"pushing" vintage pens

[Keith with a capital K]

Kurt...it's good to see you checked back in!

 

Krone makes all LE's look bad.

 

[John]

This thread makes me feel very old. I can't imagine being intimidated by a fountain pen as I have been using them since I was seven years old. I can see the argument for cartridge pens. They are convenient and easy but how hard is it to fill a converter or a lever filler? That said I wouldn't advise a novice to buy a Snorkel. In fact I'm not sure who I would advise to get one. That pen, while ingenious really isn't a good piece of engineering design.

[Keith with a capital K]

John,

 

I think the Sheaffer Snorkel is a brilliant piece of design although how the guys at Sheaffer ever came up with it cause me to speculate what they were smoking on their breaks.

 

It's a simple to use and clean filling pen, it will outwrite many pens with much larger capacities, and is extremely well made.

 

The biggest issue I find is that people are often baffled by the way the pen fills and that is usually remedied by giving them clear printed instructions or a first hand demonstration.

[KCat]

A fountain pen lays the ink on the page rather than having it scraped off a ball. That alone is worth the price of admission.

 

 

Kurt H

i could be wrong but I read Rob's comment as really referring to the standard tipped pens available at places like Office Depot. Not specifically modern vs. vintage. Certainly many of us know that a modern italic pen or stub (both available as stock nibs in some pens) exist and can be just as wonderful an experience as a vintage nib.

 

I do think that just taking the effort out of writing as you say, kurt - even with Phileas nail or the like, can be a wonderful writing experience. I bought a Phileas for my neighbour - she loves pens but had not used an FP since childhood. She will take the pen out and just doodle with it. just loves the feel of the flow of ink across paper.

 

it is in fact, this feeling exactly that made my "only FP I'll ever need" (the Phileas I bought in 1996) become the first of many.

 

why are people afraid of non-cartridge pens? Well, I've seen them afraid of cartridge pens even. I think there are any number of reasons that go far too much into what differentiates one human being from another. It's sort of like my daughter learned to drive in an automatic transmission vehicle and the thought of even attempting to drive a stick was intimidating. And she's a bright young woman who will tackle a lot of things without help. Driving a stick isn't one of them.

 

I told my neighbour to pick up any of my pens and doodle with them the first time she saw them "Oh, no. I Might damage it." Most of my pens would take some effort to damage them. Perhaps some of the fear is a holdover from old cheap school FPs that were easily sprung or had floppy and weak levers (I've got a couple of those!)

 

Most of my converts are older than I am. I'm 40. Most of them remember at some point in their life using or at least being introduced to FPs in a controlled environment. So I don't think age has a lot to do with the unease people have. actually, being older might contribute to it. Certainly my MIL had no desire to use an FP because her memories of them were that they were scratchy, messy, and just all-around unpleasant to use. But she and my FIL lived pretty frugally their entire lives so she probably never got to experience a decent pen - even if for $2 vs. 50c.

[KCat]

Do you mean to say that when you see a Toledo, it does nothing to you?

a bit of thread drift here - though the thread has been pretty comprehensive anyway...

 

is a Toledo an LE? I mean - I think there are LE Toledos but isn't there a Toledo that is part of the regular Pelikan line-up? If I were to buy an overlay - this would be the one.

 

but... even so. I really was going so far as to say *any* pen that cost over $300. LE or otherwise. Again - not because of looks or the "jewelry" factor. But because of my personal problem with spending big bucks on an unnecessary item.

 

I grew up in a "comfortable" financial situation. Never needed anything that my parents couldn't provide. But I was frugal from a young age so it's part of my personality. Then I was dirt poor for the duration of my first marriage. I won't give all the examples of how I cut corners so I could feed my kid and keep a roof over her head. That has stuck with me and as I said - I don't think I could *use* an expensive pen often enough to justify the cost. Certainly not a pen that cost over $1000.

 

that isn't the same as saying I don't admire some of these pens. Especially the Pelikan LEs.

[Stylo]

And she's a bright young woman who will tackle a lot of things without help. Driving a stick isn't one of them.

Ahhh, today's youth ... I have learned how to drive on a manual transmission car, biked to school going over bone jarring cobble stone, and started using FPs early in elementary school. When I get old enough that youngsters won't know any better I will claim I walked to school barefoot, used dipping pens, bound my own books, and made my own shoes

[Stylo]

But because of my personal problem with spending big bucks on an unnecessary item.

That is terrible! And it is sad too, at least for me. I can't think of any other money costing hobby I have right now, yet I also have to struggle with the thought of spending hundreds on pens. When I was a grad student, I put together a decent stereo sytem and thought that when one day I start making a real living, I'll buy myself a nice high-end system. Now I can do that with just one paycheck, but I can't even envision doing it since that grad school system is already a lot nicer than what many people have. How can I justify buying another pen when I already have ten (8 fully functional). The sense of responsability that comes with growing age is terrible

 

I think the only solution is to set a fixed budget for things that are completely unecessary but that provide you a little bit of joy. The trick is not to specify any category, so that anything goes, even a gazillionth pen.

[John]

Keith,

 

I guess it depends on what you class as good engineering. I think it's interesting to compare a Snork with a tip dip. The performance is much the same but the tip dip is vastly easier to manufacture and repair. I guess it's like comparing a Panther tank with a Sherman.

 

My 2c anyway

 

John

 

 

Kat,

 

I'm not sure the stick shift analogy is fair. There really is a level of skill required to drive a stick shift. I'm not sure there is a whole lot to learn in figuring out how to fill and write with a fountain pen.

 

John

[John]

Stylo,

 

We did use dip pens at my primary school in Yorkshire in the early 60s. And, yes, some of the streets were cobbled.

 

Ay up!

 

John

[KCat]

Kat,

 

I'm not sure the stick shift analogy is fair. There really is a level of skill required to drive a stick shift. I'm not sure there is a whole lot to learn in figuring out how to fill and write with a fountain pen.

 

John

ahh cr**

 

i just wrote a nice long post about why the analogy is valid.

 

in short - it's about the intimidation level, not the actual skill required.

 

There's a man in my life who has an IQ well above normal, can do systems engineering like no one I know, and given a new woodworking tool will go full bore without a moment's hesitation.

 

But put a CD player in his hand and he becomes extremely aggitated and intimidated.

 

How many people will complain about not being able to program their VCR? That's my job in our house. That's cookbook stuff that requires no skill at all.

 

am I making sense? overstating my point again?

[KCat]

I think the only solution is to set a fixed budget for things that are completely unecessary but that provide you a little bit of joy. The trick is not to specify any category, so that anything goes, even a gazillionth pen.

Our approach is to sort of reward ourselves when we feel we've done well with the home business or whatever.

 

I think - that you do have to have things in life that are "unnecessary" and that you can do so without spending much money. Fishing is something we love to do. Doesn't cost much and it really is a good emotional reset. Which makes it necessary in my mind. Likewise, if you get some joy out of a new pen (within reason) and your budget is there, then there's nothing wrong with that.

 

unless you're me.

[Stylo]

Stylo,

 

We did use dip pens at my primary school in Yorkshire in the early 60s. And, yes, some of the streets were cobbled.

My first sentence, that is the parts about learning to drive with a manual tranny car, the cobble stones, etc., are all true The second sentence, the one about walking barefoot, is what I will make up for youngsters who think going back just ten years in the past is almost like going to the stone age. Apparently, given my comment about dip pens, I should include myself in that group

[Guest Denis Richard]

My first sentence, that is the parts about learning to drive with a manual tranny car, the cobble stones, etc., are all true The second sentence, the one about walking barefoot, is what I will make up for youngsters who think going back just ten years in the past is almost like going to the stone age. Apparently, given my comment about dip pens, I should include myself in that group

Reminds me a childhood friend who asked his grand-mother, when he was 5-6yo, if in her times, schoolbook covers were made of animal furr...

[Free Citizen]

I can see the argument for cartridge pens. They are convenient and easy but how hard is it to fill a converter or a lever filler? That said I wouldn't advise a novice to buy a Snorkel. In fact I'm not sure who I would advise to get one. That pen, while ingenious really isn't a good piece of engineering design.

Isn't good engineering design? How so?

[John]

Isn't good engineering design? How so?

 

Overcomplicated for what it achieves IMHO

[Free Citizen]

I think - that you do have to have things in life that are "unnecessary" and that you can do so without spending much money. Fishing is something we love to do. Doesn't cost much and it really is a good emotional reset.

Oh, you have no idea how fishing can get out of hand too

[Free Citizen]

Isn't good engineering design? How so?

 

Overcomplicated for what it achieves IMHO

Well, it isn't for me. As long as it doesn't have as many parts as a bicycle it is easy Lego. The plus points for me is that it is environmentally friendly. No tissues nor empty cartridges to add to our choked landfill.

[KCat]

Oh, you have no idea how fishing can get out of hand too

sure do. my ex was obsessive compulsive about hobbies and when he got into fishing briefly he spent hundreds (we were quite poor) on reels, rods, a boat! etc.

 

The way hubby and I fish though - that's another matter. We have our preferred rigs that were probably less than $120 combined. We buy bait, we sit on the jetties off the coast of Galveston or off the Texas City Dike. The most expensive part of that hobby (for us) is the annual re-up on the fishing license.

[Keith with a capital K]

I agree that the Snorkel is a little overdesigned but that the overdesign is intended to make the actual use of the pen pretty simple. After repairing and restoring quite a number of the little beasts I can say that they aren't really hard to work on.

 

I too agree that your basic touchdown filler or tip dip is just about as good a pen and is marginally easier to maintain.

 

( I can disassemble and rebuild a clean snorkel in under 20 minutes)

[Stylo]

There are many limited edition pens that are ugly but there are also those which are not. .... I can understand you using Krone as an example but I think you are tarring a whole range of pens with too wide a brush.

I think my statement has been misunderstood. I didn't claim LEs were necessarily ugly or not made for actual writing. I was merely trying to explain why and how the ugly and bad writing ones sell.