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A Special English P51


mitto

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I have never ever seen a UK made P51 with the threaded 'press 6 times' filler shroud and as everybody beleived, I too was of the opinion that the English P51s came only with the push fit 'press 4 times' filler shroud with no mention of any specific ink usage and also with no mention of country of origin (on the filler shroude).

This belief was also supported by the fact that production of P51s started in Newhaven, UK in 1950 when the use of threaded 'press 6 times' filler was already discontinued in 1949.

But I was surprised to find a English made P51 - in a lot of pens purchased on eBay, UK - date coded first quarter, 1950, with the threaded 'press 6 times' filler shroud in prisine condition. The '6 times' threaded shroud is typical English production (and not a replacement) because it has all the other charactristics of filler shrouds on English made P51s ie 1) no mention of country of origin and 2) no instructions whatsoever on usage of any specific ink - neither Superchrome nor Parker. .

As can be seen the Newhaven factory made single pen box is also in prisine condition. But I am not sure if the box is correct for the pen. To me it looks a production that is a bit later than the timeline of the pen. 

The sterling silver breather tube in the pen was almost in perfect condition and it needed no more than a little polishing. I believe the pen was used just once or twice and then cleaned carefully and placed in the box. 

The long arrow clip with the TAPERING feathers is also a UK specific production used with the first year English pens. 

Rest in pictures. 👇

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Khan M. Ilyas

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Hi Mitto,

 

Pure speculation on my part but as with the Dark Burgundy barrels of some early English Aerometric Mk 1s I wonder if the extremely interesting imprint on the filler of your pen might have something to do with production start-up components being provided by the parent company in Janesville?  I have no idea if that was the case but it struck me as a possible explanation for the discrepancy.

 

As for your pen case, it is later than 1958 (when the halo logo was introduced) and identical to cases that many of my Newhaven P61s and some P51 Aerometric Mk 2s came with so mid-1960s to early-1970s?  Certainly not 1950, that's for sure. 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Sheptonian said:

Hi Mitto,

 

Pure speculation on my part but as with the Dark Burgundy barrels of some early English Aerometric Mk 1s I wonder if the extremely interesting imprint on the filler of your pen might have something to do with production start-up components being provided by the parent company in Janesville?  I have no idea if that was the case but it struck me as a possible explanation for the discrepancy.

 

As for your pen case, it is later than 1958 (when the halo logo was introduced) and identical to cases that many of my Newhaven P61s and some P51 Aerometric Mk 2s came with so mid-1960s to early-1970s?  Certainly not 1950, that's for sure. 

 

 

Agree with what you said about the case. But the threaded "press 6 times' filler shroud does seem to be made in Newhaven factory. As had it been provided by the parent company in Janesville, it would have had the full imprint as on the Janesville produced 6 times filler shroud. That is:

After 

" PARKER 51 "

and 

To Fill 

Press Ribbed Bar

Firmly 6 Times", 

 

It would have had the remaining imprint of four more lines

ie... 

 

"Use Dry Writing

 

Superchrome ink

 

The Parker Pen Co

 

Made In USA" 

 

Like in the the below pictures. 

IMG_20230513_212633.jpg

IMG_20230513_212657.jpg

IMG_20230513_212724.jpg

IMG_20230513_212748.jpg

Khan M. Ilyas

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Unless somebody on here actually knows the answer (and given the passage of time the number of people with first-hand knowledge will be diminishing) I suppose we will be left fascinated by the anomaly but none the wiser about the root cause...

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As mentioned in the other thread I have a pen with a similar short '6 times' imprint on the filler. The imprint says "PARKER 51    TO FILL PRESS RIBBED BAR FIRMLY 6 TIMES", and nothing more:

 

1.thumb.jpg.a5298cd8631f770c656d6170ac06be86.jpg2.thumb.jpg.5f29bdebb3e7e5fdc514f5cb39ce1bbb.jpg

 

Unfortunately there is no imprint (not even the slightest trace) on the barrel. I have not removed the section yet so I have no idea about the imprint on the nib.

 

The color of the pen is dark burgundy with a gold filled cap. In the other thread I mentioned that the cap has the Parker halo logo but I was wrong about that, there is no halo logo on this cap. The cap has the English 'R Gold' imprint and an early long clip (the regular type, not the English 'tapered feather' clip). The cap also has a '51' imprint, which can also be found on some of the late 1940s English P51 Vacumatic gold filled caps. So all in all the cap might be correct for an early English P51 Aerometric.

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Thank you joss.

 

The imprint on the filler shroud of my pen is the same. That is the shortened one (like on yours). 

I am sure both our pens are pure Newhaven, England productions. 

Khan M. Ilyas

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I agree that both pens are likely made in Newhaven. Upon checking my pen database I noticed that I do have an additional English P51 Aero with the '6 times' filler, this one is in Grey (I guess Navy) with a Lustraloy cap (with straight feather clip and "Parker" imprint but no imprint as to country of manufacture) and without date code on the barrel:

 

Parker51AeroGreyEngland6timesfiller.thumb.jpg.94b83b47896772ba144cb74d1b166f33.jpg

 

What was the ultimate production date of the P51 with '6 times' filler in the USA? From my pens I deduce that it must have been at least 2nd Q 1950. So the date code of 1st Q 1950 on your English '6 times' P51 Aero does make sense.

 

What would be earliest date code on an English P51 Aero with the '4 times' filler?

 

 

Edited by joss
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If it's any help the oldest Newhaven P51 Aero that I have owned was 1950 Q4. It had a '4 times' filler.

 

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5 hours ago, joss said:

I agree that both pens are likely made in Newhaven. Upon checking my pen database I noticed that I do have an additional English P51 Aero with the '6 times' filler, this one is in Grey (I guess Navy) with a Lustraloy cap (with straight feather clip and "Parker" imprint but no imprint as to country of manufacture) and without date code on the barrel. I will try to dig that pen out this evening.

 

What was the ultimate production date of the P51 with '6 times' filler in the USA? From my pens I deduce that it must have been at least 2nd Q 1950. So the date code of 1st Q 1950 on your English '6 times' P51 Aero does make sense.

 

What would be earliest date code on an English P51 Aero with the '4 times' filler?

 

 

 

Apparently the '6 times' filler was only on Q1, 1950 English pens. I have Q2, 1950 English pens and all have '4 times' fillers. But some of Q2 English pens, though having '4 time fillers, have non recessed hoods (no O ring) and non recessed barrel and connector threads like on' 6 times' filler pens. 

 

As per my knowledge, In USA the '6 times' filler pens were discontuned in Q4, 1949. The 1950 onward pens came with '4 times' push fit filler shrouds. 

 

Khan M. Ilyas

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Thank you for the info Mitto and Sheptonian, these details are poorly documented. The transition from '6 times' to '4 times' on the Newhaven P51 Aero seems to have happened circa 2ndQ of 1950 then. 

 

Was the same true for the USA? Two of my USA-made '6 times' filler pens have a date code for 2ndQ 1950 (1x Standard India Black and 1x Demi Cocoa). What is the earliest date of a USA made P51 Aero with the '4 times' filler?

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Hello again.  

 

My oldest US P51 Aero is a Classic Plum from 1948 Q4 which has the '6 times' filler. The youngest of mine with the '6 Times' filler is a Custom Forest Green dated 1949 Q4, all of which ties in with what Mitto has said above, as does my next-oldest Janesville example, a Flighter from 1951 Q2, which is '4 times'.

 

At the other end of the scale I have a Newhaven Classic Burgundy Aero Mk3 with a date code for 1981 Q2..

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On 5/16/2023 at 2:12 AM, joss said:

Thank you for the info Mitto and Sheptonian, these details are poorly documented. The transition from '6 times' to '4 times' on the Newhaven P51 Aero seems to have happened circa 2ndQ of 1950 then. 

 

Was the same true for the USA? Two of my USA-made '6 times' filler pens have a date code for 2ndQ 1950 (1x Standard India Black and 1x Demi Cocoa). What is the earliest date of a USA made P51 Aero with the '4 times' filler?

 

joss as I said above the '6 times' pens were discontinued in Q4, 1949 in USA. I am afraid you have replacement barrels (of Q2, 1950) on your two Janesville '6 times' pens. There was no '6 times' filler US production pen in 1950. 

Regards. 

Khan M. Ilyas

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12 hours ago, mitto said:

 

joss as I said above the '6 times' pens were discontinued in Q4, 1949 in USA. I am afraid you have replacement barrels (of Q2, 1950) on your two Janesville '6 times' pens. There was no '6 times' filler US production pen in 1950.

 

Mitto, I know what you said but is it therefore undisputable? I just found a second Cocoa Demi in my collection with a 6 times filler and a 1950 date code. David Nishimura sells a Forest Green Demi with 1950 date code and a 6 times filler and this FPN thread discusses one in Grey. Do all these pens have replacement barrels? Possibly. What is the source of your statement that there was no '6 times' filler US production in 1950?

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Nothing is undisputable. But some facts are well documented. 

 

Here is what Ernesto Soler says:

IMG_20230518_002347.thumb.jpg.8d364f5befe299fa8456c1c37c1fbe63.jpg

Khan M. Ilyas

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56 minutes ago, joss said:

 

Mitto, I know what you said but is it therefore undisputable? I just found a second Cocoa Demi in my collection with a 6 times filler and a 1950 date code. David Nishimura sells a Forest Green Demi with 1950 date code and a 6 times filler and this FPN thread discusses one in Grey. Do all these pens have replacement barrels? Possibly. What is the source of your statement that there was no '6 times' filler US production in 1950?

 Now please tell me have you ever seen a '6 times' filler in 'brushed stainless steel'? 

Khan M. Ilyas

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On 5/17/2023 at 9:30 PM, mitto said:

 Now please tell me have you ever seen a '6 times' filler in 'brushed stainless steel'? 

 

Mitto, I think that that is not the point because we were discussing pens here that all have the chrome plated filler sleeve. The point rather is whether a '6 times' filler sleeve in a Parker 51 Aerometric with a 1950 date code on the barrel is an essentially wrong combination, eg not factory original, and that the barrel of such pen must be a replacement. I read everywhere that Parker never wasted materials. This assumption is also repeated in the Parker 51 book where changes in the filler sleeve and imprints are discussed and where it is affirmed that 'many pens used some new components alongside older ones which were left over, explaining why so many subtle differences of the pen exist' (quoted from page 58). 

 

In this respect it may, or may not, be of significance to note that the majority of the above cited (USA Janesville) 1950 Parker 51 pens with '6 times' filler seem to be the Demi version. These are more scarce than the standard size P51 but they also had the unique short size '6 times' filler in 1948-49. I agree that such a filler is likely not correct for a mid 1950s or later Parker 51 but can we exclude the possibility that the Parker factory installed a '6 times' filler sleeve in a Parker 51, Demi or Standard, in the course of the year 1950? Or that Parker USA even shipped some of their old stock fillers to England where they ended up in the earliest Newhaven P51 Aerometric, as per your observation (Q1 1950)? Please note that the three Newhaven 6 times filler sleeves that were identified in this thread all have the chrome plated and not the brushed stainless sleeve.

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11 hours ago, joss said:

 

Mitto, I think that that is not the point because we were discussing pens here that all have the chrome plated filler sleeve. The point rather is whether a '6 times' filler sleeve in a Parker 51 Aerometric with a 1950 date code on the barrel is an essentially wrong combination, eg not factory original, and that the barrel of such pen must be a replacement. I read everywhere that Parker never wasted materials. This assumption is also repeated in the Parker 51 book where changes in the filler sleeve and imprints are discussed and where it is affirmed that 'many pens used some new components alongside older ones which were left over, explaining why so many subtle differences of the pen exist' (quoted from page 58). 

 

In this respect it may, or may not, be of significance to note that the majority of the above cited (USA Janesville) 1950 Parker 51 pens with '6 times' filler seem to be the Demi version. These are more scarce than the standard size P51 but they also had the unique short size '6 times' filler in 1948-49. I agree that such a filler is likely not correct for a mid 1950s or later Parker 51 but can we exclude the possibility that the Parker factory installed a '6 times' filler sleeve in a Parker 51, Demi or Standard, in the course of the year 1950? Or that Parker USA even shipped some of their old stock fillers to England where they ended up in the earliest Newhaven P51 Aerometric, as per your observation (Q1 1950)? Please note that the three Newhaven 6 times filler sleeves that were identified in this thread all have the chrome plated and not the brushed stainless sleeve.

I find myself speechless and in no mood to further argue. I would just say 'you are right'. 😎

Khan M. Ilyas

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MItto & Joss,   It is always an education to read the knowledgeable comments from both you gentlemen. Thank you both for enlightening us about one of the greatest models in all of writing instruments history.  Enjoy your weekend. Best wishes, Barry

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