Pelikan 100 Deep Red Barrel

[eckiethump]

Pen I have here fro repair is very deep red barrel almost black unless held to good light, I seem to remember some detail on these red barrelled 100's, but can't remember what it was.

Any help or information would be appreciated.

Green? binde is in excellent condition and came off barrel with no cracks, hairline or splits of any sort

Any photo's I took wouldn't do it justice, unless to a good light it just looks black, and I think I've cleaned ff as much staining as possible, pen may have had india ink in it ??

TIA

Eric

[akiva]

Hi Eric,

There is a red barrel in the Dittmer schreibegerate book. It is on P. 38. It is red with blackish striations. Maybe your pen did get discoloured with indian ink or such like.

[eckiethump]

Hi Akiva,

I don't have that book, also, I only own pretty sketchy literature on Pelikans, but most of the vintage pens I have handled, have had a brown or green hue barrel and viewing window.

Eric

[mr goldfink]

Hi Eric

 

I think you are referring to the barrel as opposed to the binde.

 

The red tinted celluloid 100 barrels often look almost black. It is partly the tint that was used on the ink window and partly the effects of ink exposure over the years. If you cast the pen to the light you will see the tint applied evenly on the barrel from the inside.

 

Hope that helps.

 

MG

[Rick Propas]

Let's see if we can clarify things here.

 

From 1929-mid 1930 Pelikan made the barrel or shaft of their pens from bakelite, which will look deep ruby red when backlit.

 

From mid-late 1930 to late 1938 the barrels were cellulose nitrate, a rather lovely but hideously unstable material. Those barrels can appear as any color from greenish yellow to brown to occasionally red. The way to tell the deep red cellulose nitrate barrels from the bakelite barrels is that the bakelite were one piece, so a strong light will shine through a bakelite section, but not through the hard rubber sections of the cellulose nitrate barrels.

 

From 1938 to 1939 the barrels were cellulose acetate, which shows as green, often darkish green. Occasionally one of these barrels will discolor to yellow.

 

From 1939 to 1944 the barrels were acrylic green.

 

Some of the late cellulose acetate barrels were molded in one piece and the insides of the sections were painted black. Otherwise, unlike Montblanc, Pelikan did not paint the interior of barrels.

 

Confused? Tune in next time when we explain sections.

[mr goldfink]

Let's see if we can clarify things here.

 

From 1929-mid 1930 Pelikan made the barrel or shaft of their pens from bakelite, which will look deep ruby red when backlit.

 

From mid-late 1930 to late 1938 the barrels were cellulose nitrate, a rather lovely but hideously unstable material. Those barrels can appear as any color from greenish yellow to brown to occasionally red. The way to tell the deep red cellulose nitrate barrels from the bakelite barrels is that the bakelite were one piece, so a strong light will shine through a bakelite section, but not through the hard rubber sections of the cellulose nitrate barrels.

 

From 1938 to 1939 the barrels were cellulose acetate, which shows as green, often darkish green. Occasionally one of these barrels will discolor to yellow.

 

From 1939 to 1944 the barrels were acrylic green.

 

Some of the late cellulose acetate barrels were molded in one piece and the insides of the sections were painted black. Otherwise, unlike Montblanc, Pelikan did not paint the interior of barrels.

 

Confused? Tune in next time when we explain sections.

 

All agreed save for the point on the tinting of barrels. I am about as certain as it gets that Pelikan dyed the insides of the barrels of their 100 and 100N pens - often dark green but dark red and even yellow.

Typically, two or more colours can be found running the length of the barrels of most, if not all of these pens. The appearance is to my mind unequivocally that of the application of dye to the inside of the barrel.

My opinion is based on observation of the countless pens that I have disassembled. I remain to be convinced that dyes were not used in the process.

Edited July 25, 2010 by mr goldfink

[penspouse]

Pictures! Pictures! Pictures! Anyone have pictures of what is being discussed? I'd love to be enlightened.

[Rick Propas]

Mr. GF, I'm afraid you are just wrong.

 

For more than a decade I have compared notes with the major collectors and repairers of these pens, I have assembled and disassembled and worked on and analysed literally hundreds of these pens and the coloring you think you are seeing is a result of the reaction between cellulose nitrate and inks.

 

I know I'll not convince you, but I think that others should be aware that your view about painting the inside of Pelikan barrels is yours alone. I know of no one who would agree with you.

 

There is one exception. In Danzig early in the war, they did paint the interior of barrels (in place of bindes) as materials shortages set in, but those pens are quite distinctive as they have thin black barrels with no bindes.

 

To reiterate, no one, but no one, other than you argues that the ink windows of these pens have ever been painted, colored or tinted.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Rick Propas

[mr goldfink]

Rick, you're quite right on one point. I remain to be convinced that dyes were not used as, with respect, if it comes down to observation I have complete confidence in my own. For me, the hard evidence speaks for itself. The only exception I'm aware of is the First Year pen with the bakelite barrel.

[eckiethump]

I think you are referring to the barrel as opposed to the binde.

MG

No it's definetely the barrel I refer to

 

From 1929-mid 1930 Pelikan made the barrel or shaft of their pens from bakelite, which will look deep ruby red when backlit.

 

From mid-late 1930 to late 1938 the barrels were cellulose nitrate, a rather lovely but hideously unstable material. Those barrels can appear as any color from greenish yellow to brown to occasionally red. The way to tell the deep red cellulose nitrate barrels from the bakelite barrels is that the bakelite were one piece, so a strong light will shine through a bakelite section, but not through the hard rubber sections of the cellulose nitrate barrels.

 

Barrel is in one piece and the deep ruby red you allude to. The second paragraph are the barrels I am more familiar with. I don't handle enough of these pens to be fully au fait with their many incarnations, enough though to recognise one as being a bit different.

I own a Dunn pen from 1922ish which I would hazard to say is the same material as the Pelikan barrel. Bakelite has been defined to me, at times quite vehemently, as being solid colours and the material we are talking about here being a phenolic resin, to be translucent ?? Is the term bakelite being applied in a similar vein to the at as ebonite is applied to hard rubber ?

 

Pictures! Pictures! Pictures! Anyone have pictures of what is being discussed? I'd love to be enlightened.

Sorry, but the only way you can see the colour, is held to very strong light, just about blinded myself trying to capture the colour !!!

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/eckiefump/Pelikanred009.jpg

Mr. GF, I'm afraid you are just wrong.

 

For more than a decade I have compared notes with the major collectors and repairers of these pens, I have assembled and disassembled and worked on and analysed literally hundreds of these pens and the coloring you think you are seeing is a result of the reaction between cellulose nitrate and inks.

 

I know I'll not convince you, but I think that others should be aware that your view about painting the inside of Pelikan barrels is yours alone. I know of no one who would agree with you.

 

To reiterate, no one, but no one, other than you argues that the ink windows of these pens have ever been painted, colored or tinted.

I have seen pens that Mr GF has had, that have obviously been painted/stained/dyed on the inside of the barrel as you are discussing. The look of this did not suggest to me, anything other than it was a factory application on a vintage pen. Particularly I remember seeing a lightish green celluloid? barrel with this at the section in particular. Please excuse, if this is not the same subject matter as being discussed.

Eric

 

 

[eckiethump]

Rick, you're quite right on one point. I remain to be convinced that dyes were not used as, with respect, if it comes down to observation I have complete confidence in my own. For me, the hard evidence speaks for itself. The only exception I'm aware of is the First Year pen with the bakelite barrel.

 

I was typing my replies, while you were posting yours !!

Eric

[mr goldfink]

Eric

 

As ever I'm viewing this message on my iPhone but from your photo I would surmise the pen you have is a celluloid 100 as the Bakelite pens have a deep burgundy hue whereas your pen looks brownish on my screen.

 

Rick

 

You know that I have a lot of time for you but on this occasion, as with another we had by way of email (so called green/green 400s are in fact quite different from Seagreen 400s!) you have just got it plain wrong here.

 

First, at least one person, the OP no less (who happens to be a seasoned and well known pen restorer in these parts), has already chipped in sharing my opinion about the use of dye. So, I'm not alone in my opinion.

 

Secondly, before you step up to the plate with didactic and wildly emphatic rebuttals or 'corrections' you first need to be absolutely certain of your facts and, to be quite frank with you, I'm stunned that someone with your experience, who has observed so many Pelikan barrels and whom clearly believes that he has authority to dismiss outright, repeatedly, a correct and valid point made by a fellow FPN'er, has failed to take cognizance of the, well, obvious. Worse still, by taking such a hard line against me on this I'm afraid that you have merely served to expose publicly a gap in your knowledge of the matter in hand.

 

I should be able to post photograhs clearly showing the application of various dyes on both 100s and 100Ns this weekend coming, that is if someone else has not beaten me to it by then!

 

But enough said for now...

 

Regards

 

MG

Edited July 26, 2010 by mr goldfink

[eckiethump]

Eric

 

As ever I'm viewing this message on my iPhone but from your photo I would surmise the pen you have is a celluloid 100 as the Bakelite pens have a deep burgundy hue whereas your pen looks brownish on my screen.

MG

 

Nope, I know the difference between deep burgundy red and brownish, I also know the difference between something that is coloured/painted or dyed on one face, and as explained by text, the same colour all the way through, as can be evidenced from the cross section of the pen barrel.

I have not checked conclusively for celluloid, or "bakelite" as to be sure that it is, is invasive, and this is not my pen.

Eric

[mr goldfink]

Eric

 

I can't view any pictures now as my phone's battery has died on me and the OS on the PC I am using right now does not show hosted pictures (maybe to do with security settings).

 

I know you are looking for urgent reply. So, does your pen have a hard rubber section or is it flat and made of the same material as the barrel? If the former then you have a celluloid pen and if the latter then it is a 1929 pen with bakelite barrel.

 

Hope this helps...

 

MG

Edited July 26, 2010 by mr goldfink

[eckiethump]

Taken from another thread:-Akiva

I can't see the two holes one underneath the other on the cap so I think the pen is later than the early 30's

The cap with this pen has these two holes, it's missing the clip. Initially I thought the two hoes were some ones attempt to put a riveted clip on

Eric

 

[Rick Propas]

MG,

 

You may be right. My apologies for having offended you. I bow to your superior knowledge.

 

Rick

Edited July 26, 2010 by Rick Propas

[mr goldfink]

Rick

 

It's not a war of superiority. We all make mistakes but I have to draw the line when being admonished in such a way, erroneously, and in a public forum!

 

Best wishes

 

MG

[christof]

Hi all

 

This is an extremely interesting topic! The different materials of pelikan barrels and the different aging of them is a thing that makes me thinking about for a long time.

 

Let’s try to collect some examples and see what the experts have to say about it. Here is my collection:

 

#1 late 100 with acrylic barrel

 

#2 late 100N with acrylic barrel

 

#3 late IBIS, inside painted acrylic barrel

 

#4 pre 1949 100N with acrylic barrel

 

#5 cellulose nitrate or acetate?

 

#6 cellulose nitrate?

 

#7 first year 100N, cellulose nitrate or acetate?

 

#8 1938 100N, cellulose nitrate or acetate?

 

#9 acrylic barrel

 

 

 

...perhaps we will find some more examples?

Edited July 28, 2010 by christof

[eckiethump]

Nothing like the quality of Christofs pens or photo's, but may be of some interest or help in dating.

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/eckiefump/Pelikanredwindow.jpg

Another picture of the viewing window, the colour is redder than the brown shown

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/eckiefump/PelikanFeed.jpg

barrel feed and cap, note the two breather holes on the cap, it has the same the other side

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/eckiefump/PelikanArrow.jpg

Arrow still visible on the turning knob

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/eckiefump/PelikanCaptop.jpg

View of the cap top, I think this may assist in the pens dating.

 

Any information on this pen would be much appreciated, the clip is a replacement non Pelikan clip.

TIA

Eric

[christof]

Now, dating is easy! Must be 1930 or 1931 because of the shape of the section.

 

Nice pen Eric.