Desperately seeking... replacement for Montblanc Blue-Black

[gauge_boson]

Hello all 😀

 

About 30 years ago I treated myself to a Montblanc 146 and used plain black Montblanc ink for years in it. Then, about 15 years ago, while at a conference, the person sitting next to me accidentally knocked over his glass of water and pages of my handwritten notes were reduced to an ugly stain on the white tablecloth; I vowed to invest in some ink that was more water-resistant.

 

I eventually bought, a few years on, a bottle of Montblanc Midnight Blue that had replaced the old Blue-Black and my world changed... not only was it completely smudge and water resistant when dry, but it was a joy to write with on practically any paper; it was so well-behaved that I found myself writing on virtually anything with it... I even signed those slightly glossy hotel cards with it (the thing you have to show when ordering drinks at the bar) and it was even smudge-proof on those! I suppose the only thing I could find fault with was that I really liked 'black' and this was a bit wishy-washy, but I did not care because it was perfect in every other way and it revolutionised my fountain pen experience.

 

However, this love story had a sad ending... Montblanc had reformulated their Midnight Blue when I came to replace the bottle and it was no longer permanant! I tried the new Permanent Black which had received rave reviews, but I was really disappointed because it was nowhere near as well-behaved as the old Midnight Blue and it smudged really badly when dry; indeed, when writing in my Clairefontaine 90gsm notebooks, I had to place loose-leaf paper between the recently-written pages to stop the dry ink acting like carbon paper and smudging all over the page caused by the slight pressure of me writing on the other side of the paper. It was a disaster!

 

I even thought that there was something wrong with my batch of ink, but another fresh bottle was just as bad. As a test, I ran a sheet of paper under the tap and found that the top [thick!) layer of ink flowed off leaving a permanent [fainter] line on the paper; that proved it was water-proof, but, unlike the old Midnight Blue, I had that top [carbon-like] layer causing me all the woes.

 

Last year, while researching this problem, I found someone else in this very forum with a similar problem, and their solution was to dilute 4 parts ink to 1 water; I tried it and the results were very much improved! Not only was the diluted permanent black far more resistant to smudging, but it was also better behaved and less prone to feathering and bleed-through.

 

Whilst I am very pleased with the results of diluted Montblanc permanent black, I would go back to the old Midnight Blue in a heartbeat if Montblanc started making it again; looking back at my old journals today, I could not fail to compare how pristine the pages were compared to the [even now] slightly smudgy results with the diluted permanent black.

 

I have tried quite a few of the so-called 'bullet proof' inks (Noodler's et al), but nothing comes close to my old Montblanc Midnight Blue.

 

Can anyone suggest an ink that will get me back to where I was with the old Midnight Blue without having to buy old stock or mix/water something else down?

[txomsy]

I do use Rohrer and Klingner Salix. That is what I switched to when I finished my very old bottle of Montblanc Blue-Black (the antecessor of Midnight Blue).

 

But there are many blue-blacks around. ESSRI is a nice one and it is my understanding it has a Diamine counterpart (if not made by Diamine directly), Pilot blue-black is also well known and reputed. And many, many more.

[A Smug Dill]

For near-waterproofness, Platinum Carbon Black is always Number One to me; but if a business-appropriate colour other than plain black is desired, I'd always suggest Sailor Seiboku (and Souboku).

 

You could look at the Rohrer & Klingner Dokumentus and De Atramentis Documenten-Tinten product lines. I haven't used them myself, though; my first bottle of De Atramentis Document Ink was only dispatched this morning, and will take maybe two weeks to get here. In any case, I didn't order the blue-black one, and from what I read, different colours in that series behave rather differently from each other.

[arcfide]

There are many options for water resistant or water proof inks. However, if what you're after is that uniquely crisp, clean, and well-behaved experience of old Montblanc Blue Black, then you'll need to specifically look for Blue Black Iron Gall inks. Other inks can deliver the water resistance, but often at a cost of smudging (which can be an issue with pigmented inks, though not all), or behavior on the page (such as Bulletproof inks or in some cases, Pilot's Blue Black). Iron Gall inks tend to have a uniquely dry character with very crisp lines and basically no smudging at all after dry, though there can be run off when wetted. 

 

If you're okay with various colors, then there are a wide range of excellent iron gall inks from which to choose. If you really want the darker, richer blue of MB Blue Black, then you're more limited, and you may need to stick with something like the Pigmented Seboku or Souboku line from Sailor, if the limited IG options don't suit you. However, i can recommend Diamine Registrar's, ESSRI, Platinum Blue Black (indeed, all of Platinum's Classic Ink line), Lamy Crystal Benitoite, R&K Salix and Scabiosa, and KWZ IG Blue Black as good options to look at. I suspect that KWZ Blue Black might be closest based on what I remember, but my personal favorite is probably Platinum Blue Black. 

[Mercian]

7 hours ago, gauge_boson said:

Can anyone suggest an ink that will get me back to where I was with the old Midnight Blue without having to buy old stock or mix/water something else down?

The old - much lamented - Mb ‘Midnight Blue’ was an iron-gall blue-black.

In 2014 member @Jared started a thread in which he compared a few iron-gall blue-blacks for colour/appearance and water-resistance.

The inks he compared were:

ESS Registrars’ Ink (the one recommended by HMG as ‘permanent black’ for use by Registrars, Passport Offices etc);

Akkerman #10;

Montblanc i-g Midnight Blue;

Pelikan 4001 Blue black;

Rohrer & Klingner Salix.

 

Nowadays, there are other iron-gall blue-blacks available in addition to those ones. Examples are made by KWZ and Hero, and (IIRC) TWSBI.

 

You might also consider a pigment-based ink, Sailor ‘Sou Boku’, or another pigment-based ink.

@A Smug Dill created a fantastic comparison thread of the water-resistance of several of those, here.

 

If any of these inks piques your interest, I urge you to read several reviews of it!
You will want to know about its dry-time, how ‘dry’ or ‘wet’ it feels under the types of nib that you use, and whether it is prone to staining or clogging pens.

Different reviewers highlight different properties of an ink, and some use only ‘F’ nibs, or only ‘BB’ nibs, or ‘flex’ nibs, or stubs, etc.
Reading several reviews makes you more-likely to be forewarned about anything that you consider to be a ‘deal-breaker’ for you.

 

I personally have R&K Salix (it stays bluer than other i-g inks), Pelikan 4001 Blue black, ESSRI, and Sailor ‘Kiwa Guro’ carbon black.
I chose Kiwa Guro over Platinum Carbon Black because Kiwa Guro does not bleed or feather (except on pulpy ‘puzzle book’ paper). Kiwa Guro is indeed ‘very black’, but it can not provide the supple, rippling shading that i-g inks offer.

 

Slàinte,

M.

 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

No one has mentioned Pelikan 4001 blue black which is also iron gall

 as is diamine registrars

 

 i have both (and salix) and like all of them. Very very well behaved inks 

 

 

[AceNinja]

came here to also support Pelikan 4001 Blue Black.  It is iron gall but it is touted as 'lightly' iron-gall, its water resistance is also probably not as good as other IG.  But for me the advantage is I can treat just like normal ink, ink up any pen, and not worry about leaving it inked too long / clogging pen.  ie Its very low maintenance IG ink.  It's dry ink, so behaves well on most cheap paper, shades very well.  So I can use it without worry, while offering some level of water resistance.

 

Agreed with @A Smug Dill that for absolute water resistance, Platinum Carbon Black is probably the best, as seen from Goulet's water resistance ink contest/ranking video by Drew Brown.

[Mr.Rene]

Platinum Classic Blue Black Ink is a very good option...

Best regards...

[inkstainedruth]

I don't know if it's still readily available,  but I picked up a nearly full bottle of MB Permanent Blue-Black at an estate sale a while back, and like it very much (much better than MB Midnight Blue).  On the ends of the box it says "permanent - for documents" and says it contains "Super-Cleaner SC21" (if that's any help).

Beyond that, I'll second the suggestions for KWZI IG Blue-Black and Sailor Souboku, and add in KWZI IG Blue #3.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[gauge_boson]

Dear all

 

Thank you all so much for your comprehensive answers; very much appreciated.

 

I had no idea that current Pelikan Blue-Black had an IG content! I think that I will give that a try in the hope that it will be similar to the old MB Midnight Blue.

 

I am actually using my Pelikan M1000 at the moment, so I think it fair to order some Pelikan Blue-Black and give it a whirl in that pen.

 

Thank you all again; I might have to wait a couple of weeks to get the ink, but I will let you know what I think as soon as I can get some into my pen and onto paper.

 

Have a great weekend! Best wishes, Nick

[gauge_boson]

Dear all

 

I finally got my Pelikan Blue-Black ink and have been giving it a road test on many different papers.

 

I am delighted to report that it behaves almost exactly the same as my old Montblanc Midnight Blue (Iron Gall); it is very smudge-resistant, does not feather or bleed-through on even cheap copy paper and if you run a [dried] writing sample under a running tap only a small amount of blue washes off leaving very bold, readable text behind.

 

Also, whereas the old Montblanc ink used to age to a washed-out grey colour, this Pelikan example turns to a very regal-looking dark blue with great shading.

 

Thank you all again for your suggestions. Now I only hope that Pelikan does not discontinue or reformulate it like Montblanc did!

 

Best wishes

Nick aka Gauge Boson

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

Glad it worked out

[Bo Bo Olson]

I hate coming her in the ink section.

Pelikan 4001 BB....have and haven't used in ages.....same with so many of my inks.

For American's, There is a problem with 4001 BB, it is illegal in the states, in the US uses wimpy American rats for cancer tests not the strong Norway rat.

So overseas order more than just BB, and perhaps it will slide through American Customs.

 

ESSR, has one of the largest threads in FPN history...and is economical, with a plastic 110ml bottle.

Rated back then as a tad better than Diamine's Register ink.

 

Depending on the paper.** It can change from blue to a blackish color before your eyes, or take up to three days to make the change.

Richard Binder stated, that a good Blue Black will change color with in a day....in ESSR's case, before your eyes to three days.

It does have a limited live span of some three years, before the blue is lost. It becomes a black ink.

Still well worth having.

 

** Back then, I did a seventeen paper/ 17 pen with various widths and nib flex up to Easy Full Flex, test of ESSR back then. Pictures probably lost on Photobucket when they wanted money. I left. Just took 5 minutes to see if I could find the pictures and couldn't.

[khalameet]

From what I understand, you like the properties of the old Montblanc ink because it is an iron gall ink. But you also seem to like the colour black a lot, even more than a blue black?

There is also an ink, which should combine the best of both worlds for you. There is a black iron gall ink made by the German manufacturer Gutenberg. This ink is black but should have all the permanent properties you like about Montblanc's ink.

 

I don't know where you are from, but if you can order from Germany, there you go:

https://shop.wenzel-exklusiv.de/produkte/1439-8345-gutenberg-urkundentinte.html#/1441-inhaltsgröße-ml

 

I never tried the ink myself, but know that it is a good iron gall ink by various posts over at the German penexchange forum.

 

Edit: Fun fact, IIRC Gutenberg made the inks for Montblanc before 2010. So Gutenberg should even have made the old Montblanc IG Blue Black (not the IG Midnight Blue). In 2010 Montblanc changed the ink manufacturer to that secret Austrian one and Gutenberg stopped making those inks.

[Karmachanic]

If you like Pelikan 4001 BB, take a look at KWZ IG Blue #1

[inkstainedruth]

Thanks for the hint!  People in the EU keep extolling the virtues of Pelikan 4001 Blue Black, but it's not available in the US.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[TSherbs]

7 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

Thanks for the hint!  People in the EU keep extolling the virtues of Pelikan 4001 Blue Black, but it's not available in the US.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

I simply ordered mine from Germany. Bingo, bango, 1 bottle in my mailbox. 

[miwishi63]

Just found it on Amazon US and ordered a bottle.

[carlos.q]

2 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

Thanks for the hint!  People in the EU keep extolling the virtues of Pelikan 4001 Blue Black, but it's not available in the US.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

I bought mine from Amazon.uk

[Bo Bo Olson]

3 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

but it's not available in the US.

Order in with a batch of other Euro inks, (even if available in the States, and I'm pretty sure customs won't catch you.....in what sort of fountain pen using customs officer would be so low, ..... and ball point users wouldn't remember....4001 BB, does cause cancer in rats who drink it by the 50 gallon drum.

 

Just read the rest of the posts....so thank god for Amazon.

Really, before Amazon started flying in expensive E25 Japanese ink into Germany, they cost E-78 here in Germany.