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Prototype "FOUNTAINBEL" P51 clutch extractor tool


fountainbel
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Hi All,

Attached some pictures & an assembly drawing showing a new extractor prototype I've designed & just made.

Contrary to the "simple to make" tool - which, as I told - was not perfect , this tool works is (nearly) perfect.

As stated, this is only a prototype, the collet is finished by hand ( drilling, sawing & filing) . This implies it may look a little rough, but I can assure you it works perfect!

An important benefit of this design is the fact that there are no risks to expand the cap when engaging the pulling fingers, since there is nor radial pressure build-up inside the cap needed.

1- CLUTCH EXTRACTED:

On the first picture you can see the retracted clutch still sitting on the tool ( after the hand nut was screwed backwards again.

You can see that the white grip plug of the internal back-up plug (behind the hand nut) is still pushed in, avoiding the 5 collet fingers would ply inwards & slip out of the clutch slots due to the "break-loose" force build-up during extraction.

 

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h89/foun...chextracted.jpg

2- CLUTCH REMOVED FROM EXTRACTOR JPG : After the internal back-up plug is retracted - you can see the steel back-up plug shaft now- the collet fingers can be pushed inwards allowing removal of the clutch.

 

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h89/foun...omextractor.jpg

3- SPRING CLUTCH EXTRACTED IN TOOL : Here you can see the fully extracted clutch still sitting on the collet inside of the tool housing.

Remark also the 5 mm deep centering chamber on which the cap is centered on its external diameter, the back-up step, axially supporting the cap during extraction & the narrower chamber in which the spring clutch is extracted.

 

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h89/foun...actedintool.jpg

4-ASSEMBLY DRAWING : http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h89/foun...chextractor.jpg

 

I don't manage to get pictures directly on the board lately,the files seem always to large, so I'll try using "photo bucket" now.

I hope I'll succeed adding the links & hope it works out to open the files. Please confirm !

Note I have no direct intention to make the tool for sale, the collet is rather complicated to make by hand & even using CNC machines it will be expensive.

I'm sure some of you can use the drawing to make their own "fountainbel" extractor !

Good luck!

 

Cheers, Francis

 

PS: Happy 4th of July!

Shearing this design with all of you is my 4th July present for my American fellow penfreaks.

 

edited for adding PS

Edited by fountainbel
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Francis,

 

Nice clutch tool. You

 

I have one question as to your design. Why did you opt to grab the clutch in the eyes instead of at the end where you would not need rounded fingers?

 

Just curious.

 

Todd

 

 

San Francisco International Pen Show - The next great pen show is on schedule for August 27-28-29, 2021. If we all do what we need to do...you can Book your travel and tables and make SF 2021 the Return. 
 

 My PM box is usually full. Just email me: my last name at the google mail address.

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Thanks Todd.

Given the press fit mounting of the clutch in the cap , grabbing the clutch at the end one would fold the clutch fingers inwards, instead of extracting the clutch.

 

Francis

 

Francis,

 

Nice clutch tool. You

 

I have one question as to your design. Why did you opt to grab the clutch in the eyes instead of at the end where you would not need rounded fingers?

 

Just curious.

 

Todd

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Francis, that is a great looking jig you built! You and I think alike it seems, if no-one makes it the answer is not that it can not be done, just that you need to make it yourself!

 

 

“If you want your children to improve, let them overhear the nice things you say about them to others.” ~Dr. Haim Ginott

 

http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww296/messiah_FPN/Badges/PostcardBadge.png http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww296/messiah_FPN/Badges/InkExchange.png

 

My Website

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are you planning to offer these for sale?

Sensitive Pen Restoration doesn't cost extra.

 

Find me on Facebook at MONOMOY VINTAGE PEN

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This is a pretty neat tool!

 

Did you have to work on the cap lip, like some sort of burnishing, to make it easier to release the clutch?

 

Impressive work!

 

Al

Mundus Vult Decipi, Decipiatur Ergo

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Thanks all for your comments.

Framebaer & Sean, I'll decide on making the tool for sale shortly

Still looking for designing a less complex collet, hence less time consuming to fabricate.

I'll appriciate if someone might have an idea on simplification of the collet design!

Al, No burnishing involved:

The collet- and the lengthwise 27mm long collet slots- are long enough providing flexibility to pinch the fingers manually together for removing the springclutch.

cheers, Francis

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Al,

Sorry I misunderstood your question initially.

Opening the cap edge by burnishing -prior of starting extraction - is not needed with this tool.

Extraction occurs while the cap is perfectly aligned with the tool, so the "slightly swaged" cap lip will be pulled open by the solid assembly consisting of clutch/ collet & internal backup plug .

One can surely feel the initial "force build up" difference extracting a clutch from GF cap (brass) or a stainless cap.

On the GF cap the clutch omes out using a consideraby lower screw-actuating torque.

 

 

 

This is a pretty neat tool!

 

Did you have to work on the cap lip, like some sort of burnishing, to make it easier to relea se the clutch?

 

Impressive work!

 

Al

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dear Francis

 

Your comit to create simple solutions for pen repair deserves a standing ovation. As I commented thru e-mail, your tool is excellent.

 

I base my evaluation on this principles wich I try to follow every time I create and design any piece of tooling:

 

1- simple design with no fancy uncalled for features that IMHO sometimes are there just for (sur)charging several hundreds of bucks

2- ease of operation. Even the beginer can understand your conceptions and basic instructions

3- practical solution using modern technologies yet preserving and respecting the spirit of the piece you're fixing/replacing

4- generosity. You give. Your drawings and detailed explanations makes the reproduction of your hours of thoughts a piece of cake for any intermediate and up machinist /toolmaker. Many people just developes a tool and then try to create a haze of mistery around so they preserve the business.

 

As I commented thru e-mail (sorry I have been posting scarcely, the ammount of hourly content growing in this forum really overwhelms my time dedication avalibility, plus I have been crazy at the shop, overhauling dozens of pens and a couple dozen of wind instruments) I'm a little bit thrown off by the fact that I have never seen a 5 slots clutch. All P51 I have dismantled had either the early 4 slots long clutch wich extends way up to the inner cap or the later 4 slots short clutch. The only "concerns" that I have are this: I don't feel extra comfortable putting so much stress on the fragile cap lip without previous unrolling it. This is a detail and if everything is OK I would say that chances of damaging a cap lip are slim.

 

I know that you haven't been getting feedback... don't give up, sometimes alternative developing raises eyebrows plus you're not in the states so people might feel a little reluctant about your top notch engineering concepts and the cool, swinging spin you put in your designs, not coming from an american. (No offense intended to the wonderful people of america, it's just the way it is)

 

Overall I see a generous fellow who's trying to dissolve the hazy mistery created about pen repair tools and procedures. As I mentioned on our email interchange, you'll get zero feedback or maybe even a couple of "well that ain't original" as some people commented about the fountainbel cartridges. Keep it coming man, you're in the right track from where I see things. I know that some people that are using tools from you haven't commented here.

 

I have a couple of designs for cap band installing/tightening that I'll be discussing with you soon. As you might know in clarinet and woodwind repairs you often need to flushband a piece of hollow hardwood to stabilize cracks and such so I know my tooling for this and I believe we can team together for creating a simple and non-misterious set up for this and other works.

 

Being pens sort of a hobby to me (my main dedication is restoring 60's and earlier american vintage saxophones and clarinets) I have way more less time than I would like to have for chatting with you about tooling ideas.

 

I like your prototype and I'm sure once finished and perfected it will sell like hot cakes, because price/quality of the tool/quality of the work performed equation would balance things up for your side.

 

Congrats!

 

Juan

Please don't send PM's, use my e-mail instead. Thanks!

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Dear Francis

 

Your comit to create simple solutions for pen repair deserves a standing ovation. As I commented thru e-mail, your tool is excellent.

 

I base my evaluation on this principles wich I try to follow every time I create and design any piece of tooling:

 

1- simple design with no fancy uncalled for features that IMHO sometimes are there just for (sur)charging several hundreds of bucks

2- ease of operation. Even the beginer can understand your conceptions and basic instructions

3- practical solution using modern technologies yet preserving and respecting the spirit of the piece you're fixing/replacing

4- generosity. You give. Your drawings and detailed explanations makes the reproduction of your hours of thoughts a piece of cake for any intermediate and up machinist /toolmaker. Many people just developes a tool and then try to create a haze of mistery around so they preserve the business.

 

As I commented thru e-mail (sorry I have been posting scarcely, the ammount of hourly content growing in this forum really overwhelms my time dedication avalibility, plus I have been crazy at the shop, overhauling dozens of pens and a couple dozen of wind instruments) I'm a little bit thrown off by the fact that I have never seen a 5 slots clutch. All P51 I have dismantled had either the early 4 slots long clutch wich extends way up to the inner cap or the later 4 slots short clutch. The only "concerns" that I have are this: I don't feel extra comfortable putting so much stress on the fragile cap lip without previous unrolling it. This is a detail and if everything is OK I would say that chances of damaging a cap lip are slim.

 

I know that you haven't been getting feedback... don't give up, sometimes alternative developing raises eyebrows plus you're not in the states so people might feel a little reluctant about your top notch engineering concepts and the cool, swinging spin you put in your designs, not coming from an american. (No offense intended to the wonderful people of america, it's just the way it is)

 

Overall I see a generous fellow who's trying to dissolve the hazy mistery created about pen repair tools and procedures. As I mentioned on our email interchange, you'll get zero feedback or maybe even a couple of "well that ain't original" as some people commented about the fountainbel cartridges. Keep it coming man, you're in the right track from where I see things. I know that some people that are using tools from you haven't commented here.

 

I have a couple of designs for cap band installing/tightening that I'll be discussing with you soon. As you might know in clarinet and woodwind repairs you often need to flushband a piece of hollow hardwood to stabilize cracks and such so I know my tooling for this and I believe we can team together for creating a simple and non-misterious set up for this and other works.

 

Being pens sort of a hobby to me (my main dedication is restoring 60's and earlier american vintage saxophones and clarinets) I have way more less time than I would like to have for chatting with you about tooling ideas.

 

I like your prototype and I'm sure once finished and perfected it will sell like hot cakes, because price/quality of the tool/quality of the work performed equation would balance things up for your side.

 

Congrats!

 

Juan

Good points, well made, from one craftsman/engineer to another, both your inputs are well appreciated, along with your unstinting desire, and I am sure as others are, obliged at you willingness to share your knowledge and information.

et

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge (Charles Darwin)

http://www.wesonline.org.uk/

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"Overall I see a generous fellow who's trying to dissolve the hazy mistery created about pen repair tools and procedures. As I mentioned on our email interchange, you'll get zero feedback or maybe even a couple of "well that ain't original" as some people commented about the fountainbel cartridges. Keep it coming man, you're in the right track from where I see things. I know that some people that are using tools from you haven't commented here."

 

Hear Hear. Perfect comment that sums up exactly how I feel. I have used Francis's plunger filler convertor (and usually call it the wrong thing in posts, sorry) and have been very impressed with it. I would love to get one of these clutch pullers, but do not have the cash at this time. Perhaps some day soon.

 

Francis is a skilled craftsman who is doing a great job bringing tooling to those of us who can use and appreciate it.

 

Cheers,

Sean

PenRx is no longer in business.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi all,

I want to give you some test feedback on the tool.

FPN member framebaer tested one of my extractor prototypes and unfortunately the results are not so good.

I've made the collet from bronze on the prototypes, optimally the collet should be made from steel and harden & tempered. Making the collet in hard able steel is however much more difficult so I decided to test with a bronze collet. As posted earlier, my results were good, so I thought I could get along with the hard bronze;

Given the results of framebaer's evaluation, it looks I've made a bad decision.

It seems the pulling edges of the bronze collet- gripping in the clutch slots- are wearing off rather quickly against the sharp edges of the slots. Once the finger edges are rounded extraction will fail, surely on steel caps.

In the end the collet fingers slide over the edge of the clutch grooves, resulting in the fact the clutch is not extracted. The back-up plunger diameter should maybe also slightly increased avoiding this problem.

Making harden & tempered steel collets will solve the problem, I will test this shortly.

 

Thanks framebaer for your valuable feedback !

 

Regards, Francis

 

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I don't think that hard bronze would fail to perform the task if the cap is worked any other fashion than making the collet pull against the rolled edge of the cap resting against a support. I would go with a tapered piece of bronze inside of the inner cap being the support of the extraction screw once the collet's in place. Bronze will grip better than hardened steel over spring steel.

Please don't send PM's, use my e-mail instead. Thanks!

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Hi Juan,

You are surely right that the rolled edge is a serious extraction barrier, surely on the steel caps.

However I have no intention to make another version, I will only equip one the 3 prototypes I've made with a harden steel collet.

Just for my intellectual satisfaction & for my own occasional use.

Given the initial results I had with the bronze collet, and now seeing the initially sharp pulling edges on my tool getting also gradually round-off, I am rather confident that I will succeed with a harden steel collet

I will also slightly increase the diamater of the internal back-up plunger,fully avoiding the collet bends somewhat inwards when starting extraction.

This will take a while ,since my wife is complaining I urgently have to shear my hedges & harvest the summmer honey from my bees

But I'll surely keep you posted on the results

Francis

 

 

 

I don't think that hard bronze would fail to perform the task if the cap is worked any other fashion than making the collet pull against the rolled edge of the cap resting against a support. I would go with a tapered piece of bronze inside of the inner cap being the support of the extraction screw once the collet's in place. Bronze will grip better than hardened steel over spring steel.
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I know that you haven't been getting feedback... don't give up, sometimes

alternative developing raises eyebrows plus you're not in the states so people

might feel a little reluctant about your top notch engineering concepts and the

cool, swinging spin you put in your designs, not coming from an american. (No

offense intended to the wonderful people of america, it's just the way it is)

 

This paragraph leaded to a bitter e-mail accusing me of xenophobist and being inclined to mock american people. I have responded to the person thru PM, but I do like to make myself clear: I'm not making fun or deprocative comments about US citizens here. Based upon my knowledge of a vast amount of americans of great cultural, social and economical diversity, I do think that some "foreign" ideas takes longer to soak in. Hence my use of the word "might"... is a personal comment. Perhaps this quoted paragraph could be more suited to be sent via PM or e-mail, and I do apologize if I offended other than the person who wrote me a kind but bitter PM. (Already apologized to him/her via PM)

 

There's nothing more frustrating than silence (that is to the kind of person that Francis is, I can relate because I feel we have very similar conceptions about certain things and I did have feel frustration in the past from sharing one "revolutionary" design and get crickets in exchange... that's even worse than criticism!) and the "rant" is about this. I'm not saying that every FP used should have the mechanical or machinistical inclination we share, nor implying everybody should immediately praise any post by Francis (wether they get it or not) I'm kind of asking the people who have a good knowledge on this kind of tooling (perhaps even by first hand tryout of Francis' tools! ) to comment and start a good juicy interchange.

 

 

Thanks! and honestly, no offense intended! :thumbup:

Edited by jicaino

Please don't send PM's, use my e-mail instead. Thanks!

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I know that you haven't been getting feedback... don't give up, sometimes

alternative developing raises eyebrows plus you're not in the states so people

might feel a little reluctant about your top notch engineering concepts and the

cool, swinging spin you put in your designs, not coming from an american. (No

offense intended to the wonderful people of america, it's just the way it is)

 

This paragraph leaded to a bitter e-mail accusing me of xenophobist and being inclined to mock american people. I have responded to the person thru PM, but I do like to make myself clear: I'm not making fun or deprocative comments about US citizens here. Based upon my knowledge of a vast amount of americans of great cultural, social and economical diversity, I do think that some "foreign" ideas takes longer to soak in. Hence my use of the word "might"... is a personal comment. Perhaps this quoted paragraph could be more suited to be sent via PM or e-mail, and I do apologize if I offended other than the person who wrote me a kind but bitter PM. (Already apologized to him/her via PM)

 

There's nothing more frustrating than silence (that is to the kind of person that Francis is, I can relate because I feel we have very similar conceptions about certain things and I did have feel frustration in the past from sharing one "revolutionary" design and get crickets in exchange... that's even worse than criticism!) and the "rant" is about this. I'm not saying that every FP used should have the mechanical or machinistical inclination we share, nor implying everybody should immediately praise any post by Francis (wether they get it or not) I'm kind of asking the people who have a good knowledge on this kind of tooling (perhaps even by first hand tryout of Francis' tools! ) to comment and start a good juicy interchange.

 

 

Thanks! and honestly, no offense intended! :thumbup:

 

Hi Juan

I've enjoyed your tool and comments in this thread and being a former Clarinet player in high school (a long time ago--I have 10 years on you) I'm certainly interested in hearing more about your clarinet and sax work (perhaps in another topic) and how it helps you relate to pen work.

 

Incidentally, I'm American and read your previous posts. No offense taken by your comments, however, remember that there are many Americans reading and different folks are offended by different comments. I realize that there are many Americans (and others) who offend with their comments and opinions. These days, pretty much any opinion will undoubtedly offend someone, particularly one that addresses age, country of origin, gender, etc. etc. and additionally if the comment generalizes or stereotypes. I personally am not easily offended and privately make fun of some of the politically correct things we tend to follow these days but I do try to respect everyone as best as I can. (Though I do dare to ride my bicycle without a helmet as I did when I was a youngster :P ) My best personal policy is not to tread on controversial or heated subjects as others on forums tend to thrive on. In general, the pen community is one of the most friendly and well behaved special interest community I have had the pleasure of observing.

 

Getting back to pens and Clarinets, I'd welcome more postings from you regarding the technicals in repair and restoration for both. In the appropriate forum topic of course. That is, ones that share experiences and not proprietary secrets. :embarrassed_smile:

 

All the best!

Mike

Mike Kirk

(~==]=====]]

Penfindum Restorum

Memberhttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/mikelkirk99/Pen%20Misc/bps_pin_2013_zps75ed3895.png http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/mikelkirk99/Pen%20Misc/pca_logo100x100_zps688ac2a8.png

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Hi Juan and all

Juan, I'm very sorry to hear you received a negative response on your board reaction in my favor.

Just a you say, "foreign" ideas take longer to soak in, sometimes called the "non invented here" syndrome.

And I do understand this happens, US people are rightfully proud on their impressive technical realizations over the last centuries, so they may feel uncomfortable & somewhat reluctant when a foreigner is trying to make improvements on these.

In fact it works the same this side of the ocean.

But just as you mentioned, getting no feedback from technical competent people- and there are lots of them on FPN!- feels more frustrating then getting critical feedback.

I really appreciate critical feedback, since it can help me improving my design.

And I will surely take profit of this feedback, admit when the suggestion is justified & apply it in my design.

Even at my age I'm still anxious to learn from other people.

This is in fact how a used to work in my job, were I enjoyed listening & changing ideas, both with international management colleagues, and even more with the international "hands on" colleagues, who were daily confronted with shortcomings.

Thanks again for your support, which - I'm convinced- was not mend to offensive towards our mutual American "pen freak" friends

Regards, Francis.

 

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Hi all,

Just wanted to brief you on my further tests & improvements I've made on the tool.

After receiving Framebaer's feedback on his poor extraction results, I've checked my tool with a loupe & could clearly see the grip edges of the fingers also started to wear, so also my tool will shortly give problems

This problem was triggered by 2 facts :

1- The back-up plunger diameter- now 9.7mm should be increased to 9.95mm, ensuring the collet fingers can not slide inwards during extraction.

I wrongly counted on the pretension of the O ring build-in the back-up plunger to provide the back-up.

Although the external diameter of the mounted O ring is 10.2mm, the rubber is to flexible to withstand the inward force during extraction.

2- The collet- now made in hard bronze- should be made in silver steel allowing the collet fingers to be harden at 55-58 HRC, ensuring high wear resistance against the sharp edged (=burrs) clutch slots.

 

Being frustrated on Framebaer's findings I implemented the above mentioned improvements on my tool today.

I took 5 Parker 51 steel caps from pens out of my personal collection & succesfully pulled all

clutches out, without any damage to the pen parts, nor to the collet edges.

On one clutch there was even serious rust formation between the cap & clutch contact surfaces.

Note also that I did not unroll , nor soak or heat up the cap end.

Francis

Edited by fountainbel
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  • 9 years later...

Just found this topic on the P51 clutch - something I have been searching for - for a long time! Do you have one for sale?

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