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Waverley Triumph Nibs


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35 replies to this topic

#1 AD71

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:48

Hello !
I really love Sheaffer's Triumph nibs, such as the Modern Crest's long 18k gold ones.
I have read on Richard Binder's site that some of Sheaffer's Triumph nibs were Waverley upturned. I would like to know what models were fitted with these waverley nibs. I would prefer long and smooth ones. If they were made of gold, it would be perfect.
Thank you for your help and sorry for my mistakes : I am French !

Edited by AD71, 21 December 2010 - 09:48.


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#2 Dr Lopez

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 12:02

hello and welcome to the FPN,

I have four Sheaffer's vintage models with Triumph nibs and all of them are Waverley style. According to Binder's site: "Sheaffer discovered the effect of an upturned tip in the 1930s (but could not use the trademarked Waverley name). The Sheaffer design’s success on Lifetime Balance pens led to the upturned tip of the conical “Triumph” point, introduced in 1942.". This suggests to me that ALL Triumph nibs were made this way.

Edited by Dr Lopez, 21 December 2010 - 12:02.

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#3 Ernst Bitterman

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 16:58

All the triumphs I've seen have had this, although on some of the very late, extra-short ones as appeared on Imperials, some Skripserts, Stylists and Ladys, the up-turn can be very subtle indeed.

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#4 PenHero

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 18:04

Since Sheaffer never called any of their nibs "Waverleys", I'm personally not comfortable calling any of their nibs by that name simply because the tip is upturned. Waverley is not used even as a prior art comment in any of the Sheaffer patents nor in any advertising or catalogs I have seen, moreover, the design patent for the Triumph nib does not mention it, but clearly shows the upturned point:

DESIGN FOR A FOUNTAIN PEN POINT Patent # D130997 Issued Jan 1942

Not sure where the whole Waverley thing got started. It almost sounds like someone found the earlier patent and decided that all upturned point nibs are Waverleys. Seems like the Waverley design may be the earliest patent, but by that logic all cars should be called "Benz's" because Karl Benz is credited with inventing the first gasoline powered car, the Benz Patent Motorwagen, which was patented in 1886.

I don't plan on calling any Sheaffer nibs Waverleys, FWIW. Just makes no sense to me.

Edited by PenHero, 21 December 2010 - 18:07.


#5 AD71

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 18:50

Thank you for your informations.I also read this afternoon the article about Triumph nibs on PenHero.
I knew Sheaffer did not use the word "Waverley" for his upturned nibs, but it seemed to me that this word would express a better way what I meant in this post. It is difficult to me to express such technical things the right way, since I don't know much technical vocabulary about fountain pens... even in French.
Regards.

Edited by AD71, 21 December 2010 - 19:09.


#6 Paddler

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 20:45

Hello !
I really love Sheaffer's Triumph nibs, such as the Modern Crest's long 18k gold ones.
I have read on Richard Binder's site that some of Sheaffer's Triumph nibs were Waverley upturned. I would like to know what models were fitted with these waverley nibs. I would prefer long and smooth ones. If they were made of gold, it would be perfect.
Thank you for your help and sorry for my mistakes : I am French !


I have a Sheaffer "Valiant" with the upturned nib. The nib is an open design and two-toned. The pen is standard size (not a Thin Model) plastic, with gold plated silver (vermeil?) furniture. It has the military style clip. This pen is the finest writer I have ever tried.

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#7 terim

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 21:06

I guess we'll have to call them upturned and stay away from the waverley term, which is going to be hard since I only recently mastered the spelling.

I am finding both the triumph and inlaid nibs on 1960s-70s Sheaffers can have a bit of a lilt, epecially the mediums.

Here's an Imperial III
Posted Image

And an Imperial II
Posted Image

What do you think? Do these qualify? I certainly get enough customers wondering if their nib is bent ....

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#8 Dr Lopez

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 22:38

What do you think? Do these qualify? I certainly get enough customers wondering if their nib is bent ....

TERI


hehehe, this was exactly my impression as a FP noob when I first got my first triumph nib
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#9 PenHero

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 22:39

If you check the nibs on Sheaffer pens from the Triumph period forward, the upturned point is very common, particularly on Inlaid nib pens. Look at the Legacy and Valor for example.

#10 Johnny Appleseed

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 22:43

I think the Waverley thing started when Richard Binder started offering it for a nib grind. I would agree that we should use it only sparingly and cautiously in regard to Sheaffer, as they never did. However, I do understand the appeal of having a name for a feature, just as terms like areometric and Flighter have become names for a broader category than what they were originally intended to be.

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#11 PenHero

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 23:01

If that's the case, it sounds like a marketing name, not a descriptive name. If Richard wants to call a grind a "Waverley" grind, that's ok with me. I just don't like the idea of a term Sheaffer did not use bleeding into the Sheaffer lexicon as if it has specific relevance to the brand.

As to Aerometric and Flighter, I've seen these terms misused to the point of silliness. Aerometric is often used for any squeeze type converter, when in fact its original use was not a converter at all, but an integral Parker squeeze filler with a breather tube. Any real "aerometric" filler would include a breather tube, hence the name. Squeeze converters don't count. As to "flighters", I get the concept of any all stainless steel cap and barrel pen being called a "flighter", Parker or not, but I've seen non-stainless steel pens, such as Sheaffer brushed chrome models being called "Flighters", primarily because they are silver colored, when in fact they are made of chrome plated brass. Definitely not a "flighter". FWIW, there are very few all stainless steel Sheaffer pens. Most of those silver ones are actually brushed chrome.

#12 teej47

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 23:13

What do you think? Do these qualify? I certainly get enough customers wondering if their nib is bent ....

TERI


Yup. Just tell 'em they're curved, not bent (curved being on purpose, bent not so much).

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#13 kirchh

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 02:01

Ah, the "W" word. Here are some links to threads that contain my energetically grumpy admonishments on this topic:

http://www.fountainp...howtopic=104491

http://www.fountainp...ime-vs-waverly/

http://www.fountainp...-an-os-balance/

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#14 PenHero

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:18

What do you think? Do these qualify? I certainly get enough customers wondering if their nib is bent ....

TERI


Yup. Just tell 'em they're curved, not bent (curved being on purpose, bent not so much).

Tim


Tim is exactly right. Sheaffer made no "Waverley" nibs.

If you want to be precise, you can use the names in the Sheaffer repair manual, C8W (palladium silver) or C9W (gold), or you can call them "short Triumphs", which is less precise, but does convey what they are.

Edited by PenHero, 22 December 2010 - 03:22.


#15 PenHero

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:23

Ah, the "W" word. Here are some links to threads that contain my energetically grumpy admonishments on this topic:

http://www.fountainp...howtopic=104491

http://www.fountainp...ime-vs-waverly/

http://www.fountainp...-an-os-balance/

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Grumpy admonishments I completely agree with!

#16 Richard

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:49

The whole Waverley thing got started this time around when I discovered Waverley fountain pens, which were made by the Macniven and Cameron Pen Company. I tracked the name back to its origin, which was the Waverley steel pen (dip nib) invented by Duncan Cameron in 1964. (The name was a tribute to Sir Walter Scott, author of the Waverley Novels.) Since Macniven and Cameron stopped making pens of any sort in the 1960s, its Waverley trademark is legally dead insofar as it applied to pens, so I took the name up and have trademarked it for my own turned-up nibs. Note carefully what I just wrote. The Waverley name and its distinctive corresponding logo are trademarks of RichardsPens.com; the name is not a generic descriptor for just any turned-up nib. To clarify this issue, I have just edited my site's Glossary to reflect the distinction; see turned-up nib and Waverley.

Posted Image

Edited by Richard, 22 December 2010 - 03:50.

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#17 michael_s

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 08:05

Just want to mention that Pilot Japan offers a Waverly (WA or ウェーバリー) nib on its higher-end Custom models. This post here on FPN describes Pilot's version of the upturned nib. Specifically, it's only offered in a medium width, whereas Richard's Waverley appears to be primarily for extra-fine and narrower nibs.

BTW I have no idea whether Pilot Japan uses the "Waverly" or "Waverley" spelling for their WA nib.

A Pilot vendor in Japan has a photo and writing sample of the WA nib on their website.

Anyway to avoid even more confusion, maybe "upturned nib" best describes Sheaffer's nibs...

-Mike

Edited by michael_s, 22 December 2010 - 08:10.


#18 AD71

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:17

I am sorry that using this word aroused "grumpy admonishments" and such a debate on this word... I promise I will never use "Waverley" to describe Sheaffer upturned nibs !!!!
I do understand Richard Binder's rectification since he trademarked it for his own turned-up nibs. In fact, I discovered this word on his website, as I gazed at his Waverley extra-fine nibs. I think the best thing I can do to get a XF Waverley nib is asking him to regrind one of mine.
Regards.

#19 Hugh200au

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 21:09

The whole Waverley thing got started this time around when I discovered Waverley fountain pens, which were made by the Macniven and Cameron Pen Company. I tracked the name back to its origin, which was the Waverley steel pen (dip nib) invented by Duncan Cameron in 1964. (The name was a tribute to Sir Walter Scott, author of the Waverley Novels.) Since Macniven and Cameron stopped making pens of any sort in the 1960s, its Waverley trademark is legally dead insofar as it applied to pens, so I took the name up and have trademarked it for my own turned-up nibs. Note carefully what I just wrote. The Waverley name and its distinctive corresponding logo are trademarks of RichardsPens.com; the name is not a generic descriptor for just any turned-up nib. To clarify this issue, I have just edited my site's Glossary to reflect the distinction; see turned-up nib and Waverley.

Posted Image


The only Waverley nib is that made by Macniven and Cameron Pen Company, end of story. The reuse of expired trademarks is common practice as it gives some legitimacy to a term/use that the "new" user applies it too. In the pen world the two most common would probably be Conway Stewart and Conklin, both trading on heritage that they are in way connected too. I, personally, have strong views on the reuse of trademarks by unrelated businesses as it can gives legitimacy to those that shouldn't or haven't earned it. This having been encountered in my business where I grew a certain style of wool (not widely grown in Aust. at that time but by my family for a considerable period of time) that an opportunist "named", trademarked then wanted me to pay him to use his logo on my wool. The fact that Richard has had to continually insist that he has the only right to the term Waverley is proof this isn't accepted by a lot of people. Richard makes an upturned nib that he chooses to call a Waverley and clearly indicates the history of the name, for that credit is deserved.

Regards
Hugh

#20 AD71

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:01

If my clumsy word - I understand, I agree and have apologized several times for it, especially to Richard Binder himself, haven't I ? - arouses so many reactions, even "energetically grumpy admonishments", I do think that a neophyte as I am has no place on this forum.
Thank you to those who treated me leniently and answered my question about "upturned Sheaffer nibs".
Regards.

Edited by AD71, 23 December 2010 - 09:15.







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