Ink like minium medieval red?

[bidn]

Hello,

 

I am looking for a fp bottled ink without pigments looking the most like the minium medieval red. It is also called red lead and was intensively used on medieval manuscripts, giving the modern words "miniature" (from Latin "minium") and "rubric" (from Latin "rubra" = red, because the first letter of each paragraph was a large red letter).

 

I understand it to be a bit orange. So far I have found this to be the closest:
Montblanc Legend of Zodiac Chine Red.

 

I intend to fill a piston reservoir and not use the pen often, so I am looking for something safe (no pigments).

 

I would appreciate suggestions or useful thoughts.

 

Thank you in advance.

[mizgeorge]

Any of these might work?

 

https://inkswatch.com/choice.html?hexColorChoice=cb0c13

Or grab the hex code of the red of your choice and see what it comes up with.

 

[bidn]

14 minutes ago, mizgeorge said:

Any of these might work?

 

https://inkswatch.com/choice.html?hexColorChoice=cb0c13

Or grab the hex code of the red of your choice and see what it comes up with.

 

 

Thank you very much,

I had never heard of this very useful site!

 

According to wikipedia, the hex colour code for minium red would be:

FF4101

giving:

 

https://inkswatch.com/choice.html?hexColorChoice=FF4101

 

Unfortunately, the MB Chine Red I am currently using is not in the database of the inkswatch site (actually none of the MB Legend of Zodiac, I assume these are special editions).

[Karmachanic]

Montblanc Legend of Zodiac Chine Red https://www.ebay.com/itm/224776101524

Cult Pens has Zodiac Tiger

[yazeh]

Why not buy a few of the red samples mentioned in ink swatch and then make your choice? 

 

[inkstainedruth]

@bidnInteresting quest -- are you actually looking for an ink to do rubrifaction (such as for SCA award scrolls)?  

Having a scan of the color (or a link to some manuscript page) might help with the possible suggestions.  I'm afraid that I won't be of much help, though, because I don't tend to like orange-leaning reds in general, preferring ones that are more "center of the spectrum" -- what I call "fire engine red" (like Diamine Red)or just slightly pink-leaning ones (Noodler's Park Red, which also has the advantage of being pretty waterproof).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[yazeh]

You can also use Digital colour meter to find the RGB of a text and then convert it to hex. I did it for the manuscript on the wikipedia page got the following inks:

Noodler's Cayenne, 

Monteverde - Sweet Life - Strawberry Shortcake

Diamine Vermillion....

https://inkswatch.com/choice.html?hexColorChoice=DB2C18

[bidn]

SORRY, IMPORTANT ERROR TO CORRECT...
(I can't edit the first post, it is too late.)

 

I was mislead by the wikipedia article on minium, which states that minium red was used for the beginning of paragraphs and big capital letters... which set me off on the wrong path for my quest...

 

I managed to find reliable information in other sources including books (e.g. Eastaugh's Pigment Compendium), and wikipedia is dead wrong here (I often noticed that it is unreliable re. details), my bad for having relied upon wikipedia, all my excuses.

 

Actually it is not minium (a red based on lead) that was used for these big red capital letters and introductory sentences, but another red based instead on iron oxide, having various naming : red ochre, ruddle, sinoper, rubrica, and which was already described by latin authors Vitruvius and Pliny, I will call it rubrica.

 

I am interested in writing capital letters and heading in the traditional Western manner, so it is actually rubrica which I am actually looking after...

Also from what I had seen so far, these red letters were not so orange, but I was assuming there might have been a problem with the durability of the original colours over time, e.g. by alteration through long exposure to light (being aware that ancient pink skin painting would often not maintain its colour, and would turn greenish white in some western painting or dark brown in some Eastern icons).

 

Minium would instead be used for painting the border of the miniatures, this is why it gave the name miniature.

 

I have found on the internet an image f  17th century pallet on a sheet of paper showing different reds, incl. minium (seems decomposed, didn't survive...?) and rubrica, from Richard Waller, A catalogue of simple and mixt colours, with a specimen of each colour prefixt to its proper name, 1686:

Here a link to an image thereof:

 

https://journals.openedition.org/1718/docannexe/image/1133/img-3.png

 

 

I found an image of a modern work with a red letter using the same pigments as in the past (= pigments from the Kremer company, as explained on the site having that picture):

 

https://arteilluminandi.nl/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/IMG_4799-768x1024.jpg

 

Again I am sorry for having prematurely posted my question, while being ignorant about the issue and having relied on wikipedia. I will dig more on this (trying to find time for some book reading) and come back. 

[yazeh]

@bidn

The rubrica in the first link is dark burgundy... 

https://inkswatch.com/choice.html?hexColorChoice=893630

the 2nd link is vermilion in my eyes, and it resembles your Minium. 

https://inkswatch.com/choice.html?hexColorChoice=D3352E

 

The best way, is samples..... Also don't forget these are done with wide gothic nibs. So you won't be able to recreate that feel with a fountain pen unless you use a Stub 1.5 or even wider....

 

 

 

 

[bidn]

According to this old book, Middleton John Henry. Illuminated Manuscripts in Classical and Mediaeval Times. Cambridge UP 1892, p. 245:

 

https://archive.org/details/IlluminatedManuscriptsClassical/page/n275/mode/2up

 

Rubrica would be the same as Indian Red.

If this is correct, then this would be quite helpful for me, because I have Indian red paint, so this would give me a concrete reference for color matching under the same source of illumination.

This seems corroborated by the Pigment Compendium (which I cited above), which says that Rubrica is also the same as "Indian ochre".

 

I have ordered Michel Pastureau's reference book Rouge, Histoire d'une couleur (also available in translation in other languages, e.g.: Red: The History of a Color, Princeton UP, 2017; and the same for other colors like: Blue: The History of a Color,  Princeton UP, 2018, etc.)

 

The most useful reference seems to be:
Bernard Guineau, Glossaire des matériaux de la couleur et des termes techniques employés dans les recettes de couleurs anciennes, Brepols, 2005,
but it is too expensive for me...

[yazeh]

I used the Digital colour meter on on Pastureau's kindle version... 

It seems Diamine Ochre seems like a good option

 

https://inkswatch.com/choice.html?hexColorChoice=A45A3B

 

https://inkswatch.com/choice.html?hexColorChoice=B45A44

[Karmachanic]

18 minutes ago, yazeh said:

I used the Digital colour meter

 

Just to say that this works well if ones monitor is colour calibrated.  Otherwise there may be some drift.

[bidn]

Thank you for your advices.

 

I am still busy sorting inks and naming issues out.

The inks and even their naming were not consistently used, so this is not easy.

 

Below are the notes I have gathered so far based on various books for the main ancient red ink colours

rubrica, cinnabar - vermilion, minium, carmine (crimson), mader, realgar,
all having been used at least since antiquity (red ochre = rubrica, even since prehistory)

 

 

Rubrica 
Fe2O3 = iron oxide hematite = natural red ochre 
used since prehistoric times (cave rock painting)
many synomyms: 
sinopica, sinoper, red haematie, red iron ore, scarlet ochre, red chalk
ruddle, blus, bole, brown red
terra rosa, terra puzzoli, Venetian red, 
English Vermiliion, Spanish brown, Prussian red, Indian Ochre,, Indian red, light red, terra puzzoli, Venetian red,Persian red, 
Latin = rubrica, sinopis, sinopia 
most European languages have same looking words 
Russian = рубрика

 

 

Cinnabar, vermilion 
HgS Mercury Sulfide 
cinnabar = naturally occurring form
vermilion = synthetically, artificially produced form (but was sometimes used to designate carmine...)
first used in China several thousands of years before Christ 
used in Europe since antiquity (but sometimes called μινιον by some Greeks or minium by some Latin authors...)
used in some mss (manuscripts) instead of Rubrica
Greek = κιννάβαρi, Latin = cinnabaris
most european languages with a Latin alphabet have about the same words,
e.g. French = vermeil, vermillon; German = Zinnober
Russian = киноварь

 

Minium
red leaning towards orange
Pb2PbO4 Lead oxide, artificial
first used in China about 5 centuries before Christ 
used in Europe since antiquity
Pb2PbO4 Lead oxide (used since antiquity; artificial)
synomnym = red lead
French = minium, 
German = Mennige, Saturnrot, Pariser Rot
Italian and Spanish = minio, 
Dutch = menie, 
Rusian = сурик 

 

Carmine
C21H20O13  complex organic acid extracted from insects
first used in Persia 
used in Europe since antiquity (was sometimes confusedly called vermilion...)
very rarely used in medieval mss
synonyms:
kermes, cochineal, crimson, 
scarlet lake, purple lake, Roman lake, Florentine lake, Venetian lake... 
Greek = kokkos, kokkino, 
Latin = coccinum,  
French & Dutch = carmin, cochenille, kermes
German = Karmin, Karmesin, Cochenille, Nopalschildlaus, Kermes, Kermes, alus,  Johannisblut
Italian = cocciniglia chermes
Spanish = cochiniulla, quermes
Russian = кошенилью , Кермесы

 

Madder
anthaquinone organic components
= vegetal dye family extracted from the Rubia plant species
main components = alazarin, purpurin, morindone, rubiadin...
can produced many different colours (red, yellow, orange, purple)
used in Europe since antiquity
Latin  = rubia, varantia
French = garance
German = Krapprot, Kraplack
Dutch = kraplak, mekrap

 

Realgar
read leaning towards orange
AS2S2 arsenic sulphide
naturally occurring or synthetised (byheating orpiment)
used in Europe since antiquity (was sometimes confusedly called vermilion...)
very rarely used in medieval mss
synonyms : red orpiment, 
Latin = sandaraca
German = Schwefelarsenik, Rote Arsenblende, Rauschrot
Dutch = realgar, rosgeel
 

 

[bidn]

Now for a practical approach, it is possible to list available pigments (esp. incl. traditional ones) per colour,

at Kremer's.
But even so this is not simple, they have more than different 200 pigments for the red colour alone, 

with several variations for a given kind... : 

 

https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/shop/pigments/?c2V0TnVt=YWxs&f=W3sidHlwZSI6InByb3BlcnR5IiwiaWQiOiI2IiwidmFsdWUiOiIxNjQzNzYifV0=

 

E.g. for the red iron oxide, they have 8 different pigments with each a differing colour (I assume depending on various local origins):

https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/shop/pigments/iron-oxide-pigments/

 

The positive thing is that it may better to look at a given colour range?

 

I guess I would then order some set of chart pages, e.g. for the color red:

https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/shop/books-color-charts/990015-color-chart-kremer-pigmente-red-pigments.html

 

(BTW, this company has a set of China inks for the dip pen in various colors:

https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/shop/ready-made-colors/kremer-fine-artist-inks/180990-shellac-ink-assortment-small.html )

[amberleadavis]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:44 PM, yazeh said:

 

 

The best way, is samples..... Also don't forget these are done with wide gothic nibs. So you won't be able to recreate that feel with a fountain pen unless you use a Stub 1.5 or even wider....

 

 

 

 

 

 

YES YES YES 

Samples are your friend.  

 

Also consider a Pilot Parallel pen.  You can refill cartridges with a syringe.  Those gothic letters are done with huge dip nibs, I think the Parallel will get you the best wet line of ink.

[Karmachanic]

I'll have a bottle of Iron Oxide Red 130 B medium please.

 

https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/shop/pigments/iron-oxide-pigments/

[HDoug]

This isn't as scientific as others, but in my "journal" I've been using black (Sailor Kiwa Guro) and red (deAtramentis Document Red) to try to get that "medieval" look. Both inks are water resistant which satisfies one of my major psychological quirks. The example uses a red Lamy Safari with home sharpened 1.1mm italic nib (for the red ink), and a Conid Bulkfiller demonstrator with an italic nib (for the black ink) which I have since sharpened. 

PS I use a code for the date which is in red. I write the year on the corner of every page, then outside the margin 1-7 lists days of the week, then MMDD, then -/+ to indicate am or pm, then hhhh. So that entry is from Monday, 3/14/2022 at 6:47pm. 

[Tryingtowrite985]

On 1/31/2023 at 3:23 PM, bidn said:

Hello,

 

I am looking for a fp bottled ink without pigments looking the most like the minium medieval red. It is also called red lead and was intensively used on medieval manuscripts, giving the modern words "miniature" (from Latin "minium") and "rubric" (from Latin "rubra" = red, because the first letter of each paragraph was a large red letter).

 

I understand it to be a bit orange. So far I have found this to be the closest:
Montblanc Legend of Zodiac Chine Red.

 

I intend to fill a piston reservoir and not use the pen often, so I am looking for something safe (no pigments).

 

I would appreciate suggestions or useful thoughts.

 

Thank you in advance.

FYI, the De Atramentis document inks are mixable & dilutable.  So maybe buy a sample set of DeA document red, red gray, yellow, orange, sepia, etc.  and a few empty vials.  You can mix until you're happy.  A few ounces of the compatible dilution liquid can give you options for intensity.  I have not had problems with DeA document inks clogging pens, but if you don't use a pen regularly, clogging is always a chance.

  

I'm more familiar with watercolor pigments than ink types, and the iron oxide inks used in medieval times would have certainly been prepared from naturally occurring earth colors.  The pigment in question is likely PR 101, acccording to the generic pigment numbering system.  Problem is, PR 101 covers a huge variety of shades & characteristics.  I've got at least 6 different watercolor paints all containing PR 101 with wide variation in hue.

 

I bought a kakamori dip pen specifically for obscure colors I rarely use.  Easier to clean a dip pen than an infrequently used fountain pen.