Question for vintage pen users

[Waltz For Zizi]

I was not much of a vintage pen fan until a year ago when I started to get a lot of vintage pens with sacks like Parker 21, 41, 51, UK Duofolds and so on, and all of them despite the age had working sacks, although with dried ink in them and not properly cared for.

I keep hearing that you should only use Waterman blue ink in vintage pens cause it doesn't affect the sac as other inks, but to me it would be horrible to only use them like this.

Have you got any experience with using other inks in these type of pens, inks like Iroshizuku, and Diamine, my main inks?

or you only use Waterman blue in them? Would using other inks destroy these sacks that otherwise survived over 50 years?

Also, this Waterman blue, can at least be the lighter/turquoise ink, or just the plain blue one?

[InkyProf]

In addition to Waterman Serenity Blue, Mysterious Blue, and Intense Black,  I’ve used Sheaffer Skrip, Parker Quink,  Aurora, Pelikan 4001, a lot of J. Herbin, and I think some Lamy in sacked vintage pens, in multiple colors, though largely in the green to blue to black range rather than the purple to red range, so far without incident. I’ve avoided Diamine because their inks often seem highly saturated compared to these others, and I generally reserve other inks (from boutique producers and/or Japanese and Korean producers, which supposedly lean alkaline, though there are almost certainly exceptions to this rule) for cartridge-converter pens. I’m a little more adventurous when it comes to vintage piston fillers, but not too much. Not saying this is “the right way,” just reporting what has worked for me so far.

[PAKMAN]

Any Parker, Sheaffer or Waterman ink will be safe to use in a vintage pen with a rubber sac. 

[PPPR]

Ink sacs wear out eventually no matter the ink, so I don't worry about it. I've read the horror stories related to certain brands and colors of ink. None of those things have happened to me using the same inks with my vintage pens over many decades. This is to say you may or may not have problems with the so-called problem inks if you were to try them. Using whatever ink I felt like has not had a deleterious effect on any pen, vintage or not.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Kon-piki ate a rubber sac in my 1918-30's 0554 Gothic Waterman pen, with one use only. Franicis said the sac was mush.

[sandy101]

I use Parker inks with my vintage Parkers. 

[Penguincollector]

ETA: I’ve been having trouble posting sometimes, this was to have been posted this morning.
 

  I will add that most Japanese inks are alkaline and will chemically interact with a latex sac and turn it into goo. 
 

   I personally use mostly Waterman, Parker, Sheaffer, Pelikan, Kaweco, Herbin, and Diamine (nothing too saturated or shimmery for the latter two). I also like Aurora (although I have been out for awhile, need to remedy that).

 

  For the pli-glass Parker pens, I have found that they are more forgiving and will take modern inks. I use the more saturated inks in these safely. 

[inkstainedruth]

For me it depends on the pen and type of fill system.

I don't hesitate to put modern inks (even purple inks and some Noodler's inks into my 51s with the pli-glass sacs (since those were designed to use some really nasty Parker ink -- Superchrome, maybe?).  The 61s, which are all capillary fillers, mostly get J Herbin Eclat de Saphir (although the 61 Flighter currently has J Herbin Vert Empire in it).  

The Red Shadow Wave Vac ran for 3 years with Waterman Mysterious Blue after I had it checked it out (bought it at an auction at a pen show, and the person who checked it out for me, Mike Kennedy of Indy-Pen-Dance, the next morning told me he thought the sac in it was okay when he tested it with water.   And so I said, "You got ink?"  And he told me he had Waterman Mysterious Blue.  So inked it up with that and did ZERO maintenance on it for the next three years, other than refillingit with that ink as needed.

OTOH, I have a Sheaffer Snorkel that isn't in the best shape -- and when it was repaired, I was told to NOT fill it with ANYTHING until I talked to the guy who did the work (apparently there were serious issues with the pen when I bought it).  So that pen gets modern Skrip Black....  Period.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[Ron Z]

Two articles to read.

 

One is my article on sacs No Silver Bullets.

 

The second is Richard Binder's article on ink.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Quotes from Ron’s Silver Bullet,

 Esterbrooks sacs are the toughest that I’ve seen in any pen.  I often find the pens with the original sac in the pen, many times still in fine shape though the rest of the pen shows evidence of serious use!

Some 15 and more years ago, when I started, I had a ’48-52, by the ink lever gray marbled Esterbrook, whose sack had lasted 62 years.

 

I find that one of the modern super-saturated “boutique inks” like Noodlers or Private Reserve, or a saturated ink containing red die was used in the pen.  Failure sometimes happens in a matter of a couple of months, sometimes it takes several months or a year.

I avoid red inks in piston pens, someone left Parker Penmann Ruby Red in a Pelikan 200 and after months of using Pen Flush to get it clean it has become a red ink only pen, in it will still show pinkish water, time and time again.

A very good article Ron. So much sadness explained.

 

I hadn’t read Richard, much less his ink article in in years. I use to read him every couple of years at first, then unfortunately outside of looking at beautiful pens, not often enough…as proven. I have mostly piston pens, but was looking for an ink to run in a wet noodle and stupidly…in the information was given, and used Pilot Iroshizuku Kon Peki in my Waterman 0554 Gothic 1918-30’s sac pen.

It is my advice to noobies; spend three days reading Richard; I didn’t follow, often enough.

Richard wrote,“””””Most Japanese inks are alkaline. Alkaline inks are hostile to latex. I have experimental evidence that at least some of the Pilot Iroshizuku colors will destroy latex sacs. For this reason, I recommend that you avoid using Japanese inks in sac-filling pens as well as in pens that are made of organic resins and use the barrel for the ink reservoir (as described in the preceding paragraph).”””” Eyedroppers.

 

[jchch1950]

I don't change the colour of my inks {Blue and brown}, and I use them in old and new pens without being selective of which inks in which pens. Some old sacks had been changed, but that is the result of age more than a particular ink. {Skip, Parker, Waterman, Lamy}

[Mercian]

In my aerometric Parker "51"s I've used dye-based inks like Waterman 'Serenity Blue', but also Noodler's 'Bulletproof' Black , and Rohrer & Klingner 'Salix' (an iron-gall blue-black).
I found these pens to be too dry-writing for my tastes when I put R&K Scabiosa, and Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black (both i-g inks) in them, but I didn't have any problems with the inks attacking the sac.

 

In the vintage (1960s) squeeze converters that came with my Parker 45s & 75s, and the 1970s/80s squeeze converters that came with my two Sheaffer pens, I have used inks made by Rohrer & Klingner (including the Salix, and their 'Sepia', which says that it shouldn't be mixed with other inks), and dye-based inks made by Monteverde, and modern Parker Quink. I have also used Sailor's pigment ink 'Kiwa Guro' happily.
I don't know what the sacs in those converters are made from. I think that they could well be some kind of plastic, but they may be some variety of rubber 🤷

 

In my 1960s Parker UK Duofold (which contains the same type of 'pli-glass' sac that is found in aerometric Parker "51"s), I use R&K Salix and Scabiosa, and ESS Registrars' Ink (a 'heavy iron-gall' ink). I may well run Sailor's pigment-based blue/black 'Sou Boku' through this pen in future.

 

My experience of the sacs in my "51"s and UK Duofold suggests that I need not fear putting any kind of fountain-pen ink in to them. Whether the plasticiser in the PVC will ever eventually compromise their feed nipples is, of course, another matter

 

Slàinte,
M.

[FarmBoy]

Tests have determined it is the yellow ink that makes these special. 
 

 

[CallMeElmer]

Howdy- I have many vintage pens. I avoid super saturated inks and Japanese inks and the newer brands. I currently have been using a vintage Sheaffers Skrip permanent blue black, vintage Quink blue black (both appear readily available on ebay), and J Herbin Perl Noir with no issues. I have used Essri iron Gall ink from time to time, all with no issues. The conventional wisdom is, use established old school, not overly saturated or shimmer inks, or Japanese inks and if I follow that simple approach, I find I don't need to allocate much brain space to the issue.

 

dan

[Waltz For Zizi]

2 hours ago, CallMeElmer said:

Howdy- I have many vintage pens. I avoid super saturated inks and Japanese inks and the newer brands. I currently have been using a vintage Sheaffers Skrip permanent blue black, vintage Quink blue black (both appear readily available on ebay), and J Herbin Perl Noir with no issues. I have used Essri iron Gall ink from time to time, all with no issues. The conventional wisdom is, use established old school, not overly saturated or shimmer inks, or Japanese inks and if I follow that simple approach, I find I don't need to allocate much brain space to the issue.

 

dan

Im not a native english speaker, but what does saturated inks mean? Darker colors? Is for example a gray ink considered saturated? or an orange ink like diamine pumpkin?

[Claes]

A saturated ink simply means that

the ink has so much dye stuff (= colorant) in it 

that it simply cannot contain/dissolve/accept any more colorant.

 

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Claes like always, hit the nail on the head.

I don't use saturated inks. I think of them as thicker, often darker, monotone, often vivid....to me boring.

 

I like two toned shading inks, which are lighter with the ink pooling** where the stroke is wider; making the ink darker; in there is a tad ink more laying there; giving two tones of the ink, lighter where the letter is thinner by less pressure and form.

 

** One needs good to better paper for ink to shade. Economical good papers, in spiral notebooks are Oxford Optic 90g, and it's equal, Clairefontaine Veloute` 90g, and, new on the market Kyome 70g, which has very good sizing, so is @ = to the other two papers I mentioned.

Better, slick papers for me looking for shading, are Clairefontaine Triomphe, or Rhoda 80g.

Many 25% cotton papers are ok for shading.

G.Lalo Velin pur Coton is 50%, and good for shading. A laid paper, G. Lalo Verge` de France come in 90g, but I like heavy paper and have that in 160g...it is 25% cotton. Laid paper needs an M or B nib. It is a classic rough paper like other Laid and Linen-effect papers.

 

I find 50% or 100% cotton papers like Strathmore (a US paper) or Crown Mill (European) to be nice to write on but swallow the shading. I would guess them good for saturated inks where one only wants the color. 

Rossler feathers. Brunnen are Non Shading papers, outside of their M&K papers, are to be avoided. (Outside their brand new 120g paper.) I liked all three M&K, two were 80g-85(?) papers, but have only lately seen the 95g, Office (was called typewriter paper, until with in the last couple of years, and is sized only on the front side, in with typewriting one don't use the back.)

1 hour ago, Waltz For Zizi said:

Is for example a gray ink considered saturated? or an orange ink like diamine pumpkin?

 Gray is not saturated, I don't know that Pumpkin. Normally I don't think of orange inks as saturated but, it could be, if it don't shade on good to better paper.

 

Some De Atramentis inks are saturated, others not.

Graf von Faber-Castell could be saturated...and €€€. Moss Green, a dark green, didn't shade for me.

In I avoid inks that don't shade like the plague, I can't help you out much. 

[Carguy]

I have hundreds of vintage Parker pens with sacs and I have used Diamine inks almost exclusively with no issues. I have recently moved to some Colorverse and Tom’s Studio inks with no issues. My last bad ink adventure was with a well “Nown” brand almost 15 years ago. I haven’t used it since.

[Waltz For Zizi]

Would diluting such (saturated) inks with water help in making it more harmless?

for example I find yama-budo to be way too concentrated by how rarely I use my pens because I have so many filled at one time, that after a few weeks it becomes way darker than I like, so I always dilute it with water like 1 part ink and 3-4 parts water (distilled water would be better I guess) and it becomes a nice shade of pink. But I use it in inexpensive Jinhao pens.

[Penguincollector]

6 hours ago, Waltz For Zizi said:

Would diluting such (saturated) inks with water help in making it more harmless?

for example I find yama-budo to be way too concentrated by how rarely I use my pens because I have so many filled at one time, that after a few weeks it becomes way darker than I like, so I always dilute it with water like 1 part ink and 3-4 parts water (distilled water would be better I guess) and it becomes a nice shade of pink. But I use it in inexpensive Jinhao pens.

  A weaker base is still a base, so I don’t think it would work for Japanese ink in sac pens, but possibly for a saturated acidic or neutral ink. This is definitely a “attempt at your own risk” maneuver. 
 
  As someone who LOVES all the saturated, sheening, shimmering inks and also loves vintage, I don’t mix the two. I have inks for my modern pens, and inks for my vintage collection. If I really feel the need to write in eye searingly shimmery inks with a vintage pen, I’ll dip the nib.