"saturation" Of Inks

[Hohn]

Hi everyone!

 

I've noticed that several ink commenters refer to some colors as "saturated" more so than other colors. The term as so used seems to be abused, so I'm hoping to clear it up somewhat.

 

First, saturation in the chemical sense should not be used to describe an ink because we can't know how much solvent/solute the solution contains without some titration experiments that don't add much value.

 

Therefore, color saturation is what I believe many are referring to. But saturation properly defined is the degree to which a color deviates from a perfect neutral along the white-grey-black line. By definition, every black ink is not saturated at all. Using saturation to describe the difference between a "watery" black like Perle Noire vs drier black like Aurora Black is inappropriate. The difference between them is one of opacity rather than color saturation; as black inks they have zero color saturation.

 

The closer an ink is to a primary color, the more "saturated" it is. The farther away from a primary color (whether in the black direction -- a shade-- or in the white direction-- a tint), the less saturated the ink's color is.

 

Consider a standard color picker like this one:

The most saturated location on the square is the upper-right corner. As the color goes towards the left, it becomes more white. As it goes down, it becomes more black. Thus, the least saturated locations are the other 3 corners.

 

The strip near the square contains primary hues. Any of them could represent the upper right hand corner of the square.

 

Please, if you use the word "saturated," mean that the color is close to the upper right hand corner-- close to a primary hue.

 

For your consideration.

 

H

Edited August 18, 2011 by Hohn

[stuartk]

Hi everyone!

 

I've noticed that several ink commenters refer to some colors as "saturated" more so than other colors. The term has so used seems to be abused, so I'm hoping to clear it up somewhat.

 

This is similar to the way that the word bandwidth is often misused to describe network (and some other types) connections and their capacity. Various people have tried to discourage this misuse (I tried to fight against it in the mid '90s, but finally gave up), and people kept on using it incorrectly.

 

In this case, "saturated" means roughly "looks like it has lots of dye," as opposed to some inks that have been diluted over the years to increase profit margins. (Parker and Sheaffer, for example.) It's a very subjective thing, and quite imprecise, but it seems to be on its way to being common usage in the pen fancier's community.

[lsmith42]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(color_theory)

 

A useful primer...

[WanderingAuthor]

Hi everyone!

 

I've noticed that several ink commenters refer to some colors as "saturated" more so than other colors. The term has so used seems to be abused, so I'm hoping to clear it up somewhat.

 

First, saturation in the chemical sense should not be used to describe an ink because we can't know how much solvent/solute the solution contains without some titration experiments that don't add much value.

 

Therefore, color saturation is what I believe many are referring to. But saturation properly defined is the degree to which a color deviates from a perfect neutral along the white-grey-black line. By definition, every black ink is not saturated at all. Using saturation to describe the difference between a "watery" black like Perle Noire vs drier black like Aurora Black is inappropriate. The difference between them is one of opacity rather than color saturation; as black inks they have zero color saturation.

 

The closer an ink is to a primary color, the more "saturated" it is. The farther away from a primary color (whether in the black direction -- a shade-- or in the white direction-- a tint), the less saturated the ink's color is.

 

Consider a standard color picker like this one:

The most saturated location on the square is the upper-right corner. As the color goes towards the left, it becomes more white. As it goes down, it becomes more black. Thus, the least saturated locations are the other 3 corners.

 

The strip near the square contains primary hues. Any of them could represent the upper right hand corner of the square.

 

Please, if you use the word "saturated," mean that the color is close to the upper right hand corner-- close to a primary hue.

 

For your consideration.

 

H

 

As I understand how the term is used, it means the ink has a lot of "stuff" (dye, colouring agent, whatever term you like) in it; a more saturated ink is considered to be one that is more likely to gum up your pen if it dries in there. The definition you propose is of fairly limited use; after all, you're going to want to see a colour swatch anyway in most cases. But the way the word is used now, that is helpful. It lets us know what inks (might) tend to cause problems in certain situations.

[dizzypen]

Misuse or new use?

 

While I see your point, "saturation" to mean dye concentration is a standard use within the fountain pen community.

 

When I say a fountain ink has high saturation, fountain pen users read that as a fountain pen ink has high dye concentration.

 

It works to get your point across even if it is a misuse of the word. You'll find this occurs quite regularly in English. Our language is ever-evolving, and the meanings of words are ever-changing.

Edited August 17, 2011 by dizzypen

[txinsk]

Ok, you know a technical definition for color saturation, yet that like so many definitions works inside your field of study. The fact is that words often carry different meanings. In my field of study of mathematics you could walk into 4 different professors offices to talk about fields and have 4 different, sometimes radically different, conversations and a farmer eavesdropping on all four would think no one knew what they were talking about.

 

So learn this now, as saturation gets discussed in fountain pen inks it often refers to the level of shading. Generally, the opposite of a saturated ink is a highly shaded ink. At which point this amounts to how much dye is there and how does it spread out when writing. This actually makes the usage of saturation closer to the chemical definition, although it is not identical.

 

Figure out what the word means by the context it is used in, not by what some certain definition says it ought to mean. A definition without a common context is likely to be a bad definition.

 

Rick

[Possum Hill]

The term "saturated" has sometimes been used on this board to suggest that some particular (evil) ink has so much stuff in it that various components will precipitate out in pens. Thanks, Hohn, for the explanation.

[Possum Hill]

Ok, you know a technical definition for color saturation, yet that like so many definitions works inside your field of study. The fact is that words often carry different meanings. In my field of study of mathematics you could walk into 4 different professors offices to talk about fields and have 4 different, sometimes radically different, conversations and a farmer eavesdropping on all four would think no one knew what they were talking about.

 

So learn this now, as saturation gets discussed in fountain pen inks it often refers to the level of shading. Generally, the opposite of a saturated ink is a highly shaded ink. At which point this amounts to how much dye is there and how does it spread out when writing. This actually makes the usage of saturation closer to the chemical definition, although it is not identical.

 

Figure out what the word means by the context it is used in, not by what some certain definition says it ought to mean. A definition without a common context is likely to be a bad definition.

 

Rick

There's an interesting example -- apparently when some people use the word farmer they mean "simple uneducated peasant".

[pompa]

There's an interesting example -- apparently when some people use the word farmer they mean "simple uneducated peasant".

 

Hehe, I have t-shirt that says "Hello farmers" and it's definitely in a (lovingly) derogatory manner. It's from the supporter club of a football (soccer!) team and is to be used at away games in small towns

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch: I've gotten a lot of flak for merely living in the area code of Stockholm and I like to meet that prejudice with a bit of teasing :roflmho:

[sombrueil]

...

In my field of study of mathematics you could walk into 4 different professors offices to talk about fields and have 4 different, sometimes radically different, conversations and a farmer eavesdropping on all four would think no one knew what they were talking about.

 

...

 

Figure out what the word means by the context it is used in, not by what some certain definition says it ought to mean. A definition without a common context is likely to be a bad definition.

 

Rick

There's an interesting example -- apparently when some people use the word farmer they mean "simple uneducated peasant".

 

gotta say, plus one for that response. One of my 'farmer' friends has a PhD in agronomy. What does that make him?

[sombrueil]

The question for me is, not what 'saturation' means in other contexts, but what it means when used by fountain pen ink users.

 

Does 'saturated' mean there is little or no shading visible when used with a broad or flex nib?

Or, does 'saturated' mean there are additives such that the ink must be cleaned from one's pen more conscientiously than with less 'saturated' inks?

 

Or, is there no practical difference between those two definitions?

 

Reason I ask is, I avoid Noodlers inks because some are notoriously difficult in vintage pens, which are all I have. But would that be true of the Nooders inks which are highly shading, like Apache Sunset? Is there a 1:1 correlation between shading inks and well-behaved easy-cleaning inks?

 

Diamine Kelly Green is both highly shading and often difficult. So .... ??

[Hohn]

Hi everyone!

 

I've noticed that several ink commenters refer to some colors as "saturated" more so than other colors. The term has so used seems to be abused, so I'm hoping to clear it up somewhat.

 

First, saturation in the chemical sense should not be used to describe an ink because we can't know how much solvent/solute the solution contains without some titration experiments that don't add much value.

 

Therefore, color saturation is what I believe many are referring to. But saturation properly defined is the degree to which a color deviates from a perfect neutral along the white-grey-black line. By definition, every black ink is not saturated at all. Using saturation to describe the difference between a "watery" black like Perle Noire vs drier black like Aurora Black is inappropriate. The difference between them is one of opacity rather than color saturation; as black inks they have zero color saturation.

 

The closer an ink is to a primary color, the more "saturated" it is. The farther away from a primary color (whether in the black direction -- a shade-- or in the white direction-- a tint), the less saturated the ink's color is.

 

Consider a standard color picker like this one:

The most saturated location on the square is the upper-right corner. As the color goes towards the left, it becomes more white. As it goes down, it becomes more black. Thus, the least saturated locations are the other 3 corners.

 

The strip near the square contains primary hues. Any of them could represent the upper right hand corner of the square.

 

Please, if you use the word "saturated," mean that the color is close to the upper right hand corner-- close to a primary hue.

 

For your consideration.

 

H

 

 

As I understand how the term is used, it means the ink has a lot of "stuff" (dye, colouring agent, whatever term you like) in it; a more saturated ink is considered to be one that is more likely to gum up your pen if it dries in there. The definition you propose is of fairly limited use; after all, you're going to want to see a colour swatch anyway in most cases. But the way the word is used now, that is helpful. It lets us know what inks (might) tend to cause problems in certain situations.

 

Interesting point, but I see a flaw in your reasoning. Your definition presupposes that the behavior of the pure dye is known, and that simply observing the ink's color and flow and such can provide meaningful insight into the actual concentration of the solution. Dyes vary in potency and behavior, even within kind and color. Think of it as dye vs pigment, but one increment more detailed.

 

Any ink that dries will leave behind the solute from the solution. The more concentrated the solution is, the greater the quantity of solute left behind. Not all solutes are same. The quantity of stuff left behind and the KIND of stuff left behind are rather different, wouldn't you agree?

 

I can't see how simply writing with an ink can possibly provide valid insight into propensity to plug your pen. We may *think* we can divine such knowledge, but I know of no sound reasoning that would lead you to that conclusion. There are too many other factors that aren't being controlled for.

 

JMO

[Northwoods]

It's an uphill battle. People will use the word as they understand it, and assume everyone knows what they mean. Or maybe they don't care if others don't understand.

 

Me, I have this atypical notion that the person doing the writing has an obligation to the reader to be as clear and unambiguous as possible, especially when an ambiguity is pointed out. But I'm odd that way.

 

Since I can't assume what the reader will expect when they read "saturated", if I need to use the term I'll always qualify it as either "chemically saturated" or "highly saturated color" to avoid confusion.

 

I never assume that there is an absolute relationship between the two. An ink can be highly color saturated and still not chemically saturated with dye. A lot depends on the chemistry of solute and solvent. So when I read "saturated" and it sounds like the writer means in the chemical sense, I pretty much take that with a lot of skepticism, since I have no way of knowing how they reached that conclusion.

[dizzypen]

The question for me is, not what 'saturation' means in other contexts, but what it means when used by fountain pen ink users.

 

Does 'saturated' mean there is little or no shading visible when used with a broad or flex nib?

Or, does 'saturated' mean there are additives such that the ink must be cleaned from one's pen more conscientiously than with less 'saturated' inks?

 

Or, is there no practical difference between those two definitions?

 

"Saturation" in the FP ink context almost always refers to the dye content. With that dye content can also come high maintenance status since that dye can have a tendency to collect if a pen is not used regularly or flushed intermittently.

 

A highly saturated ink is not necessarily an opaque ink, so the assumed shading correlation is an interesting one. It is not universally true that a "highly saturated" ink will not shade. It is true that they tend not to shade as well. But I tend to think shading depends in part on something else in the chemical makeup of the ink that affects the way that ink spreads out.

[Hohn]

Ok, you know a technical definition for color saturation, yet that like so many definitions works inside your field of study. The fact is that words often carry different meanings. In my field of study of mathematics you could walk into 4 different professors offices to talk about fields and have 4 different, sometimes radically different, conversations and a farmer eavesdropping on all four would think no one knew what they were talking about.

 

So learn this now, as saturation gets discussed in fountain pen inks it often refers to the level of shading. Generally, the opposite of a saturated ink is a highly shaded ink. At which point this amounts to how much dye is there and how does it spread out when writing. This actually makes the usage of saturation closer to the chemical definition, although it is not identical.

 

Figure out what the word means by the context it is used in, not by what some certain definition says it ought to mean. A definition without a common context is likely to be a bad definition.

 

Rick

 

In the context of color, saturation has a precise empirical meaning. It is a property of color just as hardness is a property of steel. Saturation is an empirically measurable quantity, not some kind of black art. As such, context should mean very little. We should not take a term (saturation) with a precise meaning in a defined context (color perception) and start making up new meanings for it-- especially when precise language already exists that can describe the properties of ink we care about.

 

"Saturation" as you define it is really an amalgam of several different (and often interrelated) properties: opacity, saturation, reflectivity, base hue, etc. When you say "shading" you really refer to variations in perceived color. If the color perception varies, then it follows that any property of ink that affects color perception can be a source of "shading." Highly saturated inks can be highly shading (Iroshizuju Momiji) and low saturated inks often have little to no shading (Perle Noire).

 

This is, in abbreviated form, my argument that considering a "saturated" ink and a "shading" ink as two ends of a spectrum is improper and leads to confusion when it need not.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Hohn

[txinsk]

Ok, you know a technical definition for color saturation, yet that like so many definitions works inside your field of study. The fact is that words often carry different meanings. In my field of study of mathematics you could walk into 4 different professors offices to talk about fields and have 4 different, sometimes radically different, conversations and a farmer eavesdropping on all four would think no one knew what they were talking about.

 

So learn this now, as saturation gets discussed in fountain pen inks it often refers to the level of shading. Generally, the opposite of a saturated ink is a highly shaded ink. At which point this amounts to how much dye is there and how does it spread out when writing. This actually makes the usage of saturation closer to the chemical definition, although it is not identical.

 

Figure out what the word means by the context it is used in, not by what some certain definition says it ought to mean. A definition without a common context is likely to be a bad definition.

 

Rick

There's an interesting example -- apparently when some people use the word farmer they mean "simple uneducated peasant".

 

Excellent job of missing the point. The point being that the word field used outside of a university hall can have an incredible difference. And frankly, I work with enough of them today to know what most of their responses would be, as I put it, some tongue in cheek, some serious. And nothing said uneducated that is your projection onto my writing, my point is that the semantic domain is absolutely different for for such a field. Helps to respond to what I write, not what you wanted me to write.

 

Rick

[txinsk]

Ok, you know a technical definition for color saturation, yet that like so many definitions works inside your field of study. The fact is that words often carry different meanings. In my field of study of mathematics you could walk into 4 different professors offices to talk about fields and have 4 different, sometimes radically different, conversations and a farmer eavesdropping on all four would think no one knew what they were talking about.

 

So learn this now, as saturation gets discussed in fountain pen inks it often refers to the level of shading. Generally, the opposite of a saturated ink is a highly shaded ink. At which point this amounts to how much dye is there and how does it spread out when writing. This actually makes the usage of saturation closer to the chemical definition, although it is not identical.

 

Figure out what the word means by the context it is used in, not by what some certain definition says it ought to mean. A definition without a common context is likely to be a bad definition.

 

Rick

 

In the context of color, saturation has a precise empirical meaning. It is a property of color just as hardness is a property of steel. Saturation is an empirically measurable quantity, not some kind of black art. As such, context should mean very little. We should not take a term (saturation) with a precise meaning in a defined context (color perception) and start making up new meanings for it-- especially when precise language already exists that can describe the properties of ink we care about.

 

"Saturation" as you define it is really an amalgam of several different (and often interrelated) properties: opacity, saturation, reflectivity, base hue, etc. When you say "shading" you really refer to variations in perceived color. If the color perception varies, then it follows that any property of ink that affects color perception can be a source of "shading." Highly saturated inks can be highly shading (Iroshizuju Momiji) and low saturated inks often have little to no shading (Perle Noire).

 

This is, in abbreviated form, my argument that considering a "saturated" ink and a "shading" ink as two ends of a spectrum is improper and leads to confusion when it need not.

 

 

Again you seem to miss the point. This is not about a technical definition from some physics or engineering perspective. This is about a definition that is applied in a narrow field of its own, namely fountain pen writing. That is might be an "amalgam of several different properties" is immaterial in the execution of writing. Here it is a workable and agreed definition with a supplied opposite. It should only create a headache for the ink manufacturer who has to balance all these meanings in the creation of new ink formulae. That this definition does not match your expectation from another context does not mean that how the word saturation is used here needs to change.

 

Rick

 

 

[Northwoods]

The trouble starts when someone thinks that intense color = chemically saturated. That's not necessarily the case, but it's nearly universal assumption based on how people use the term. We do ourselves a disservice when we do that. We can turn people away from perfectly good inks if they're afraid that a bold ink will gum up their pens. Conversely, an ink that isn't color saturated can be chemically saturated. You can probably dilute Blue Ghost to the point of saturation and never be able to tell from just looking.

 

Just because there's a prevalence of usage doesn't mean it's correct.

[The Good Captain]

I thought that 'saturated' or 'saturation' referred to the gauge of how wet a shirt pocket felt after a Pelikan leak.

Silly me.

[The Good Captain]

Sorry about the bit of humour earlier - just in case things were getting a bit deep.