Comparison of Sailor PG Slim nibs MF and M - is mine a QC issue?

[finzi]

Hi everyone. I own two PG Slim MF nibs and one PG Slim M. The difference in the line widths is quite dramatic, to the extent that I wonder if there is a QC issue with my M nib. Please see attached photos. I’ve tested the M nib on many different papers, and the results on all of them are the same. I couldn’t find any squared paper for scale, but the lowercase letters in that photo are about 3mm tall. Is this in line with your experience of these nib sizes, or do you think I have a QC issue on my hands?

 

P.S. Excuse the scrawl, this was not intended to be seen by others! 😂

 

 

 

ETA:

I am considering my next purchase, and if the consensus is that the difference is representative of all Sailor nibs, I would err on the side of caution and size down for my next pen. 

 

[A Smug Dill]

1. There is no (technical, or industry-wide) ‘standard’ for Sailor or any other brand in the global fountain pen industry to adhere to or comply with.
2. The MF nib you have writes finer than the M nib you have. Let's assume or pretend you also have an F nib of the same type. If it then also puts down finer lines of ink (using the same ink, on the same type or sheet of paper) than the MF nib, then what's there to ‘question’, ‘protest’, or ’complain’ about? Line widths from nibs marked F < MF < M, and that's what you and anyone else can reasonably expect. I have not seen Sailor published objective figures of how its nibs (or nib width grades) would write under test conditions, to demonstrate or articulate their differences from one another, such that you'd know exactly the outcome you'd get on the page with each of them.

[finzi]

Thank you Smug Dill. I am perfectly aware that a broader nib will lay down a broader line, I’m expressing surprise at the magnitude of the difference, which I believe was very clearly expressed in my original post. I think that you have a particular interest in discussions on the subjectivity versus objectivity, and also seem to be interested in whether people take online opinion as fact, but this isn’t really a discussion on that subject. 

 

If anybody else owns these nibs and  could let me know if they think that the difference in their nibs is similar to this, I’d be really interested to know.

[A Smug Dill]

6 minutes ago, finzi said:

If anybody else owns these nibs, I could let me know if they think that the difference in their lives is similar to this, I’d be really interested to know.

 

I have pens of the same form factor and alloy composition in all seven of Sailor's “standard” nib options, but I'm not ”anybody else”, so I'll leave it at that.

[finzi]

Just now, A Smug Dill said:

 

I have pens of the same form factor and alloy composition in all seven of Sailor's “standard” nib options, but I'm not ”anybody else”, so I'll leave it at that.

if you have an answer to my original question, please feel free, but you didn’t offer that information in your original post. 

[A Smug Dill]

17 hours ago, finzi said:

do you think I have a QC issue on my hands?

 

17 hours ago, finzi said:

you didn’t offer that information in your original post. 

 

You don't have a QC issue on your hands, that you could make a valid case/complaint to prosecute, if the MF nib writes finer than the M nib, and especially if (assuming you have one, or can borrow one) an F nib of the same type writes finer than the MF nib. That was what I was telling you. There is no standard, no stated range of objective measurements, for you to pursue an argument that one or the other nib you have on hand is out of stated/product/technical specifications for the designated nib width grade.

 

I spent a helluva lot of time pursuing disputes/complaints/arguments with AliExpress and sellers on there, and Amazon (Australia/UK/US/Japan), etc. and won the vast majority of them. This is not one I think I could win if it happened to me, if the premise was, ”I have a QC issue on my hands” because the observable differences in line width were unexpected to me.

[finzi]

Thank you. I was interested to hear opinions on the subject because I am considering my next purchase, and if the consensus is that the difference is representative of all Sailor nibs, I would err on the side of caution and size down for my next pen. 

[A Smug Dill]

10 minutes ago, finzi said:

I was interested to hear opinions on the subject because I am considering my next purchase,

 

[Lithium466]

I can't help you on the M sized nib subject, but out of a sample of 2 MF nibs (21K in medium and large size), I was both times surprised (displeased actually) by the "larger than I thought" increase in line width, compared to Sailor F nibs I have to compare.

Hard to say what their variability can be, or get more accurate expectations, sorry.

[finzi]

23 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

That’s very helpful, thank you so much! I played around with mine, and when held almost perpendicular to the paper, the pen produces a line which is closer to my expectations of the M nib. There are pens from other brands which I own in multiple widths and none of those vary quite so much from one size to the other as the Sailor nibs. It’s be an interesting experience. Hey ho, we love and learn! Thank you. ❤️

 

 

20 minutes ago, Lithium466 said:

I can't help you on the M sized nib subject, but out of a sample of 2 MF nibs (21K in medium and large size), I was both times surprised (displeased actually) by the "larger than I thought" increase in line width, compared to Sailor F nibs I have to compare.

I was disappointed, I admit. I think I’ll stick to MF with my next purchases. 

[Number99]

Official Sailor video showing the difference in line widths of standard nibs like Professional Gear and Profit etc. Following the flow of discussion in this thread, stop the video at about 1 minute 55 seconds and compare the line widths. Please note that the letters, pressure, stroke speed, and angle of writing are different from the Roman alphabet.

https://youtu.be/FRoGnuuBLs8?feature=shared

 

 

[Penguincollector]

  I can look through my papers tonight and see if I can find and compare writing samples from my MF PGS and my M PGS mini. 

[finzi]

4 hours ago, Number99 said:

Please note that the letters, pressure, stroke speed, and angle of writing are different from the Roman alphabet.

https://youtu.be/FRoGnuuBLs8?feature=shared

 

 

Thanks for this. Interesting video, particularly because of the different angle. 
 

4 minutes ago, Penguincollector said:

  I can look through my papers tonight and see if I can find and compare writing samples from my MF PGS and my M PGS mini. 

Thank you!

[A Smug Dill]

11 hours ago, finzi said:

There are pens from other brands which I own in multiple widths and none of those vary quite so much from one size to the other as the Sailor nibs.

 

Yet there are pens from other brands where there is a lot of variance even between nibs of the same width grade from the particular manufacturer, in my experience.

 

 

[Penguincollector]

Here’s a side by side picture of how these particular M and MF pens write. I hold my pens more upright than most people in the West.

[finzi]

I’m feeling daring: I’m going to experiment with one of my PG Slim Mini MF nibs, try to make it a little wetter using some brass strips. If I ruin the nib, I won’t be heartbroken, so I’m throwing caution to the wind. I’m going to try going between the tines and will read up about going between the nib and feed. For now, I’ll just try the tines and see what happens! I’m interested to see what (if any) difference it makes. I have no great expectations about line width, just curious about a wetter flow, I’m content to try it and see what happens. 

[A Smug Dill]

10 hours ago, finzi said:

I have no great expectations about line width, just curious about a wetter flow, I’m content to try it and see what happens. 

 

Why risk the pen itself by making physical alterations to it, when you can experiment with wetter flow either by using a wetter-flowing ink, or adding a droplet of Kodak Photo-flo or White Lightning to the ink you want to use (but noting that it effectively changes the ink from the original)?

[finzi]

4 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Why risk the pen itself by making physical alterations to it, when you can experiment with wetter flow either by using a wetter-flowing ink, or adding a droplet of Kodak Photo-flo or White Lightning to the ink you want to use (but noting that it effectively changes the ink from the original)?

💯 I tried this yesterday, dipped a pin into some washing up liquid and then into the ink cartridge. It gave me the results I wanted, so brass shim is the next step. 🤞🏻 I have half a dozen cheap nibs that I can use for practise.  

[Dillo]

10 hours ago, finzi said:

💯 I tried this yesterday, dipped a pin into some washing up liquid and then into the ink cartridge. It gave me the results I wanted, so brass shim is the next step. 🤞🏻 I have half a dozen cheap nibs that I can use for practise.  

 

For most, I recommend using plastic or your fingers instead. Just adjust the tine gap. Don't mess with the gap between the nib and feed.

[finzi]

22 minutes ago, Dillo said:

 

For most, I recommend using plastic or your fingers instead. Just adjust the tine gap. Don't mess with the gap between the nib and feed.

Thank you. I tried my fingernails but they’re too thick to get into the existing gap, I can’t find any plastic thin and rigid enough. I’ll make sure to only tinker with the tines and not try to adjust the gap between the feed and the nib.