Diamine Failing Upwards and Robert - are they the same thing?

[dd99]

I just got some new inks, one from Art from the Heart produced for them by Diamine ink, called "Failing Upwards". I also in another parcel got a bottle of an ink, again produced by Diamine, but this time for Cult Pens, called "Robert". When I swatched them they looked exactly the same. Does anyone else have experience of these? I feel a bit cheated as you would expect an exclusive ink to be just that.

Edited May 24 by dd99

[dragondazd]

Falling looks slightly bluer in these pictures? I probably wouldn't have bought both unless I really liked that color. I do like purple and have purple inks that are pretty similar on the page.

 

Try putting a drop of each on paper towels and see if you get a different pattern.

[dd99]

Thank you, I didn't realise that they were so similar or I wouldn't have bought the Failing Upwards ink. The photo makes them look a little different but to the eye they are identical. I will try the paper towel test and report back. I certainly won't fall for the "exclusive" ink sales talk again.

Edited Thursday at 02:33 PM by dd99

[AceNinja]

not related to the ink comparison, but, what paper are you using?  the letters are extra crisp!  its so crips I feel like even an expensive LCD couldn't produce a line so crisp.  This is a weird way of saying because I viewed through a computer monitor anyway.  But the point is I want to describe the super crips looking lines and letters.

[dd99]

31 minutes ago, AceNinja said:

not related to the ink comparison, but, what paper are you using?  the letters are extra crisp!  its so crips I feel like even an expensive LCD couldn't produce a line so crisp.  This is a weird way of saying because I viewed through a computer monitor anyway.  But the point is I want to describe the super crips looking lines and letters.

It's one I just got and was trying out, it's lovely paper, very smooth. Iroful Sakae 75gsm

[dd99]

13 hours ago, dragondazd said:

Falling looks slightly bluer in these pictures? I probably wouldn't have bought both unless I really liked that color. I do like purple and have purple inks that are pretty similar on the page.

 

Try putting a drop of each on paper towels and see if you get a different pattern.

I'm currently waiting for the tests to dry (I did a chromatography test with water) but so far they look identical. Interestingly Cult Pens (whose ink was produced first as far as I know) said that that they would be happy to accept a return, whereas AFTH denied all knowledge of Cult Pens "Robert" ink and basically said that I should refer to their online swatches when choosing inks, which I obviously had done. It just confirms what most of us already know, that images on the computer screen are unreliable when comparing colours. Hmmmm.

[dd99]

Well I think that they are exactly the same ink, I would be interested to hear your views. Here are a couple of chromatography tests on paper.

[Lithium466]

I guess Diamine can only make so many versions of an ink. Are the ink bottles any different (like Akkerman inks for ex) ?

[dd99]

The only difference is the labels. Art from the Heart said "Our exclusive inks are designed with Diamine over a number of months. Samples are sent, samples are discussed,  samples are tweaked & tweaked until they look exactly like I would like them to look. A lot of time and effort goes into the getting an ink to look and work just how we want it to.

Before your email I had not heard of Cult Pens Robert ink and I can see why you think they are similar. " also "Failing upwards also has yellow/golden sheen, where looking a Robert it's more of a green sheen overall." Whereas they both have a greenish yellow sheen in reality. 

[TSherbs]

The similarity could be coincidence, and maybe Diamine just keeps making tweeks until a shop says, "That's the one." If two shops end up selecting the same ink formula (I suppose rare chance), then should Diamine say, "No, that one is taken?" Or, "No, that one is the formula for "Writer's Blood" (or whatever)? 

 

I actually thought that your pictures showed the inks to be slightly different. 

 

But I understand the disappointment: you expected something different. Yeah, there are so amny many inks available these days that "exclusive" probably does not mean "truly unique to the naked eye from all other inks." 

[dd99]

Yes it would be nice if Diamine kept track of their exclusive inks. It is difficult to get photos to show the way these inks looks in real life. Here's another couple of swatches, I tried to get the photos head on. Top blob or bottom blob, A or B, which is which? 

Edited Thursday at 02:35 PM by dd99

[TSherbs]

ink Rorschach tests! 

[dd99]

🤣🤣🤣

[dragondazd]

I think that if you wanted a purply red with maximum sheen, you will likely end up choosing the same mix. Given how diamine works with reddit on choosing an ink color, I can totally imagine two companies coming to the same conclusion by accident. Also cult pens has a LOT of exclusives with diamine.

 

I would return the cult pens and prefer their business going forward. Or keep both and make more art with a preference for cult pens going forward.

 

Thank you for taking one for the team.

[XYZZY]

9 hours ago, dd99 said:

It's one I just got and was trying out, it's lovely paper, very smooth. Iroful Sakae 75gsm

 

That looks really nice.  I've been trying to find out who makes this, but all I can get is "Sakae TP", which isn't a paper manufacturer.

[XYZZY]

The chromatography picture from @dd99 looks like they are both using a single dye, and I'll guess that it's probably the same dye.  At that point it's easy to make the recipe different but have an unnoticeable difference on paper.   Maybe one has 1% more dye than the other?  How would you know without lab equipment? Not to mention that the label is part of the product, so they're easily different enough for the lawyers to argue that they are unique.

 

Regardless, they both look really nice!

[dd99]

 

21 minutes ago, XYZZY said:

 

That looks really nice.  I've been trying to find out who makes this, but all I can get is "Sakae TP", which isn't a paper manufacturer.

I  thought that Sakae Technical Paper were the manufacturers but I am not that familiar with Japanese paper companies.

[XYZZY]

23 minutes ago, dd99 said:

 

I  thought that Sakae Technical Paper were the manufacturers but I am not that familiar with Japanese paper companies.

They are not the paper mill that produces the paper.  They buy paper, maybe they cut it to size, and they put it in a wrapper with a label and their UPC code and have good relationships with retailers/distributors.  So for the "product", the thing with a UPC code you buy form a store, they are in a sense a "manufacturer".

 

But they do not have a paper mill.  The mill is where pulp is turned into paper.

 

Sakae TP used to sell Tomoe River paper, which was made by a large company called Tomoegawa.  They now sell Tomoe River paper made by the company Sanzen.

 

Note that there can be a middle ground:  whereas Sakae TP just used "normal" Tomoe River paper, some companies will be very involved with the paper's formulation such that you're not going to get that exact product anywhere else.  For example, HP does not have a paper mill, so don't make paper, but they are extremely involved in the paper and specify exactly what they want from the mills they buy it from.  At this moment I have no idea if Sakae TP is buying some mill's standard product or if they have spec'd out a precise formulation unique to themselves.  I assume the former, but only because of their established products based on Tomoe River.

 

As for my hunt for "who makes the paper":  This looks like excellent paper, but I would like to buy some in a notebook, and would hope that various notebook companies could get access to it.  Much the same way many notebook makers use Tomoe River and other respected papers.

[dd99]

6 minutes ago, XYZZY said:

They are not the paper mill that produces the paper.  They buy paper, maybe they cut it to size, and they put it in a wrapper with a label and their UPC code and have good relationships with retailers/distributors.  So for the "product", the thing with a UPC code you buy form a store, they are in a sense a "manufacturer".

 

But they do not have a paper mill.  The mill is where pulp is turned into paper.

 

Sakae TP used to sell Tomoe River paper, which was made by a large company called Tomoegawa.  They now sell Tomoe River paper made by the company Sanzen.

 

Note that there can be a middle ground:  whereas Sakae TP just used "normal" Tomoe River paper, some companies will be very involved with the paper's formulation such that you're not going to get that exact product anywhere else.  For example, HP does not have a paper mill, so don't make paper, but they are extremely involved in the paper and specify exactly what they want from the mills they buy it from.  At this moment I have no idea if Sakae TP is buying some mill's standard product or if they have spec'd out a precise formulation unique to themselves.  I assume the former, but only because of their established products based on Tomoe River.

 

As for my hunt for "who makes the paper":  This looks like excellent paper, but I would like to buy some in a notebook, and would hope that various notebook companies could get access to it.  Much the same way many notebook makers use Tomoe River and other respected papers.

I understand the paper making process but I am only familiar with mills in the UK. I did see a mention in another forum where someone was comparing the Iroful paper to Yamomoto Cosmo Air Light paper but whether there is any connection I have no idea. 

I bought plain sheets of the Iroful paper with the intention of making a sketchbook with it. I bind my own books. I can make them exactly how I want them and I enjoy the process too. I sometimes make up books with signatures of different papers. I'm really more into the art side of things, rather than journalling, although I play with lettering occasionally.

[A Smug Dill]

16 hours ago, dd99 said:

Yes it would be nice if Diamine kept track of their exclusive inks.

 

I'm sure the company does, both in terms of having a record of the technical formulation for each ink it makes, and on the customer management front (in the sense that Cult Pens and Art from the Heart are Diamine's corporate customers which had commissioned the production of store-exclusive and/or co-branded inks).

 

But I don't see an “exclusive ink” product as promising or implying that its formula is unique in the fountain pen (ink) market. It just means no-one else sells that product. Cult Pens does not sell Failing Upwards ink, and Art from the Heart does not sell Iridescink Robert ink; and, if anything, it would be Cult Pens that should be most upset if consumers are able to buy Iridescink Robert from anyone else. The end-consumer who bought from either Cult Pens or AftH knows what the inks they order would look like, on account of the retailers' descriptions and swatches on their respective websites.

 

It is not incumbent on, or rightly up to, Diamine to disclose to consumers in the market that this ink and that ink — effectively products respectively owned by the retailers that commissioned the production, and over which they have exclusive rights — are 99% similar (or even 100% identical) in formulation. Furthermore, if I — as a private individual, or as executive of an organisation — engage Diamine to produce an A Smug Dill exclusive ink with certain characteristics, or even specified down to chemical composition or formulation, would Diamine be obliged to or entitled to inform me that there's already an ink exactly like that out there? If I requested the production of such an ink, and Diamine tells me that it would be identical to Cult Pens's Iridescink Christine, then effectively it would be disclosing to me the technical formulation of Cult Pens's product which may be in-confidence information between Cult Pens and Diamine as customer-supplier, to which I'm not entitled to know. Whether Diamine is obliged not to accept commissions for an exclusive ink product not in the brand's own regular catalogue, that would be technically identical to Iridescink Christine, would be a matter of the terms of the commercial agreement between Cult Pens and Diamine.

 

I'm a consumer, and I can understand consumer disappointments and upsets; but whether something is right or wrong, proper or improper, in terms of Diamine's business dealings with its corporate customers must not be judged by whether a retail customer feels he/she has been tricked into taking a misstep that would have been avoided if he/she was better informed by Diamine, which is inherently standing at the best vantage point to see and know everything.