The end of Dunn

[simp]

Hi,

 

I recently got a nice Dunn, so I'm trying to get more info about this brand.

 

I already collected all information I could find in the Dunn page of my site (sorry, it's written in italian: I'm not good enough to write it in English).

 

But I have a question about the company end because the two sources I got (http://www.vintagepens.com/Dunn.shtml and http://www.pensandwatches.com/) are reporting two conflicting date (1924 and 1927) and two different reasons.

 

So if someone know for what reason the company was close I'd really appreciate the help.Any direction on where to find a good source of information (book or whatever) on this brand will be also gladly accepted.

 

Thank you

Simone

[antoniosz]

According to a New York telephone directory of 1925 Dunn still existed on 170 Broadway.

Check https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=20253 for evidence. So 1924 does not seem to be consistent with this information. David Nashimura (vintagepens.com) is an extremely knowledgeable person and I hope he will chime in with more relevant information. John Appleseed can also check the Times archive for bankruptcy information.

Edited February 10, 2008 by antoniosz

[Vintagepens]

I'm on the road at the moment, so this is a pretty quick and dirty response. The Dunn bankruptcy was, as I recall, actually two bankruptcies, the first attempting to reorganize the company and keep it afloat. I believe 1924 was the date of the first bankruptcy filing, with it still not well understood how much production took place between then and the final failure.

 

The story that I've not been able to document is that Dunn went under as a result of prolonged labor action -- stoppages if not a full strike. When I was living in Manhattan, I was intended to consult with some labor historians (NYU has a major labor history library as well) to confirm, but that's still a pending project over 16 years later.

[Dave Johannsen]

I'm on the road at the moment, so this is a pretty quick and dirty response. The Dunn bankruptcy was, as I recall, actually two bankruptcies, the first attempting to reorganize the company and keep it afloat. I believe 1924 was the date of the first bankruptcy filing, with it still not well understood how much production took place between then and the final failure.

 

This is the story that I've always heard as well. I believe that that the pens marked "Dunn Dreadnaught" and that come with the two-piece caps for filling, date from the second instance of the company.

 

 

Dave

 

[dlmoak]

I used to have quite a nice collection of Dunns and did a little research on the company (couldn't do Dunn and MT at the same time . Dunn himself was dead prior to the first bankruptcy as I recall. The parts and machines were auctioned off to some investors who wanted to keep the company going. I don't remember if I verified whether or not a labor dispute caused the first bancruptcy, but that is the story that sticks in my mind. I believe that Dunn had patents on his pens for years before ever going into production. I sold the collection sometime ago, so this history is a job for someone else...

[simp]

I'm on the road at the moment, so this is a pretty quick and dirty response. The Dunn bankruptcy was, as I recall, actually two bankruptcies, the first attempting to reorganize the company and keep it afloat. I believe 1924 was the date of the first bankruptcy filing, with it still not well understood how much production took place between then and the final failure.

 

The story that I've not been able to document is that Dunn went under as a result of prolonged labor action -- stoppages if not a full strike. When I was living in Manhattan, I was intended to consult with some labor historians (NYU has a major labor history library as well) to confirm, but that's still a pending project over 16 years later.

 

Hi,

thank you for the new informations you provided. I updated my site with it, leaving a reference to this thread. I'm living in Florence and getting info from here is quite difficult, I must resort to search the internet and ask here... Unfortunately Dunn is not a famous brand and all the book I have have a very little information about it. But I like its pen because they have the same charging mechanism of the Omas Lucens 15 years before, and I think they deserve some credit.

 

So thank you again, and if sometime you will complete the project just tell us...

 

Simone

[Johnny Appleseed]

I should have some updated info for you when I get a chance to digest it all and write it up. The basic outline above is correct, with some additional info and sordid details.

 

Sorry David - I couldn't find anything about the labor issues as well.

 

John

[pen2paper]

 

QUOTE(Vintagepens @ Feb 11 2008, 06:13 AM) 510348[/snapback]

I'm on the road at the moment, so this is a pretty quick and dirty response. The Dunn bankruptcy was, as I recall, actually two bankruptcies, the first attempting to reorganize the company and keep it afloat. I believe 1924 was the date of the first bankruptcy filing, with it still not well understood how much production took place between then and the final failure.

 

The story that I've not been able to document is that Dunn went under as a result of prolonged labor action -- stoppages if not a full strike. When I was living in Manhattan, I was intended to consult with some labor historians (NYU has a major labor history library as well) to confirm, but that's still a pending project over 16 years later.

 

Hi,

thank you for the new informations you provided. I updated my site with it, leaving a reference to this thread. I'm living in Florence and getting info from here is quite difficult, I must resort to search the internet and ask here... Unfortunately Dunn is not a famous brand and all the book I have have a very little information about it. But I like its pen because they have the same charging mechanism of the Omas Lucens 15 years before, and I think they deserve some credit.

 

So thank you again, and if sometime you will complete the project just tell us...

 

Simone

 

Thanks for maintaining your Dunn links Simone.

Sorry for the necro-post of all time. Is it even possible to drag all of these pen historians back to clarify and confirm what might have been an important fleeting overlooked moment in pen, and pen materials history? The wording I'm finding in old discussions, suggests that the possibility of transparent Redmanol has not been documented?

 

Simone's link to Dunn Pen Advertisement:

http://www.fountainpen.it/File:1922-11-Dunn-Bakelite.jpg

1922 is significant. Charles Dunn (NY) had patented, (one cited is Nov 23, 1920), manufactured a fairly high quality pen by 1921. (before his untimely death). One Dunn Pen barrel material was described as "transparent barrel to show ink supply at a glance", which was dark cherry phenolic. In modern times a blanket reference to all phenolic's is "Bakelite". But, transparent cherry amber "Bakelite" pre-1922 stands out as incorrect. Pre-22 Transparent cherry amber phenolic is patented "Redmanol". The ad, I think cautiously worded because of pending litigation rumblings, does not state the phenolic's company/material name. So the question with multiple business upheavals, death, ligation, mergers, is: was that transparent dark red Dunn barrel "Redmanol"?

Feel free to correct any misinformation in my inquiry.

 

Does anyone have a Dunn with cherry red amber transparent barrel? Possible to photograph in good light to see if it compares to "Redmanol" labeled pipe stems? The cherry amber color is consistent, and old stems look great after 100 years. So far I've not seen the browning deterioration of later Catalin (Bakelite) colors. It was seeing the Pre-1922 Transparent phenolic pipe stems that captured my attention. Bakelite phenolic of this date was brown/black/opaque - said to be too brittle for pens. Corrected below by Parker - Bakelite Transparent red Bakelite - Thanks. Still wondering if Redmanol's unique qualities ever used in a pen or prototype during that brief period.

Edited June 5, 2015 by pen2paper

[Vintagepens]

It's not just in recent times that "Bakelite" was used as the name for transparent dark red phenolic plastic. From the early 'teens, Parker made pens with barrels of this material, advertised as Bakelite and imprinted as Bakelite.

 

If we're going to bring this thread back to life, note that the most up to date info is now available here: http://www.vintagepens.com/Dunn.shtml

[pen2paper]

Thanks David! First site I checked was AAP under Bakelite.

If I had not seen a what appears to be cherry amber transparent "Redmanol" color on a Dunn, (also noting, but not showing, there were rare silver overlay pens), I would have doubted.

 

I know You know plastics manufacture processes, curing issues. Having briefly read some Karpen industry, their Kiln and Chemical interests, (Redmanol), and possibly L.V.'s patent-partner in Remanol. Then L.V Redman becoming VP/chief research chemist of Bakelite, L.V.'s odorless/no flavor/non brittle Redmanol becomes "Bakelite-Redmanol" (retaining the Redmanol font), then "Redmanol" disappears. I think L.V. retained patent control. Perhaps Redmanol production costs were too high, or other compositions were preferable? One thing I've seen is that Redmanol as pipe stem material was/is highly regarded for its durability, no odor, or flavor, which can't be said of other phenolic's. No browning from deterioration. Why I'm curious to see if threads of a Dunn-Pen transparent red phenolic remain pristine with no browning - intrigues me.

The only other possible Redmanol object are unmarked cherry amber beads, and one bracelet that appears to have sections of Redmanol, and sections of intermixed colors which would be Catalin.

 

I did look for other manufacturers on pen sites. I did not see Parker transparent red phenolic marked Bakelite. I'll search on.

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I saw your noted back-log, very much appreciated.

 

found this, after months of hunting: (Thank you Barrie for including the Parker info!)

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/classifieds/item/32418-parker-lucky-curve-bakelite-transparent-pen-c1918-reduced/'%20title='Parker%20Lucky%20Curve%20Bakelite%20Transparent%20Pen%20C1918%20-%20Reduced

Ebonite cap. Now armed with Parker Bakelite, lots of info.

 

The Bakelite marked Parker is transparent.. still wonder why the transparent it isn't available in abundance, unless it was difficult to manufacture.

 

Redman, perhaps similar to Esterbrook, found some formula, or process step (Karpen Kilns) that enhanced durability, with no odor/flavor. But, Bakelite's earlier patent (seen on this Parker pen) prevailed.

Edited June 4, 2015 by pen2paper

[Vintagepens]

Transparent Bakelite was used by a number of American pen manufacturers, not just Parker and Dunn. I have never seen an example with any browning or any other form of deterioration.

 

Why do you mention the threads as an area more vulnerable to deterioration?

Edited June 7, 2015 by Vintagepens

[pen2paper]

Only because in other non-pen Bakelite/Catalin objects, when I've seen browning, it's at an edge or cut area.

In other objects, (besides the Parker example I saw online yesterday), I don't see transparency until garish candy colored Prystal. Observing other objects, browning is more readily seen in opaque green, and then dark opaque burgundy red where it's sort of a rusty color.

 

I'm not at all studied in tobacciana. Simply since viewing this early, very transparent Redmanol dark red repeatedly in pipe stems, I've yet to see any that appears degraded in the least. Very possible it's out there. But, I had to wonder if all who laud Redmanol's odor/taste free quality, (at 100 years old), are wrong? That, and the date, WWI-era to '22 with such clarity. Finally, I'd always heard Bakelite was brittle, problematic for pens. So when I saw modern day comments on Redmanol being highly desirable, and for all the reasons Bakelite was not, I wanted to know if it existed beyond pipe stems, perhaps in a few examples of pens (protoypes) or other objects. Since "Bakelite" was labeled as such, (required?) could pre-'22 non-marked transparent red be Redmanol? Such a beautiful material for such a brief period.

 

Put another way, if Brian Gray had Redmanol, my red Edison would not be acrylic. This may be more of a lament ; ) that this rich transparent red is impossible. Like hoping for Saphiret glass. It is no more.

Thanks David, I appreciate that you gave thought and direction to my inquiry.