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"pushing" vintage pens


KCat

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There was a thread on another board that I stayed away from but it does make me want to comment

 

Disclaimer: I have vintage and modern pens. I've seen some stunningly beautiful vintage pens that I would love to own if I had just tons of cash to toss around. I am not disparaging vintage pens at all.

 

I have seen disparaging comments re: modern pens often but have felt that for the most part they were said in humor. what I worry about is more subtle than that.

 

A new person comes into a pen forum asking for advice on a nice pen to buy: there are standard suggestions for moderns (depending on price range) and then there is sometimes (often? usually?) an overwhelming chorus of "Don't bother with modern, buy vintage." I know that I was intimidated by vintage early on. Pictures of gorgeous pens with odd little levers and buttons and twist this a little, feel the click, pull it out, stick the tube in the ink, push it in, twist it back... (snorkel) and such made the whole world of vintage pens just look much too complex for this newbie. I'd had cartridge FPs since I was 12 but that was it. in addition, I worried that i might damage something that I couldn't easily replace.

 

I've also introduced several people to FPs and in all cases they took to cartridge fillers though usually with some trepidation - and anything more complex, including modern piston-fillers like Pelikans, they found very intimidating.

 

I do think that all opinions and advice should be welcome in these circumstances and that the new FP buyer will decide based on their comfort level for the most part. But I do worry that at least some people new to the hobby will shy away from modern pens because of the sometimes overwhelming conviction that vintage is "the only way to go" and that for the most part, modern pens are of poor quality compared to vintage.

 

well - i'm just expressing an opinion and a concern and don't wish to be disruptive or anything.

 

as a side note - in most of the instances when I've given someone a c/c pen - it never occurred to me that they wouldn't know how to use it! That's my bias. I know better now but...

KCat
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Venerable are letters, infinitely brave, forlorn, and lost. V. Woolf, Jacob's Room

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Guest Denis Richard

You make much sense, Kcat.

 

Even though I am a recent vintage maniac (I evolve by phases :lol:), I would never recommend a vintage to someone who wants to discover fountain pens.

 

I am not the last to argue on the qualities of vintage pens, but it does not make the modern pens less than they are. They usually are well built reliable, writing instruments. Buying a vintage requires a minimum of efforts if you don't want to end up with a dog. Chances are also, if you don't want to spend much, that you will have to do a minimal reconditioning.

 

You are right that many people are also intimidated by FPs, and do not know how to use them. Vintage just make a potential convert uneasy feelings even worse. I do remember my first converter, and how it seemed much more complex to use than the cartridges.

 

I do enjoy both vintage and modern pens. My bias is that I can have a first tier vintage pen for the price of a third tier modern. If the brands would have reasonable pricing, I would have as much moderns as I have vintages. I just can't afford most of them.

 

I also think that the manufacturing was more careful than today, but it does not mean that I think moderns are not good quality pens. They are good enough to last for decades if taken care of.

 

I don't think that debate actually has any influence on the people who come to get an advice on a first pen. It's a bit as if I never made coffee before and ask for advice. If someone tells me of roasting the beans, grinding them, boil water on the stove and use an italian upside-down expresso maker, I'll listen politely, may be interested in the process, but I'll make my first coffee with an easy dripper, with coffee bought form the supermarket.

 

Denis.

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I think you make some very good points, KCat.

 

I own one vintage pen. I originally bought new, modern pens because I was intimidated by purchasing an old pen. I still am. Oh, yeah, not knowing where to obtain a vintage pen was also a factor.

 

One of the things that intimidated me about vintage pens was how would I know how the pen's condition was. Would it cause me troubles? The thing that still intimidates me is the question of value. How do I know what a fair price is? How do I know when I'm getting a good deal or when I'd be paying too much? And then, contrary to the meme that modern pens might be of lesser quality then vintage models, I was also concerned that vintage pens might prove to be more delicate or finicky. These factors were reasons I didn't even think of vintage pens for a while.

 

If I were asked by a friend or colleague about purchasing a first FP, I'd steer them toward a modern pen first. There may be less fear and trepidation with a new pen. The various factors of age and use are not going to be added to the mix. I very much like my vintage Pelikan. (It needs repair, though :( But Rick Propas will be taking care of it once I can get the mailing supplies. :) ) But I also like my modern pens, each for different reasons.

 

I also note that I had simply used black ink cartridges in my then loan FP for a number of years. That was easy and compact without having to "mess" with bottles of ink. (Seems kind of silly to me now. Go figure. :rolleyes: ) Cartridges are also relatively familiar to many people. Changing cartridges isn't much different than changing refills on a BP. At least for some, this might also be less daunting than other methods of getting ink into a pen.

 

Finally, it really seems to come down to the reason why one is interested in acquiring a FP and what one wants out it. A one type fits all approach just doesn't seem particularly appropriate to me. I'm also not sure that strident opinion is necessarily helpful or encouraging to those seeking out a single and/or functional FP or to enter into the FP hobby.

 

Just a few thoughts...

 

Mark C.

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I believe that I am one of the guilty parties...

 

When people ask me what kind of pen to buy and offer a list of moderns I will select the pen I think is the best, offer some modern alternatives, and also suggest that should not ignore vintage pens as they offer great bang for the buck at some very good prices.

 

To find a good vintage pen you just have to deal with a reputable dealer or restorer who knows their stuff, that will price things fairly, and stand behind what they sell.

 

Most self filling pens (lever, button, snorkel, and vac) are all pretty easy to use and after providing quite a number of people with pens over the years I know that once most people discover vintage pens, they're often spoiled for moderns.

 

Vintage pens just seem to have a certain charm that goes along with their nice writing abilities and looks.

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I believe that I am one of the guilty parties...

 

When people ask me what kind of pen to buy and offer a list of moderns I will select the pen I think is the best, offer some modern alternatives, and also suggest that should not ignore vintage pens as they offer great bang for the buck at some very good prices.

No, Keith - I don't think you fit the bill since you do not rule out modern pens. And your answer below shows that you provide a range of possibilities. I think the choices should be as varied as possible for a person new to the hobby and like I said, ultimately they'll choose based on what feels comfortable. I also believe that vintage should be a suggestion actuall.

 

It's the manner in which it is often suggested. It comes down to Kurt's feelings expressed on PT - that there is a sense of "snobbery" in the reactions to modern pens at times. Sort of like the MB vs. everyone else debate. :P

KCat
Save animal lives - support your local animal shelter

My personal blog https://kcdockalscribbling.com

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Venerable are letters, infinitely brave, forlorn, and lost. V. Woolf, Jacob's Room

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Hi, KCat, et al.,

 

I'm not sure whether I'm one of the offenders here or not. I collect nothing but old fountain pens so I really have very little experience with contemporary pens. And, yes, old pens can be VERY pricey, but one can get pens from the 1920's through the 1950's at very reasonable prices that are near or below many contemporary pens.

(snippage)

Anyway, your point is well taken. It doesn't matter much whether the pen is old or new, fancy or plain. It's the writing experience that matters.

 

Take care,

 

Rob Astyk

i've enjoyed all the responses - it's a topic that can be discussed in a pleasant manner as it has been thus far.

 

Rob, it didn't occur to me that someone would have only a vintage (or modern) opinion based on the fact that their experience is limited to one or the other. I guess I assumed that if you're an FP nut, you've tried all kinds. So... there's my bias showing.

 

anyway - i haven't exactly kept a list of folks who have bashed moderns. I do have a short list of MB-haters (Hi Bill!) :rolleyes: it really doesn't offend me personally as much as my concern that someone will jump in to vintage *or* modern waters and base their opinions of FPs solely on that limited experience. And I am drawing a distinction between the suggestions for various pens vs. the adamant claims of vintage or modern superiority.

 

am I making sense - i had to take a med for my gut and now I am a liiiiitle woooozy. :-)

 

all of my vintage pens were *very* inexpensive. Not that I have many but I have a few.

 

Were you able to interact directly with the new collector? I think that can make a difference in a good first experience with an FP.

 

LEs - don't get me started. :-) Even most of the Pelikan LEs I've seen don't appeal to me. My biggest gripe with LEs isn't the elitism or the looks - but the cost! I sometimes have trouble using my most expensive pens (slightly over $100) for daily work because of fear of damaging them. I think I'd never be able to ink an pen that cost more than $300.

 

maybe if I get rich sometime soon (not likely) I'll change my tune on that. :D

 

thanks for the pleasant and enlightening exchanges, folks.

KCat
Save animal lives - support your local animal shelter

My personal blog https://kcdockalscribbling.com

My nature blog https://kcbeachscribbles.com
Venerable are letters, infinitely brave, forlorn, and lost. V. Woolf, Jacob's Room

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I really like that term, "magpie collector". In a lot of ways, that describes me too. I have mostly modern pens, but also have some easygoing vintage pens that are not pretty, but all have spectacular nibs.

 

The advantage for a new collector to try moderns first is that there is usually a warranty that gives them the ability to send the pen back or exchange nibs or whatever, for a certain length of time from the purchase date. That is something that gives a high degree of comfort I think.

 

Although, thinking back not too far, as a newbie I jumped into everything all at once. :blush: Piston fillers, lever fillers, c/c's, modern, vintage and used. But I am not mechanically inclined at all, so repair issues might concern me when purchasing vintage. It takes some time being around the forums to realize that there is lots of support out there for both modern and vintage pen concerns.

Never lie to your dog.

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Hi, KCat,

 

I know what your focus was, but you can't help those of us who have

conciences from feeling a bit guilty. :-)

 

But, the old pens are always better. I collect them so they have to be, right? 8-D

 

Take care,

 

--

Rob Astyk

robastyk@fastmail.fm

Well, I'm the guilt queen, Rob. So now I feel guilty for making you feel guilty.

 

:blink:

 

the pens you have and enjoy are the pens that are better. :)

 

do you have one of those monster pen cases? or is it always an excavation ritual?

 

oops thread drift...

KCat
Save animal lives - support your local animal shelter

My personal blog https://kcdockalscribbling.com

My nature blog https://kcbeachscribbles.com
Venerable are letters, infinitely brave, forlorn, and lost. V. Woolf, Jacob's Room

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I primarily collect vintage---Sheaffer pens and metal Wahl pens & pencils are my recent "focus"---but I have some moderns too (mostly Pelikans and Watermans).

I admit that I am a magpie when it comes to pens, though (just look at my FPN title :))

 

When I gave a friend of mine an Esterbrook a while back, I was surprised at her reluctance to use it---she said she was "scared" to ink up the pen with the ink bottle & instructions I had given her! :blink: I didn't realize that lever-fillers were so intimidating to some non-FP users! I told her that the pen was not as fragile as it looked (it's an Estie, after all) so I hope she inked it up and is using it.

 

If I were recommending a FP to a total "newbie", therefore, I think I would start him or her off with a modern cartridge-filler pen (like a Phileas or a Lamy Safari) or even a piston-filler like a Pelikan. After he/she gets used to the way the fountain pen writes (ie. you don't have to press as hard as you do with a ballpoint---I have to keep reminding my husband about this :lol: ), then I would recommend a vintage one.

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Rob,

You moved all that stuff from the Eastern U.S. to Washington state!??!! :huh:

That must have been a real pain.....Now I can show your post to my husband and tell him: "See, Rob from Bellingham has over 2000 pens, honey! I'm not so bad, am I? " :lol:

 

Please say "hi" to Anna for me.

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I can't speak from experience, but I think what first draws adult newbies to fountain pens is the fact that FPs seem intriguing, unusual, and somewhat mystical writing instrument. The overall novel esthetics of FPs is part of that perception, but it also an attraction by itself.

 

If one accepts the premise above, then the most reasonable choice for a begginer seems to be a very reliable pen that has some visual appeal, but without needing to be spectacular, and that is reasonable priced.

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The pens that will get me railing against them as fast and as hard as "conservative" politicians are the LE's. Partly it's because most are uglier than a stump fence and overpriced and made NEVER to be used. THAT'S insanity! Thousands of dollars for a pen that's supposed to sit in its box and be looked at as if it were a work of art when, in fact, it's just butt ugly (e.g. Krone's John Hancock).

The way LE work is very simple. You make very few of them and the pen instantly becomes a rare commodity. There are usually enough people who are willing to pay a premium for any type of product when they know very few others will be able to make the claim of owning that same product. The "it is one of a kind" aspect often trumps everything else, and that is how you end up with all sorts of ugly things that are very highly priced, with some people willing to pay those high prices for the exclusive ownership.

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Guest Denis Richard
There are usually enough people who are willing to pay a premium for any type of product when they know very few others will be able to make the claim of owning that same product.  The "it is one of a kind" aspect often trumps everything else, and that is how you end up with all sorts of ugly things that are very highly priced, with some people willing to pay those high prices for the exclusive ownership.

Very true, Stylo. That reminds me of a thread I started on PT. I was asking if there was any hope to bring back the FP in some schools, and have more people using them.

 

Well, one of the answers was form a person who did not want the FP to be more popular. That person stated that she was using fountain pens to be different compared to the other "average" people.

 

Can you say snobbery ? :lol:

 

LE is just an extreme example of that.

 

Denis.

 

Disclaimer : I understand that one might like a particular LE, not because it is an LE per se, and not because of a snobbish impulse.

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edited - didn't mean to quote the whole thing!

 

Hi, KCat,

 

was planning to move in with Anna at the time. The price was very good for such a case. She was not amused, not even when I tried to convince her that it would become a kind of "gateway" to the living room just as St. Louis has its arch. Sometimes, there's just no way to please that woman.  :D

 

Getting back closer and with a nod to Maja, it amazes me too that people, including those who are getting into this hobby, are so afraid of their pens. They are wonderful things that are meant to be used.  Except the LE's that is. :lol:

 

Take care,

 

Rob Astyk

 

i think, if I had as many pens as you have, Rob, my hubby would have voted for the "gateway" *if* it meant it could house all of my pens forever and ever. Rather than just as an addition to other pen cases.

 

But fortunately - it's not an issue. my 20-pen case holds all but a few less-used/loved samples in my "collection." :P

 

enjoyable reading! And nice view of the mega-collector's world.

 

kcat - who best get off-line again before those t-storms hit..again.

KCat
Save animal lives - support your local animal shelter

My personal blog https://kcdockalscribbling.com

My nature blog https://kcbeachscribbles.com
Venerable are letters, infinitely brave, forlorn, and lost. V. Woolf, Jacob's Room

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She's quite fond of her Cross Verve now that a problem with ink leakage around the nib is resolved.

Hi Rob,

 

What was that problem with the ink leakage around the nib. Does it leak during use or storage? How was it fixed? I have a Parker Insignia that leaks around the nib in storage. I am a bit reluctant to return it to the vendor for repair fearing that it would be handled by an amateur. It has happen before.

T-H Lim

Life is short, so make the best of it while we still have it.

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LEs - don't get me started. :-) Even most of the Pelikan LEs I've seen don't appeal to me. My biggest gripe with LEs isn't the elitism or the looks - but the cost! I sometimes have trouble using my most expensive pens (slightly over $100) for daily work because of fear of damaging them. I think I'd never be able to ink an pen that cost more than $300.

 

maybe if I get rich sometime soon (not likely) I'll change my tune on that. :D

Do you mean to say that when you see a Toledo, it does nothing to you? I do not know if my two Duofold Centennials are LEs. One Marble Red and the other a Mosaic Black. Both have a limited run so I like to think they are LEs. I don't even flinch about using them. I have both of them inked always. The same goes for my Sheaffer Balance Millennium Edition. I think what Rob is referring to are not LEs but jewellery. There is a difference. And worst of all is that there are those that contain no jewels and yet is passed off as one, based on their selling price. I shake my head in disbelieve when a Pentracer laments that a certain model is very much desired but can't have it because the Hemingway is still being paid off. So, like Rob I detest luxury makers with false pretence. It is vulgar and obscene.

T-H Lim

Life is short, so make the best of it while we still have it.

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Hi, Stylo,

 

I think that you're right. Several people have asked about where they can find fountain pens after they see something I've written with mine. The casual inquiry like that usually gets a referral from me to Office Max or some similar store that carries a few modern pens.

 

I'm actually of two minds about that, though. First and on the positive side, it makes the pens and ink accessible and "normal" for the new user. But, second and on the down-side, it means that the person is going to get a pen that will not change his or her handwriting much from the ballpoint the person is now using. I just hope that the reduced strain and pressure in writing helps seduce the person into our fellowship of the fountain pen.

 

Take care,

 

Rob Astyk

Now wait just a minute there. There are alot of vintage pens that do not have that miraculous ability to change a person's handwriting. Look at the nail Waterman's, Parker 51 and a slew of non-namers not to mention alot of the Esterbrook nibs. I believe that a fountain pen whether a flexy noodle or a nail 51 does change your writing. A fountain pen lays the ink on the page rather than having it scraped off a ball. That alone is worth the price of admission.

 

 

Kurt H

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And, of course, old pens are vastly superior to modern ones in all ways.

Why just look at those Lifetime and 100 Year warranttes that are still

honored!

Rob,

 

You have extraordinary powers of observation but how can you believe old pens is always superior to modern ones? I have seen some old pens on display and it does not convince me how equivalent models of the past are superior in every way to say, the Duofolds or Balance of today. The finish of these modern versions are impeccable. The same goes for a Pelikan Souveran. When I hold it in my hand, I ask myself, how can this be inferior to anything that came before it? It only makes sense to think that quality goods continues to improve with each successive design. More advance material and closer tolerance production techniques employed. So, there really is no basis to say, "Go for vintage, do not even bother with moderns". If the majority of us did that, then all pen makers would wind up. And do not forget, there are also a lot of old pens that were not vintage. Those poorly made pens with inferior material were unusable. Whereas, the moderns are normally good performers.

T-H Lim

Life is short, so make the best of it while we still have it.

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Stylo is right in that fountain pens use has become a novelty because nowadays it is not often seen being used. So, there is a degree of fascination about them. But when they start using them, they are hooked and most newbies go on to be collectors. Moderns at first and vintage later on. And Kurt is also right in that different nibs do transform your writing. I never knew beautiful writing until I stumbled upon stubs. And when I use italic nibs, I find myself writing in a way I never wrote before and it was highly legible albeit slower. Great for filling in forms and writing on Envelopes. In fact, just the other week, I submitted an application form for my daughter to be registered for Sunday Class. I used a no. 4 roundhand dip pen to fill in that form. When the person receiving it saw the form, it immediately became a conversation piece. James Pickering like to play a trick by using his italic hand to write cheques. Some of the recipients of his cheques don't even cash it. They frame it instead.

T-H Lim

Life is short, so make the best of it while we still have it.

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The pens that will get me railing against them as fast and as hard as "conservative" politicians are the LE's. Partly it's because most are uglier than a stump fence and overpriced and made NEVER to be used. THAT'S insanity! Thousands of dollars for a pen that's supposed to sit in its box and be looked at as if it were a work of art when, in fact, it's just butt ugly (e.g. Krone's John Hancock).

The way LE work is very simple. You make very few of them and the pen instantly becomes a rare commodity. There are usually enough people who are willing to pay a premium for any type of product when they know very few others will be able to make the claim of owning that same product. The "it is one of a kind" aspect often trumps everything else, and that is how you end up with all sorts of ugly things that are very highly priced, with some people willing to pay those high prices for the exclusive ownership.

There are many limited edition pens that are ugly but there are also those which are not. Some of these even harken back to vintage pens. Granted there are hideous pens but then again there are Franklin mint plates and then there's Rosenthal. I have owned 3 limited edition pens and have written with all of them & found them to be rather good writers. Sometimes a company actually puts a little more quality into the LE pens.

I can understand you using Krone as an example but I think you are tarring a whole range of pens with too wide a brush.

 

Kurt h

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