data collection and skilled at interpreting them. You just need to recognize them. But don't worry... it usually becomes clear pretty quickly.

[Maja]

<snip>

If you start reading collectors who will tell you about the personality of the grand-nephew of the wife of the chief account of the Parker company and why it explains that the blind cap on the three-nibbed Shmooshy-Shabby-Parky (a sub-brand related to Parker at the 27th degree) is brilliant red instead of bright red... just run.

:lol:

[FLZapped]

I noticed your pen had the narrower opening, like the flighter version I have. May be a super. Caps get swapped all over the place, that might not be a good indicator. Either way, ya did good.

 

BTW - any luck with that amber supplier? I also noticed on a knife I bought my son that they used a white epoxy(?) that acted as an opaque base and gap filler on the amber side panels, which would eliminate that problem you mentioned regarding the showing of the inner pen barrel.

 

-Bruce

[Michael Wright]

What is the difference between a 21 and a Super 21 and what are the benefits/disadvantages of one over the other....

 

YEAH, YEAH, I KNOW... I am becoming a real PIA.... BUT YOU GUYS STARTED IT...

Hi Griz

 

As I understand it, the difference between a 21 and a Super 21 is that the Super 21 has the same collector system for ink delivery to the nib. The 21, like many of the non-Parker imitations of and homages to the "51," has a conventional nib and feed covered by the hood, so that the hood is purely cosmetic on these pens.

 

Further, Parker made a "51" Special, which is essentially an Aerometric "51" but with a steel ("Octanium") nib rather than gold.

 

I believe that 21s were made out of a less robust plastic than the "51," though whether this applies to the Super 21 or not, I don't know. 21s have a different and cheaper cap than "51"s, and it doesn't quite fit on a "51" (I have a nice pen with a couple of little chips in the barrel because it's a marriage between a "51" and a 21 cap).

 

There are a whole bunch of variations on the design of the Aerometric filler, too, but these are non-functional.

 

You can see the marketing point of all these variations, though you could probably do a paper for an MBA course on the question of "51" Special versus 21 Super as a way of segmenting the market.

 

Of course, when a pen was repaired, it might have been fitted with a part intended for a different model, if it worked.

 

They can all write very nicely, and you've got a nice set there.

 

Michael

 

who may be in factual error on some of the details