How 'old' is 'Vintage' currently?

[Splicer]

Would all this rating/classifiying of pens make models like the new Parker Duofold 'retro'?

Oh, yes. But the most selfconsciously retro, IMO, are Waterman. The Phileas is quite jokingly a pastiche of pastness. BTW, one of my peeves is the fact that Waterman built a pen that is clearly an homage to the 100 Year Pen, and then named it for a dance from the wrong decade. It shouldn't be called the Charleston, but more like the Lindy Hop.

 

The Charleston was the first step I learned when I learned to Lindy. The Savoy Charleston in the 30s and 40s was more popular and widespread than the Charleston was in the 20s, and AFAIK at the time they didn't make the distinction in the name except sometimes to call it the Swing Charleston.

 

Hmm. I'll bet no one ever makes a "slam" or "mosh" pen modeled after the styles of the 80s.

[jicaino]

vintage means "20 years or older", and comes from french language in wich 20 is pronounced "vint". By this means a french late P75 would be "vintage"...

 

now with "modern" we're splitting 2 or more variables: style vs. dating. As far as style goes, i.e. chrysler's building is clearly modern, but architectonichally speaking.

[SincerelySpicy]

vintage means "20 years or older", and comes from french language in wich 20 is pronounced "vint".

 

 

Huh? Are you sure about this etymology? because i find this....

 

"c.1450, "harvest of grapes, yield of wine from a vineyard," from Anglo-Fr. vintage (1353), from O.Fr. vendage "yield from a vineyard," from L. vindemia "a gathering of grapes, yield of grapes," from comb. form of vinum "wine" + stem of demere "take off" (from de- "from, away from" + emere "to take;" see exempt). Sense shifted to "age or year of a particular wine" (1746), then to a general sense of "being of an earlier time" (1883). Used of cars since 1928."

 

 

citation: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search...searchmode=none

Edited September 19, 2007 by SJM1123

[Dave Johannsen]

when does the 'vintage' period start .../ for you/...

 

I will just say what it means to me... I denote as "vintage," anything produced prior to about the mid to late forties. The demarkation for me is when the ball point largely supplanted the fountain pen as the writing instrument of general use. I call pens from the mid-forties to the mid to late seventies or so, "modern." I reserve the word "contemprorary" for those made after the mid-seventies. The distinction between "modern" and "contemporary" being (in my own mind only, I'm sure) when I percieve the fountain pen as transitioning as the writing instrument of a few odd-ball troglodytes to a status symbol/luxury item (where it is clearly marketed today). I'm probably out of the mainstream in this usage, but it makes sense to me.

 

 

Dave

[captnemo]

vintage means "20 years or older", and comes from french language in wich 20 is pronounced "vint".

 

 

Huh? Are you sure about this etymology? because i find this....

 

"c.1450, "harvest of grapes, yield of wine from a vineyard," from Anglo-Fr. vintage (1353), from O.Fr. vendage "yield from a vineyard," from L. vindemia "a gathering of grapes, yield of grapes," from comb. form of vinum "wine" + stem of demere "take off" (from de- "from, away from" + emere "to take;" see exempt). Sense shifted to "age or year of a particular wine" (1746), then to a general sense of "being of an earlier time" (1883). Used of cars since 1928."

 

 

citation: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search...searchmode=none

 

 

Hmm, yeah I always thought vintage was a term from the wine business that refers to a particular year / harvest. Wines are aged for many years and certain vintages (harvests / years) are prized more than others. This style of speaking among wine fanciers leaked over into common speech as such terms often do. I personally define vintage as referring to something that older, really good, and usually not made anymore. (The 1962 vintage of such-and-such wine will never occur again and when it's gone it's gone). It's a very fuzzy term for me because its use depends on the rate of change in the field I want to apply it to. The computer field evolves at a tremendous rate and so a computer game from 1995 would be a vintage game--even though it's only 12 years old, it's truly ancient today.

 

It's interesting to me to note that when I was a kid in the 1950's, the term antique was not a fuzzy term and it meant 100 years old or more. Calling something antique that was not 100 years old was considered fraud. Over time, probably for marketing reasons, "antique" became 75, then 50, and now it seems to be 25 years. We live in a faster society today. A hundred years ago, a piece of furniture that was 20 years old was still considered new. Today, 20 year old furniture is considered old.

 

Anyway, those are my observations on these fuzzy terms.

 

Oh, and if I was forced to pick a demarcation year for vintage, it would be pre-1960. And a question for me is what will my opinion be in the year 2020? Will I move the year forward or leave it at 1960?

[PAKMAN]

For autos to get a vintage tag in our state they have to be 25 years old. But that defination just doesn't work for me Vintage autos are from before I started driving so that would be late 60's early 70's. So for pens I'd have to go with before I started writing! Early 50's would fit my defination but I will have to say My vintage would be anything before 1950.

 

 

[holgate]

I'd incline with Shangas and say 'vintage' in the FP world ought to mean 'Before Ballpoints Ruled The World', which pretty much overlaps with Richard's 1960 threshold. Of course, 'vintage' on eBay generally means 'older than "brand new" and newer than "antique"'

[FrankB]

Wouldn't it be nice if there were an actual definition to the term "vintage?" Intellectually, I am of a mind that it would be 40-years old or older. In the pen world, from 2007 that would put the cut off in the 1960's, which overlaps the gereral acceptance of ball points. Emotionally, though, I still think of "vintage" as pens introduced during or before the 1950's. I say "intorduced" so that pens like the Parker 51 would be included, though it was manufacturered through the 1960's (in South America).

 

It is difficult for me to have a feel for terms that apply to the age of objects. At my age, I have furniture that is going on 30-years old that I use every day. Some of my mother's everyday furniture is going on 50-years old.

[Bisquitlips]

I'm old but not Vintage!

 

I vote "pre-1960".

 

 

I have several fountain pens that I consider vintage due to their "mileage" not their age. :0)

 

Vintage doesn't always have to do with age, but how something is perceived. An example would be wine. Its almost an emotion.

 

Just 2 cents from a newbie to the board.

[jonro]

I agree with Shangas and Holgate. I consider the term vintage to apply to fountain pens made before the Age of Ballpoints (AB). According to Wikipedia, the first ballpoint pens in the USA were sold at Gimbels department store in New York, in 1945. They were sold in some other countries, including Argentina and Britain prior to that. There were versions of ballpoint pens going back to the late 19th century, but none were practical for writing. I don't know how long it took for ballpoints to take over the market, but 1955-1960 seems fairly close. I haven't had time to research it, but I seem to recall some major fountain pen companies going out of business or being taken over around that time, probably largely due to marketplace competition from the ballpoint.

 

To summarize, vintage pens, in my opinion, are fountain pens from the time Before Ballpoints (BB) became the primary writing instrument of the masses. The word vintage means "the time that something of quality was produced." Vintage doesn't imply a certain age, but a certain quality. Obviously, fountain pens of very high quality are produced today. But when the ballpoint started to take over, I think it's fair to say that fountain pen manufacturers responded by trying to compete in price and style with the newly popular ballpoint pen. The overall quality of fountain pens decreased. Fountain pens from before that time should be considered vintage.

[Quicksilver]

I tend to agree with Richard, and usually point towards about 1960 as vintage. No good reason, it just seems right to me. Ask again in twenty years, and you'll likely get a different answer though. And as someone else mentioned, do you consider a pen retro? What about antique? I think these are labels that change with the era, and modern pens are likely to take a little longer to fall into the vintage category than past pens.

 

Afterthought, it seems around 1960 was the end of true fountain pen innovation. Everything after is pretty derivative of what came before, with the cartridge being the last biggish change. You had capillary fillers, snorkels, touchdowns, companies trying all this new stuff to keep market share. I think it is after that boom that one draws the vintage line, because things settled down and we haven't seen that kind of action since. Make sense?

[WillAdams]

When was the vanishing point developed?

 

There was the Level 5 system from Pelikan as well.

 

William

 

 

[Quicksilver]

The VP came out in November of 1963.

[WillAdams]

Well there you go, two innovations in fountain pen technology after 1960.

 

William

 

 

[Quicksilver]

I didn't mean there wasn't any after exactly 1960, it just seems like it was around then the pacing started slowing doing down. Inlaid and Triumph nibs came in as two of the last big advances in nibs, but we haven't seen much movement there. Converters have become popular fillers, but outside of that we still use a lot of the same old piston type fillers and cartridges. We still run on mostly technology that came out of that time period.

[WillAdams]

Things have definitely slowed down --- one other advance though would be the Sailor Trident 360 nib.

 

William

 

 

[fenrisfox]

Hmm, a "Brand-X" Mosh?

 

My guess - the nib is designed to break in two, after a few too many rounds of ill-guided, pounding writing! :roflmho:

 

Or - it'll be a ball-point named that: a 50-cent one!

[fenrisfox]

I'll throw in my vote for the 1960 threshold also. My Mom always hung her hat on 1950 though.

 

I could just imagine the delimiter creeping forward with the generations... :ltcapd:

[fenrisfox]

I'd incline with Shangas and say 'vintage' in the FP world ought to mean 'Before Ballpoints Ruled The World'

(snip)

 

Hehe, that's cute.

[fenrisfox]

LMAO!

 

I LOVE that AB and BB thing... I'm going write about that on my blog. :roflmho: