Which Could Be My Next Pen?

[SoulSamurai]

That's why I am considering the 3776 Century. But at $180 plus its not a price I am willing to pay. Will try and see if I can find a discount.

I'm pretty sure you can find the basic 3776 Century for under $100 if you buy it directly from a Japanese seller. Check Amazon and Ebay.

[bemon]

 

That's why I am considering the 3776 Century. But at $180 plus its not a price I am willing to pay. Will try and see if I can find a discount.

Not sure what you mean by polished finishes. Steel nibs polished with gold?

I am using a Plaisir with a F nib and quite like it.

 

That means I should be going for a Lamy EF or maybe a F should suffice?

 

I am not sure I'll be able to tune the nib if I don't get a good writing experience. From what you're saying it may be a better idea to go for a M, but then that will be too thick for my uses.

Actually, I just got a tip in the previous response. See here for superb deals on the L2k -

 

https://endlesspens.com/collections/lamy-fountain-pens

 

This is easily the best discount I've seen. Though weirdly, they have two different 2000s on sale - one for 125 and the other for 135, with the former on pre-order.

 

I think I paid $150 for my 3776 by ordering directly from Japan over eBay. That's CAD, so if the prices are in line with what I paid you'll get away for less factoring in the USD conversion. But that was a few years ago and I haven't looked recently. Might just take some waiting and shopping for the right number!

 

By polished finishes I meant the nib section where you hold on to. I find steel or even plastic finished to a high gloss polish cause my fingers to slip. I've got pens with steel nib sections but they're textured to some degree and in that case they work fine. The degree of polish on a nib won't affect your writing.

 

I've never used a Plaisir, but if it's a standard Japanese fine then you'd probably want to angle for a German extra fine. But you'd have to lean on someone else' experience there. I'm not a fan of fine nibs I like 'em as close to a paint brush as possible. I have heard that the L2K in fine and extra fine has a very small sweet spot. The "butter on hot glass" writing experience I get with my medium or broad may not be achievable on an extra fine. Hopefully someone here can comment based on direct experience. I had a fine nib L2K briefly 5 or 6 years ago but ended up selling it to buy a medium. I don't recall it being particularly stubborn but I have heard those comments.

 

Glad you found some 2k's for a great price! I have no idea why there's a price break between the pre-order and the in stock model. They look the same to me. I know there's a new blue edition coming out (if it's not out already) but that would be priced way higher than the base MSRP. I'd be curious to know if you find out though.

[A Smug Dill]

I think I paid $150 for my 3776 by ordering directly from Japan over eBay. That's CAD,

 

As recently as four weeks ago, I could have ordered a Platinum #3776 Century Chartres Blue with Medium nib for just under US$70 (delivered, since I was already ordering enough other things to qualify for free international shipping). That ship has sailed, though, and the "old design" PNB-10000 models (in any colour) are no longer showing in that retailer's catalogue. Not that I regret not buying, because out of the three pens that's at the top of my "queue" of what I might sell off (uncharacteristically of me), two of them are Platinum #3776 Century models -- and that's not including a brand new Platinum #3776 Century yakusugi I never got around to inking (and am now not quite sure what I'll do with it).

[bemon]

As recently as four weeks ago, I could have ordered a Platinum #3776 Century Chartres Blue with Medium nib for just under US$70 (delivered, since I was already ordering enough other things to qualify for free international shipping). That ship has sailed, though, and the "old design" PNB-10000 models (in any colour) are no longer showing in that retailer's catalogue. Not that I regret not buying, because out of the three pens that's at the top of my "queue" of what I might sell off (uncharacteristically of me), two of them are Platinum #3776 Century models -- and that's not including a brand new Platinum #3776 Century yakusugi I never got around to inking (and am now not quite sure what I'll do with it).

That's awesome- So about $100 AUD if the CAD/AUD dollar is still near par. That would have been a good deal even if you sold it. I'm debating selling mine too- it doesn't get used. I have a bad habit of using 3-4 pens and stashing the rest.

 

I used to ink them all up at one time or another but when I turned our spare room into a nursery for my daughter I had to get rid of my formal desk and thus I have no more easily accessible pen storage. We installed a fold out desk in our living room but it's only big enough for a laptop and a few basic supplies so most of my pens are boxed up in storage. So I've been selling here and there, but I still really like the 3776. Just not quite as much as my EDC.

[AMlines]

I'm pretty sure you can find the basic 3776 Century for under $100 if you buy it directly from a Japanese seller. Check Amazon and Ebay.

 

Oh! That's amazing. Surely, there are some downsides?

Also, I am curious as to why there are such differences in price between US sellers and these Japanese ones.

 

Edited - It is as you say!

 

https://www.amazon.com/Platinum-3776-Century-Bourgogne-Nib/dp/B007R9Z3UO/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?crid=1F81GA5CGOEJ7&keywords=platinum+plaisir+3776+century+fountain+pen&qid=1567183100&s=gateway&sprefix=platinum+plaisir+%2Caps%2C214&sr=8-1-fkmr1

 

And the seller is listed as Platinum. Does that mean it's coming straight from Japan?

Edited August 30, 2019 by AMlines

[MsRedpen]

Hopefully the photo of 3 pens you are comparing can add a bit of prospective – on aesthetics and size, side by side.

 

Pelikan(s) M200 and Platinum(s) #3776 are my EDC. Plaisir lives in my office, for markings. (Than few more birds or counts or mountains get carried around in a pen case in my purse).

 

Steel nibs on all M200/205 I have were perfect out of the box, and perform really well. Piston mechanism is great, reliable, pen holds a lot of ink. Few of my Pelikans are 50+ years old, with piston mechanism still working good. It needs very rarely (every few years) greasing, which is easy to do with Pelikans.

I am not taking any pen apart for cleaning when changing inks – good flushing with water, wicking extra water overnight in a cup with kitchen towel (it should come clean) – and voila!

 

Platinum #3776 is another joy to use, especially SF nib that writes well on any type of office paper.

 

I will throw another brand into the consideration – Faber Castell. Great steel nibs, unusual pen design and models in different price points.

 

Btw – neither of these pens have neither the grip nor the nib writing feel as Plaisir. They are much nicer than Plaisir!

 

Obviously – this are my personal choices which suit my hand and my writing habits – my intention was simply to show how those 3 look one next to the other.

 

Good luck and let us know your final choice!

 

[bemon]

Hopefully the photo of 3 pens you are comparing can add a bit of prospective – on aesthetics and size, side by side.

 

Pelikan(s) M200 and Platinum(s) #3776 are my EDC. Plaisir lives in my office, for markings. (Than few more birds or counts or mountains get carried around in a pen case in my purse).

 

Steel nibs on all M200/205 I have were perfect out of the box, and perform really well. Piston mechanism is great, reliable, pen holds a lot of ink. Few of my Pelikans are 50+ years old, with piston mechanism still working good. It needs very rarely (every few years) greasing, which is easy to do with Pelikans.

I am not taking any pen apart for cleaning when changing inks – good flushing with water, wicking extra water overnight in a cup with kitchen towel (it should come clean) – and voila!

 

Platinum #3776 is another joy to use, especially SF nib that writes well on any type of office paper.

 

I will throw another brand into the consideration – Faber Castell. Great steel nibs, unusual pen design and models in different price points.

 

Btw – neither of these pens have neither the grip nor the nib writing feel as Plaisir. They are much nicer than Plaisir!

 

Obviously – this are my personal choices which suit my hand and my writing habits – my intention was simply to show how those 3 look one next to the other.

 

Good luck and let us know your final choice!

 

That was a good idea. And I actually second Faber Castell. I wasn't thinking about them, but I have a Graf Von Faber Castell Tamitio which I believe is a re branded FC Ambition. Let me tell you, that steel medium nib Tamitio is 10 times better than my gold nibbed GVFC Classics in either medium or fine. If the Ambition uses the same nib then it's a great suggestion.

[AMlines]

I think I paid $150 for my 3776 by ordering directly from Japan over eBay. That's CAD, so if the prices are in line with what I paid you'll get away for less factoring in the USD conversion. But that was a few years ago and I haven't looked recently. Might just take some waiting and shopping for the right number!

Yes, I checked on Amazon here in the US and I see a 3776 going for $98 with the seller listed as Platinum. So, I can see why members are suggesting looking around to get a good deal.

Btw, given these varying price ranges for the same pen, should one expect to see some difference in quality too? Is it possible that the cheaper pens have some minor issues because of which they are priced low?

By polished finishes I meant the nib section where you hold on to. I find steel or even plastic finished to a high gloss polish cause my fingers to slip. I've got pens with steel nib sections but they're textured to some degree and in that case they work fine. The degree of polish on a nib won't affect your writing.

Of course. That would be me, too. I like the grip on the Plaisir and other resin grips because they are smooth but also grippy without being heavy.

Btw, how was your experience with the grip on the Lamy 2000?

I've never used a Plaisir, but if it's a standard Japanese fine then you'd probably want to angle for a German extra fine. But you'd have to lean on someone else' experience there. I'm not a fan of fine nibs I like 'em as close to a paint brush as possible. I have heard that the L2K in fine and extra fine has a very small sweet spot. The "butter on hot glass" writing experience I get with my medium or broad may not be achievable on an extra fine. Hopefully someone here can comment based on direct experience.

Yes, I've been hearing this. I have no experience tuning nibs and as a non-expert expect them to work out of the box.

And, also how the quality control on European nibs is not the best. I will be writing often on A4 normal paper which is hardly high quality. So, a F or EF is important. Besides, I like fine lines. So, getting a M nib Lamy is unlikely. I may just look to other pens such as the Platinum 3776 or something else.

I had a fine nib L2K briefly 5 or 6 years ago but ended up selling it to buy a medium. I don't recall it being particularly stubborn but I have heard those comments.

I've been wanting to ask members about selling pens, since I keep seeing references. How does that work? My understanding was that once you use a pen for some time the nib "sets" in place. Wouldn't the nib be damaged if someone else tried to use a pen you used?

Glad you found some 2k's for a great price! I have no idea why there's a price break between the pre-order and the in stock model. They look the same to me. I know there's a new blue edition coming out (if it's not out already) but that would be priced way higher than the base MSRP. I'd be curious to know if you find out though.

If the low prices are not due to some issues with the pen, then I might just get one

[AMlines]

Steel nibs on all M200/205 I have were perfect out of the box, and perform really well. Piston mechanism is great, reliable, pen holds a lot of ink. Few of my Pelikans are 50+ years old, with piston mechanism still working good. It needs very rarely (every few years) greasing, which is easy to do with Pelikans.

I am not taking any pen apart for cleaning when changing inks – good flushing with water, wicking extra water overnight in a cup with kitchen towel (it should come clean) – and voila!

 

Platinum #3776 is another joy to use, especially SF nib that writes well on any type of office paper.

 

I will throw another brand into the consideration – Faber Castell. Great steel nibs, unusual pen design and models in different price points.

 

Btw – neither of these pens have neither the grip nor the nib writing feel as Plaisir. They are much nicer than Plaisir!

 

Obviously – this are my personal choices which suit my hand and my writing habits – my intention was simply to show how those 3 look one next to the other.

 

Good luck and let us know your final choice!

 

Thanks for putting up this comparison picture - It is quite useful!

 

Interesting to hear of your good experience with the Pelikan. Can the greasing be done yourself, or do you have to send it in to a repair shop?

 

I loved FB in school. But, haven't checked out their FPs since none of the members strongly suggested it. Now, I will check them out

 

Can you explain some more how the M200 and 3776 are better than the Plaisir? In general, I don't enjoy writing with thicker pens. The Plaisir and Pelikan are fine, but the 3776 looks too thick.

 

Have you used the Lamy 2000? How do you feel about it tapering grip, as compared to these pens?

 

Thanks!

[Noihvo]

 

[DonM]

Some opinions:

 

Pelikan M200 - Solid performer, good steel nibs, too small for me but would likely do well for you with your preferences. Easy to change nibs and get to the ink chamber for cleaning or greasing because the nib unit just unscrews (which is rarely required). In my opinion fairly priced. My oldest Pelikan is an M400 that I've had for over 20 years and has been very well used. Never a problem.

 

3776 - Likely too fat a section for you, but works perfectly for me. Easily had through Amazon from reliable Japanese sellers. I have purchased 4 this way and have never had a problem. 14K gold nibs with all that entails (variability in width in the same size designation, sometimes dry writers that need adjustment before they will perform well, etc. This is irrespective of brand and one reason why you see such divergent opinions of different pen brands. Some are great out of the box and some just aren't and need tuning no matter who made it or what price you paid.)

 

Lamy 2000 - I gave in and bought one from Endless Pens at a good price. In my opinion not worth close to the $175 price most US retailers charge. And if you don't like tapered pens you will hate the 2000. To me the piston mechanism feels really cheap, nowhere near the quality of Pelikan. Sorry I purchased it. Others think it is the ultimate.

 

At this point, I think you just need to make a choice and see what happens. No one can tell you what pen you will like or how that individual pen will perform for you. It's a matter of experience with using pens that will lead you to what you ultimately like the best. This fountain pen stuff is ultimately subjective and each individual will have a different experience and therefore different opinions on what is good and what is not.

[bemon]

Yes, I checked on Amazon here in the US and I see a 3776 going for $98 with the seller listed as Platinum. So, I can see why members are suggesting looking around to get a good deal.

Btw, given these varying price ranges for the same pen, should one expect to see some difference in quality too? Is it possible that the cheaper pens have some minor issues because of which they are priced low?

Of course. That would be me, too. I like the grip on the Plaisir and other resin grips because they are smooth but also grippy without being heavy.

Btw, how was your experience with the grip on the Lamy 2000?

Yes, I've been hearing this. I have no experience tuning nibs and as a non-expert expect them to work out of the box.

And, also how the quality control on European nibs is not the best. I will be writing often on A4 normal paper which is hardly high quality. So, a F or EF is important. Besides, I like fine lines. So, getting a M nib Lamy is unlikely. I may just look to other pens such as the Platinum 3776 or something else.

I've been wanting to ask members about selling pens, since I keep seeing references. How does that work? My understanding was that once you use a pen for some time the nib "sets" in place. Wouldn't the nib be damaged if someone else tried to use a pen you used?

If the low prices are not due to some issues with the pen, then I might just get one

Some pens at the lower end of the price spectrum could be factory seconds, so it's important to ask the seller that question. And sometimes that's not a bad thing. I bought a Pilot Falcon for $70 a few years ago because the seller said it was rejected from Pilot's factory QA due to cosmetic damage. The damage was a hairline scuff on the bottom of the nib section between the lower ring and where the nib starts. I mean.. I could have bought that thing brand new and not noticed the "damage" for a week. And then just thought it was my fault. As for performance it's 100%.

 

The L2K has a brushed stainless steel grip that I have absolutely no problem holding on to at all. My fingers naturally fall half on the steel and half on the plastic so the taper isn't an issue either.

 

I've had 4 Lamy 2000's and all of them have written reliably out of the box. Same with my Studio and two Safaris which I forced on both my wife and my sister. The issue with the 2000 nibs is that they like being held at a specific angle and they're less forgiving than other pens once you depart from the sweet spot. It's just due to the way the tipping material is laid, and obviously the broader the tipping material's surface is the more wiggle room you've got. You've just got to be precise in your movements if you want the best performance out of the pen, and that's just a matter of getting to know the tool. The one you found is a very fair price so give it some serious thought! There's a huge L2K following here and I think you'll find a lot of people have a lot of good to say about it.

 

Re: fine tipped nibs. Without a doubt a Japanese pens can put down an impressively fine line. I've read that it takes a great deal of precision to form traditional Japanese characters and their nibs are purpose built to do the job. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but loosely speaking if you like a Japanese fine, you may be safe with a western extra fine. I think I saw a post somewhere on here comparing line widths so that might give you some more insight.

 

Re: nib setting. You may be on to something, but most of us have collections that range from dozens into hundreds. I'm willing to bet most modern pens don't see enough use to develop strong wear patterns before their owners decide to swap them! I know mine certainly don't, aside from my EDC pens. That said, someone who's unfamiliar with fountain pens could certainly damage your nib by pressing too hard. But that's a different situation all together. I keep a few cheap Jinhao's in my desk drawer at work so if someone really wants to fool around with a fountain pen I can ink one up and hand it off to them. If they break it's no skin off my back.

Edited August 30, 2019 by bemon

[sansenri]

Pelikan M200, Lamy 2000, Platinum 3776.

All very nice pens.

My preference goes to the M200, I have a number of them...

The main reason, besides the piston mechanism, the ink window, the springy nibs, all rather desirable features, is essentially reliability.

It just works, and works.

I have many other pens but whenever I need a fuss free pen that will not let me down even when I grab it at the last moment (leaving on a business trip for example) I grab an M200.

[AMlines]

 

 

[AMlines]

Some opinions:

 

Pelikan M200 - Solid performer, good steel nibs, too small for me but would likely do well for you with your preferences. Easy to change nibs and get to the ink chamber for cleaning or greasing because the nib unit just unscrews (which is rarely required). In my opinion fairly priced. My oldest Pelikan is an M400 that I've had for over 20 years and has been very well used. Never a problem.

Sounds good. 20 years of good service can only be described as amazing! Did you grease the piston yourself or sent it to a service place?

3776 - Likely too fat a section for you, but works perfectly for me. Easily had through Amazon from reliable Japanese sellers. I have purchased 4 this way and have never had a problem. 14K gold nibs with all that entails (variability in width in the same size designation, sometimes dry writers that need adjustment before they will perform well, etc. This is irrespective of brand and one reason why you see such divergent opinions of different pen brands. Some are great out of the box and some just aren't and need tuning no matter who made it or what price you paid.)

Ah, I see. Yes, next up is figuring out nib tuning. That should be interesting.

Lamy 2000 - I gave in and bought one from Endless Pens at a good price. In my opinion not worth close to the $175 price most US retailers charge. And if you don't like tapered pens you will hate the 2000. To me the piston mechanism feels really cheap, nowhere near the quality of Pelikan. Sorry I purchased it. Others think it is the ultimate.

Interesting to hear you say this. Yes, I have big hands and the tapering grip means there's an added variable that needs to be kept in mind while writing. With an even grip section you can move your fingers and thumb around knowing the grip will not change.

But, the bit about the piston is useful to know. I guess at this point I am also inclined to converters for the simple reason that they too will last quite a while if cleaned etc., and there's nothing especially useful about a piston.

At this point, I think you just need to make a choice and see what happens. No one can tell you what pen you will like or how that individual pen will perform for you. It's a matter of experience with using pens that will lead you to what you ultimately like the best. This fountain pen stuff is ultimately subjective and each individual will have a different experience and therefore different opinions on what is good and what is not.

Yes, sure. The idea is to keep using the Plaisir for some time. A member suggested at least a few months, and I would agree. Then, I'll order from a short-list that I am preparing.

I do know that while I like the Plaisir, I'd like something more sophisticated.

[AMlines]

Some pens at the lower end of the price spectrum could be factory seconds, so it's important to ask the seller that question. And sometimes that's not a bad thing. I bought a Pilot Falcon for $70 a few years ago because the seller said it was rejected from Pilot's factory QA due to cosmetic damage. The damage was a hairline scuff on the bottom of the nib section between the lower ring and where the nib starts. I mean.. I could have bought that thing brand new and not noticed the "damage" for a week. And then just thought it was my fault. As for performance it's 100%.

Ah. As they say, nothing like a free lunch. Of course, I agree, and wouldn't mind getting something like you did.

The L2K has a brushed stainless steel grip that I have absolutely no problem holding on to at all. My fingers naturally fall half on the steel and half on the plastic so the taper isn't an issue either.

 

I've had 4 Lamy 2000's and all of them have written reliably out of the box. Same with my Studio and two Safaris which I forced on both my wife and my sister. The issue with the 2000 nibs is that they like being held at a specific angle and they're less forgiving than other pens once you depart from the sweet spot. It's just due to the way the tipping material is laid, and obviously the broader the tipping material's surface is the more wiggle room you've got. You've just got to be precise in your movements if you want the best performance out of the pen, and that's just a matter of getting to know the tool. The one you found is a very fair price so give it some serious thought! There's a huge L2K following here and I think you'll find a lot of people have a lot of good to say about it.

Yes, I know that it's a much loved pen. I definitely find it the best looking too. I'll try and get hold of one and see how I feel about writing with it. I haven't used a tapering pen in years, but now that I look back, I know instinctively that I never took to the design. Who knows things may be different this time around

The sweet spot is also an issue. I am using a Platinum F nib and it works well for my purposes, which involve a mixed use between FP friendly paper and regular A4 sheets. So, I am not sure if the Lamy EF will be a good idea. Apparently, it needs tuning and like you said the sweet spot is limited.

Re: fine tipped nibs. Without a doubt a Japanese pens can put down an impressively fine line. I've read that it takes a great deal of precision to form traditional Japanese characters and their nibs are purpose built to do the job. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but loosely speaking if you like a Japanese fine, you may be safe with a western extra fine. I think I saw a post somewhere on here comparing line widths so that might give you some more insight.

Are you also suggesting that if one likes writing with fine and extra-fine nibs then getting a Japanese nib is likely better, because they seem to have mastered it?

Re: nib setting. You may be on to something, but most of us have collections that range from dozens into hundreds. I'm willing to bet most modern pens don't see enough use to develop strong wear patterns before their owners decide to swap them! I know mine certainly don't, aside from my EDC pens. That said, someone who's unfamiliar with fountain pens could certainly damage your nib by pressing too hard. But that's a different situation all together. I keep a few cheap Jinhao's in my desk drawer at work so if someone really wants to fool around with a fountain pen I can ink one up and hand it off to them. If they break it's no skin off my back.

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. But, now it makes sense. Still, I would want to get a new one and use it for a long time.

[MsRedpen]

...converters do not necessarily last longer if cleaned etc.. they can be bought for few eur, usd if they wear down (nipple, threads..). Piston filler pens last many, many years. I would say - it is all about personals preferences and personal habits.

 

If you would ever opt for a Pelikan, it would not need greasing few years into the use. Than this instructions would be handy

 

https://thepelikansperch.com/2014/08/30/how-to-lubricate-a-pelikan-piston/

 

I fully agree with sanseri, but we are from the generation that grew up with Pelikans as our school pens

 

Good advice to use Plaisir for few months!

 

bemon - Tamitio nib is amazing. Ambition is not the same. I should probably write a comparison in a separate post.

[sansenri]

btw it's really easy to lubricate the M200 piston (besides the fact that I have never needed to lubricate an M200 piston so far and I do have some vintage ones + M250s - whilst older Pelikans like 140s and 400NN do need lubrication), screw out the nib, put a very small dab of silicone grease (the type used for scuba diving) on the tip of a clean small plastic stick (like used for coffee) , gently run the stick inside the section to the end of the empty piston, touch the barrel walls a few times, then take the stick out, tun the piston up and down a few times and you're done. You will feel the piston run much smoother.

Edited August 30, 2019 by sansenri

[sansenri]

 

 

 

 

I fully agree with sanseri, but we are from the generation that grew up with Pelikans as our school pens

 

 

 

absolutely!

 

 

[bemon]

Ah. As they say, nothing like a free lunch. Of course, I agree, and wouldn't mind getting something like you did.

Yes, I know that it's a much loved pen. I definitely find it the best looking too. I'll try and get hold of one and see how I feel about writing with it. I haven't used a tapering pen in years, but now that I look back, I know instinctively that I never took to the design. Who knows things may be different this time around

The sweet spot is also an issue. I am using a Platinum F nib and it works well for my purposes, which involve a mixed use between FP friendly paper and regular A4 sheets. So, I am not sure if the Lamy EF will be a good idea. Apparently, it needs tuning and like you said the sweet spot is limited.

Are you also suggesting that if one likes writing with fine and extra-fine nibs then getting a Japanese nib is likely better, because they seem to have mastered it?

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. But, now it makes sense. Still, I would want to get a new one and use it for a long time.

You got it, and it the Falcon I got heavily discounted is even red which is right up my alley! If you're anything like the rest of us you'll probably eventually aquire both pens anyway. If you can't find a store then there might be a pen meet in your city where there's a near 100% chance someone will be happy to let you take an L2K for a spin- they are pretty much everywhere. Actually out of my EDC which is a Pilot Vanishing Point, L2K and GVFC Classic the Lamy has been the only one ever to have been noticed and commented on by someone. He wasn't even a pen person he just said "Hey, I know that pen- one of my friends is into pens and has one."

 

I really don't have enough experience with fine nibs to comment on who's mastered it. I've got an incredibly limited supply of fine nibbed pens, most of which are western. I think in my opinion a fine Japanese nib puts down a tidier line than a western fine. But I'm sure there's someone here who's collection leans toward fine who would be happy to comment. I'm actually still thinking about sending my medium nibbed Pro Gear down to Greg Minusken to get it re tipped to put down a broader line.