Cheap Vs $$$$$ Worth The Investment?

[DiveDr]

So, new to this forum but not new to fountain pens, avid user since the 1970s and a collector since the 90s. That having been said does the price of a pen dictate the quality of the overall writing experience? In my experience, yes and no. When we pay $1000 + for a pen, shouldn't it write great right out of the box? What about a $500 pen? $100, $50, where do we draw the line (no pun intended, this is a pen forum) and what should our expectations be?

 

Most of my collector colleagues accept pens may need to be "tweaked" out of the box to provide the best experience. The conversations go something like this "...yeah, but you know you can smooth that scratchiness out with some micromesh in a few seconds..." or "...if you align the tines and floss the nib it will write great..." I have heard it all and said it all too but, really, why? I can adjust and smooth a nib to get a pen to behave exactly the way I want it to but why should we have to do this? If we go to a store and buy a shirt knowing we have a 16" neck, why should we have to select anything other than a 16" collar for a perfect fit? We shouldn't and overall we don't because these measurements are generally standardized.

 

Why then should we purchase a fountain pen not knowing the writing characteristics out of the box will be acceptable and within a reasonably defined performance envelope for the given nib width with the recommended ink? I have hundreds of pens in my collection and the only standard I can rely on is that all the pens will vary tremendously in their performance. Consistent performance for different copies of the same model within a very expensive brand can be variable. Why is this? I have no good answer.

 

Funny thing, the best writing pen I have is a 1945 Parker Duofold that I restored myself and the second best is a spoon feed 1925 Waterman. Third place is a relatively modern 2000 Omas Paragon Solid Sterling and Platinum fine nib which also wrote great out of the box but at that price point, if it didn't, one word, why? None of these pens really needed nib work to write great. Now, all of my Auroras needed serious work to get them reasonable except the Jubileum and Giuseppe Verde which were great out of the box. Being that each of these came at a price point of over $1000, well, one would expect that. Then again my MB Edgar Allan Poe wrote like (bleep) out of the box, dry, scratchy and skipping as did my 75th Diamond Anniversary MB 149 Le Grand which also leaked. Neither was cheap!

 

With a little work (okay maybe with more like 45 min to an hour of work) I can make a $4 Jinhao write as nice as a high end pen. In fact, nothing is more fun than doing "blind taste tests" with aficionados comparing a "raw" Aurora or MB, etc. to a tuned Jinhao or Crocodile MB knock off. The results are generally amusing as most chose the worked low end pens as the best writers over the raw, untuned, high end high dollar alternatives. Why do we swallow this?

 

There can be no answer, other than, as a community, we are willing to accept this. So is this post completely off or is there some truth in here? If there is truth here, what should we do about this? If this post is way off please reign me in but I don't think we are getting the overall bang for the buck we deserve!

 

 

[praxim]

Hello DiveDr, welcome to FPN. Have you, by any chance, done a search on this sort of question on FPN?

[DiveDr]

Actually, On twig, yes I did. I was specifically looking for commentary on high end pens and did quite a few searches here and on the net in general but did not come up with anything germane. Would really like to hear about others experiences especially with the "pricey jewels", have quite a few of them but really not seeing the value as compared to lower priced offerings which write just as well with the same amount of tweaking necessary to achieve functional equivalency, would love to hear your thoughts!

[Nerdyhistorian]

Here is topic where your point is already being discussed;

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/342085-are-premium-fountain-pens-any-good-to-write-with/

[praxim]

... did not come up with anything germane. ... not seeing the value as compared to lower priced offerings which write just as well with the same amount of tweaking necessary to achieve functional equivalency,..

So, what do you consider germane, that was missing from material you read?

 

What elements do you consider comprise function, whereby there is equivalence? Is that a universal definition?

 

The rest has been discussed. Although you have done your research, I will repeat my own thoughts if you desire.

 

cheers

P.

[DiveDr]

So, what do you consider germane, that was missing from material you read?

 

What elements do you consider comprise function, whereby there is equivalence? Is that a universal definition?

 

The rest has been discussed. Although you have done your research, I will repeat my own thoughts if you desire.

 

cheers

P.

Germane, well, my OP was more along the lines of what do we support with the revenue pen manufacturers garner from our decisions and why should a $1000 pen require adjustment out of the box to write the way is is supposed to. That was not something readily evident as the mainstay of the referenced post, no, I did not perceive that as foundational there. That was where I was going with this because, quite frankly, I don't see any more big dollar pen purchases in my future, they are just not worth the money. The only pen that actually came out of the box writing exactly the way I expected is my Edison Pens Menlo which Brian Grey personally tuned before shipping, it is perfect and was not terribly expensive all things considered.

 

On the subject of function, I will clarify by saying I was not using this word in the mathematical sense but more the action or purpose for which the pen is suited or used for, functional equivalency, in the above context, taken to mean how well does the pen write under the same set of controlled circumstances. Given the same ink, stationary and similar environmental conditions of pressure, humidity, temperature, and other relative variables, how well (or poorly) does one pen perform compared to another. Are these universal definitions? Of course not as these are all subjective assessments relative to the user's fine motor control, writing style, expectation and perception.

 

No need to repeat but would love to know what you think about giving feedback to the $$$ manufacturers about what we expect and deserve for our hard earned $$$! I have an Aurora Primavera that I have not worked on with a fine nib. It writes like junk and I want it that way for illustrative purposes. There are quite a few FP lunatics in my field and we have done the "blinded" write with these three pens and pick the best. Invariably that pen is not picked. So the question is, should we as a group, lobby the manufacturers to give the people in the niche market the quality products they deserve and if so how?

 

Best regards to all!

[Honeybadgers]

Set the lamy 2000 as a benchmark. North of that, you're on diminishing returns.

 

I think the peak of "get what you pay for" stops there. There are still innovations beyond that like the pilot 823's huge nib and glorious vac filler, but that's no "better quality" than the 2000. The 2000 pairs a gold nib with peerless build quality and a piston filler. North of that (around $150) you're just not getting anything that you can't find elsewhere for cheaper.

 

If you want a bouncy gold nib, 3776 or pilot 74/92 soft fine/FM/M. If you want a big pen, conklin all american or TWSBI VAC700R. Pocket Vac filler? TWSBI vac mini.

 

No, I'm never going to get rid of my $1000 visconti or mont blanc 149. But I'll never tell you they were worth what they cost.

[praxim]

OK. My experience with "expensive" pens does not concur with yours. I put expensive in quotation marks because each person has their own standard on that. No new pen has shown a problem for me so I have never had cause to chase value in cheap pens to see whether they might substitute. There are many threads on and around this topic, with many people offering the same experience as myself as well as others saying they consider only cheap pens to be worth the money to them.

 

Regarding equivalence, there are many factors which go into purchases, which render value to the buyer. Expecting it to write is one. Expecting it to show build quality, comfort and aesthetic value to the buyer are others. Again, cheap pens have offered no such value to me that I might also test their writing capability. However, the fact that 80% of my pens fall into one or other class of vintage has kept my average entry price comfortable even though one or two of those were priced at "modern expensive".

 

Manufacturers get my dollars or they do not. Lobbying done. Crusading avoided.

 

Post script with regard to Honeybadgers' interim post: there is no point of diminishing returns except as defined by the individual. Value delivered by price varies within brands, across brands, from new to second hand to vintage, by person. A dollar amount or single pen reference as a universal standard is without meaning. In my view.

[Tseg]

I've had to tweak most of my pen nibs to get to my liking. Most of my tweaked high-end pens write much more enjoyably than my tweaked low end pens. My Sailor King of Pen and Namiki Urushi No. 20 are always inked. I have a pricey ST Dupont Olympio XL that I bought used... no nib adjustment but multiple ultrasonic cleanings to stop it from skipping... the nib is amazing, the pen is beautiful, but the large step to the section and sharp ridge between section and nib prevent me from using it regularly... I just don't like the ergonomics. I also don't use so much a pricey Pelikan M120 and Lamy 2000, but both of them are relegated mostly to pen binder storage due to feel in hand (ergonomics) and not nib performance.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Tseg

[pajaro]

All the pens I like best were perfect for me out of the box. The ones that weren't good are not used. Some I just returned.

[max dog]

Dive Dr. You can't forget the Ooh La La factor that drive us humans.

When it comes to watches I am perfectly happy with my swiss made Swatch, but some of my watch aficionados friends prefer more expensive Breitlings, Omegas and Rolexes. My Swatch I am sure is every bit as good for thousands less, but lacks the Ooh La La.

 

My Lamy 2000 sits in my pen case most of the time these days, while my MB 146 sterling solitaire I use every single day. It writes great, love the heft, love everything about it. It has the Ooh La La for me. So I guess for myself the latter pen is better value than the former which sits in the pen case unused.

 

Edited to add: Less expensive pens can be just as problematic as more expensive pens out of the box, and in my experience my more expensive pens have been good writers out of the box, more often than the less expensive ones. If one can't tolerate tweaking fountain pens, then maybe a roller ball or ballpoint are more suitable as fountain pens are just more finicky by nature. Maybe that is why the masses went with ballpoints and dropped the fountain pens decades ago.

Edited January 27, 2019 by max dog

[flipper_gv]

No, as writing instruments, expensive pens aren't worth it. But, I still buy them and love them.

[peroride]

Since I'm new to FPs, I've paid a few grand to learn a $2 lesson.

 

I'm glad I did, the journey is fun if not a bit painful.

 

I'm into direct experience and try as best to research beforehand and learn about other experiences in like FPN, reddit, YouTube.

 

Funny I just heard this podcast: The question of worth and some of their discussions jives with the posts here and that other Premium FPs good to write with thread

 

All of the pens I've gotten write out of the box which I consider lucky but my current understanding matches the sub $200 diminishing returns writing experience.

 

I'm trying to chase the nibs.

 

Expense like value is relative but here are some surprises I found:

 

• Ink/Paper matters: I was ragging on Pilot Kakuno EF in Pilot Iroshizuku Yu-Yake but now it writes terrific with diluted Noodler's 54th Massachusetts with a writing experience that almost equals 20X the price of my Sailor 21K EF.
• Vendor source and/or vintage matters: Newly acquired vintage 1950's Sheaffer Snorkel from Greg Minuskin writes like a dream. Or maybe they all do; testing pending ebay restored version from another seller.
• Gets better with time: My Lamy 2000 EF had a 'sweet spot' that detracted from the initial writing experience but now writes like a dream because I've learned to use the tool better.
• False positives: My precious (most expensive) grail-y Aurora 88 Saturno (M) wrote so well out of the box in its Aurora Black and was so purdy that it casted a spell on me to buy another Aurora 88 (F) to use as a more frequent workhorse. But I don't have any more premium pens to compare with. The Aurora inhouse M was right up there with the Pilot 823 F inhouse.
• Test Apples with Apples: I 'like' my Sailor 21K Zoom and EF but hard to really 'get' the Sailor love which I'll reserve for a special nib someday. Maybe Sailor M is the bees knees but I have not tested it yet.
• Chinese take out: Yummy. My better half found some no name Wing Sung lookalike kinda looks like a thinner Jinhao 51A but not like the current stock i see on EBay that I think would satisfy any blind Parker 51 taste test writing experience. Wow so luscious writing even though it cold starts, smells meltly plastic funny and has a rotational sweet spot. I left it at work for quick notes.
• Pilot come fly with me: I'm a Pilot fan. Everything thus far has written so well, really can just fly home with these pens. The Custom 823 F is my best writer in this brand. Does anyone have a 845 or #30 in the Custom Urushi that beats it? Maybe the urushi oils alter ink viscosity and magically outperform 823? Or is bigger better/size matters?
• Greenhorns need more experience: wow all our nibs (wife's pens included) seem fine and write well: Aurora/Pilot/Pineider Quill > Sailor > Lamy > Jowo/Bock/TWSBI

 

My sample size is too small so if there are ppl willing to send me their premium pens, I'd be happy to add to the testing data pool

 

My take home is I enjoy my pens with all their ways of expression.

 

Truthfully I'd rather settle for a few best writers and find more valuable DiveDr ability to actually tune a nib.

 

Skill beats tool for me, but I learns from da skool of hard knocks. Someday when I'm brave enough I will floss :-)

 

So I don't think some manufacturers care as long as there are buyers.

 

Or maybe they just go out of business for lack of buyers?

 

This buyer is more aware.

 

PS Modern Montblanc nibs we tried had a less optimal writing experience, but they are pretty. Again maybe nib type, ink and paper mattered

Edited January 27, 2019 by peroride

[Bo Bo Olson]

IMO, mail causes the tines to be misaligned. If bought at the B&M first such a thing would be caught....and the Wholesale box is bigger so not thrown around as much as a ill made display case that we have gotten from robots acting like various football/fussball playing mail throwers.....they don't carry any more, just throw into a truck or out on to a steered beltway.

 

Goulet(sp) wraps his goods so it can be dropped from a plane with out a parachute. No one else does that. And as said, those are display boxes the fountain pens are shipped in, not scientifically designed and tested mail boxes.

A long time ago back when mail was better handled....like 40-50 years ago, a University packed a package and put in a analog scale apparatus to measure package stress. It arrived broke.

 

One would think in the Digital world such tests would have been done......if they have been done it is hidden. Bombs, yes.....but nothing about rough handled mail.

[A Smug Dill]

When we pay $1000 + for a pen, shouldn't it write great right out of the box? What about a $500 pen? $100, $50,

A new pen in factory condition, which was marketed and sold as a writing instrument, 'should' write competently, and can be used to reliably makes marks on the page in the intended shapes with ink. Write 'well', let alone write 'great', is too subjective to even be meaningful in discourse. Spending $1000 on a pen because that is the asking or agreed price carries no promise that the performance characteristics will be to that individual's liking, and meet his/her expectations outside of any product specifications published by the manufacturer.

 

where do we draw the line (no pun intended, this is a pen forum) and what should our expectations be?

For a new item, what the product's technical specifications or 'data sheet' states, and that the item is merchantable quality, is not defective in its design or manufacture, and does not fail or break prematurely through normal usage, irrespective of the subjective user experience and level of satisfaction.

 

Why then should we purchase a fountain pen not knowing the writing characteristics out of the box will be acceptable and within a reasonably defined performance envelope for the given nib width with the recommended ink?

Platinum, for one, publishes objective line width measurements for its nib width grades in controlled/test conditions. However, I strongly disagree that smooth-versus-'feedbacky', 'dry'-versus-'wet', and so on 'should' be part of the product's specification or what the manufacturer promises to deliver, any more than manufacturers of electric drills and drill bits 'should' promise a particular user experience when you use the products on a particular plank of wood, sheet of metal, or a particular wall; the holes produced should be the right size (assuming the user does not allow the drill to wobble with his/her technique), the drill bits should not snap or wear out prematurely, and the motor in the drill should not overheat or abruptly fail under 'normal' usage conditions, but that's about it.

 

Why do we swallow this?

 

There can be no answer, other than, as a community, we are willing to accept this.

If the inherent consumer risk is unacceptable to you personally, then you always have the prerogative to refrain from buying.

 

If this post is way off please reign me in but I don't think we are getting the overall bang for the buck we deserve!

We don't 'deserve' anything other than what was promised by the manufacturer and/or retailer, and what consumer law in the local jurisdiction says the buyer is entitled to get.

 

So the question is, should we as a group, lobby the manufacturers to give the people in the niche market the quality products they deserve and if so how?

You lobby primarily by how and with whom you choose to spend your money, and from whom you withhold or withdraw your custom.

 

The market does not promise to give every prospective buyer (be it of $5 pens or $500 pens) satisfaction by way of making a product made available to deliver every desired user experience/outcome. If at $500 there isn't a product out there that satisfies the requirements and expectations of an individual buyer who is prepared to spend that amount, then it's up to that person to choose to go without satisfaction and consequently the industry to miss out on that potential revenue.

[TSherbs]

Return what you don't like and ask for your money back.

 

That's what a consumer can do when dissatisfied.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Flagships have to be the best a company can make, in they are and were compared to the other companies flagships. Flagships are status brand flags. There was a Lincoln, or a Caddie or the Chrysler Imperial. Something to bring folks into the second tier pens, where more money per unit was made.

 

Then you have to go era..............a once 'flagship' Pelikan 400/500 or a Geha 760...don't match the signature pen of a 149...did match a 146 or some of the 2xx's....but they were working pens.............which a 149 never was.....too big and clunky. Such owners had a secretary who did the writing.

 

A flagship P-51 or a Snorkel had levels of bling, especially the Snorkel...they had great balance.

They were the more expensive pens. Flag ship pens always are, status is status....and must be bought.

 

As a child, those were Adult pens, and I'd get one when I got a full time job...............but by then Bic arrived.

(Just looked up roller ball pens....and some are real status hogs at well over $300 for a fancy Pilot G-2.........been thirty years since I owned the Parker....one of the first........... :crybaby:There I was not all that impressed, and didn't go back to fountain pens. Free ball points was free.

 

My problem was I was a One Man, One Pen, and it was a un-engraved sterling silver P-75....had I another perhaps I'd returned to fountain pens in time to buy all the cheap fountain pens back in WWW. days.

It had always been too valuable to take out of the house, so I made no complaints when my wife locked them...had the MP/BP too, up in her Jewelry box prison for some decades.

It wasn't just that the pen had high status, but it was 'steal it' silver. Something even ball point users would have stolen.

 

Yes, I do know all about pen collectors , ever since 1958, they collected my fountain pen and Jotter every year until the shoot out of a rifle Bic came...........couldn't afford either the Jotter refill nor the cartridges....was a working man's son.

 

We did have the family Snorkel.... We were not a Wearever family.

The Sheaffer and Parker school pens went....oddly it took forever for a pen collector to collect what may have been my last pen, a Venus. Folks are magpies...so low they'd steal a Venus. The Wearever lasted quite a while too.

Even thieves worry about status of pens.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Bo Bo Olson

[sirgilbert357]

A new pen in factory condition, which was marketed and sold as a writing instrument, 'should' write competently, and can be used to reliably makes marks on the page in the intended shapes with ink. Write 'well', let alone write 'great', is too subjective to even be meaningful in discourse. Spending $1000 on a pen because that is the asking or agreed price carries no promise that the performance characteristics will be to that individual's liking, and meet his/her expectations outside of any product specifications published by the manufacturer.

 

 

For a new item, what the product's technical specifications or 'data sheet' states, and that the item is merchantable quality, is not defective in its design or manufacture, and does not fail or break prematurely through normal usage, irrespective of the subjective user experience and level of satisfaction.

 

 

Platinum, for one, publishes objective line width measurements for its nib width grades in controlled/test conditions. However, I strongly disagree that smooth-versus-'feedbacky', 'dry'-versus-'wet', and so on 'should' be part of the product's specification or what the manufacturer promises to deliver, any more than manufacturers of electric drills and drill bits 'should' promise a particular user experience when you use the products on a particular plank of wood, sheet of metal, or a particular wall; the holes produced should be the right size (assuming the user does not allow the drill to wobble with his/her technique), the drill bits should not snap or wear out prematurely, and the motor in the drill should not overheat or abruptly fail under 'normal' usage conditions, but that's about it.

 

 

If the inherent consumer risk is unacceptable to you personally, then you always have the prerogative to refrain from buying.

 

 

We don't 'deserve' anything other than what was promised by the manufacturer and/or retailer, and what consumer law in the local jurisdiction says the buyer is entitled to get.

 

 

You lobby primarily by how and with whom you choose to spend your money, and from whom you withhold or withdraw your custom.

 

The market does not promise to give every prospective buyer (be it of $5 pens or $500 pens) satisfaction by way of making a product made available to deliver every desired user experience/outcome. If at $500 there isn't a product out there that satisfies the requirements and expectations of an individual buyer who is prepared to spend that amount, then it's up to that person to choose to go without satisfaction and consequently the industry to miss out on that potential revenue.

 

 

An excellent post, and I agree 100%.

[TSherbs]

 

 

 

Platinum, for one, publishes objective line width measurements for its nib width grades in controlled/test conditions.

Does this exist in English anywhere?

[A Smug Dill]

Does this exist in English anywhere?

I do not know the answer to that, and I have no cause to scour the entire Internet for it, sorry. All I can tell you is that Platinum Japan does not appear to have translated that page into English and published it on its web site. Sometimes you can find English pages unlinked from its English language site by prepending e or e_ to the resource name in the URL of the matching Japanese page, but not in this case.

 

Platinum's official distributor in the USA, Luxury Brands of America, may be better able to answer your question if you're really interested.