Lamy 2000 Makrolon bleeds at its ears

[BrassRatt]

My Lamy 2000 has started leaking ink at its ears -- the tiny metal tabs that the cap clicks onto.  This occurs even when the pen is resting on my desk overnight.  I know of other Lamy 2000 pens that do this too.  I have used and not disassembled the pen for quite a while before this bleeding began. 

 

The owner of another bleeder obtained replacement o-rings from Lamy (or from Bob Nurin) but these did not stop the bleeding. 

 

Is there a known repair that works? 

 

        Steve

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, BrassRatt said:

The owner of another bleeder obtained replacement o-rings from Lamy (or from Bob Nurin) but these did not stop the bleeding. 

 

Is there a known repair that works? 

 

You see the symptom, but seem to completely ignore the part about identifying the root cause. There is no unique, one-to-one logical relationship between symptom and root cause to be assumed; and an effective repair needs to address the root cause. Otherwise, the effective way to mask the symptom is to not ink that pen at all, since there would be no symptom to observe then!

 

So, I'd think it's time to invest in investgating the root cause of the problem of which you see symptoms now. if you don't have the capabilitiy or patience to do it as the pen owner, that's fine; just send it to someone who has the skills and/or make it their business to repair pens for someone else (who can't, or can't be bothered to, do the work themselves, join the work queue and pay the price for the service, so that it doesn't need to otherwise burden yourself.

 

[Ron Z]

The 0-ring seals between the end of the threaded part of barrel and the feed. It's there to insure that the ink doesn't back up and ooze at the threads.

 

It's possible that the problem may not be that 0-ring seal.  They're very flexible and durable and I don't know that I've ever had them fail, though I wouldn't say it's impossible.    I have however seen several cases where a crack developed in the that threaded "nose" on the barrel.  That would cause ink to show up at the pressure tabs.  I suspect that in many the cause has been repeated removal of the section for cleaning, and then over tightening the section when it's reinstalled.  It might not happen right away.

 

Look at the threads, especially where they meet the body.  Use a loupe because the crack could be very fine.  If there is a crack, be prepared to send it to Lamy for a new barrel.  I have yet to find a solvent that solvent welds the plastic, or an adhesive that sticks very well - and I use some very good adhesives!

 

To Mr Dill....  People like to repair their pens, and it's their right.  It's how I got started decades ago.  One of the reasons why I'm here on FPN is to answer questions when I can, to help, and maybe to prevent a broken pen!  As Frank Dubiel  used to say, "If you're going to work on pens, you're going to break pens."  It happens to the professional pen mechanics too, no matter how long they've been repairing pens!

[A Smug Dill]

25 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

To Mr Dill....  People like to repair their pens, and it's their right.

 

I'm not in disagreement with you. I said it's time to invest in investigating the root cause, instead of just asking others for a “known repair” and/or guaranteed effective solution. If someone likes to repair their pens, then performing diagnostic procedure is the next logical step, spending whatever time, effort and resources necessary as if it was one's hobby. If that isn't what he wants to do, then he can elect to send the pen to a professional repairer instead.

 

At one time, I used to be practice lead for Problem Management looking after multi-million dollar IT outsourcing accounts. Clients get to ask straight for the solution and get rid of the symptoms. The doers who want to, or have to, actually fix a technical problem are the ones who need to look for root cause first before attempting “repair”. Whether the O.P. wants to be a client or a doer is entirely up to him.

[BrassRatt]

9 hours ago, Ron Z said:

To Mr Dill....  

Thank you, Ron.

[mtcn77]

On 12/8/2022 at 8:27 AM, BrassRatt said:

This occurs even when the pen is resting on my desk overnight.

I wanted to inquire - does it leak held up, or only when horizontally laying on the desk? I converted a Kaweco classic sport to eyedropper barrel filled and I know for a fact if I leave it on the desk, it will leak eventually. There are benefits to a leaky pen, they flow much faster. The question is how much.

[BrassRatt]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:26 AM, mtcn77 said:

I wanted to inquire - does it leak held up, or only when horizontally laying on the desk?

...

There are benefits to a leaky pen, they flow much faster. The question is how much.

The leak is a slow seepage; it takes a day or two to be manifest inside the cap and on the pen barrel.  I don't know whether it would leak when left point-up; I am cleaning it out thoroughly now in preparation for dismantling and close inspection.  

 

For this particular individual pen, faster flow would be not a benefit but a disaster.  It has been a gusher since I bought it, flooding its cursive-italic line with excess flow.  Successive nibmeisters have been unable to tame it.  I could only hope that repairing this leakage might reduce its gushiness a little. 

 

[dipper]

18 hours ago, BrassRatt said:

 I could only hope that repairing this leakage might reduce its gushiness a little. 

That is likely to be one beneficial result, if you can find and fix the source of the leak.

 

The hydrostatic pressure inside the ink chamber of a non-leaky fountain pen will normally be at a value just slightly below external atmospheric pressure. That piece of magic is worked by the pen's feed system, allowing ink to flow outwards, and air to flow inwards, in a controlled way.

But a leak anywhere behind the feed ruins both those functions! Ink can escape behind the feed, and find its way into any exits to the outside world (such as 2000 "ear tabs"). Also air can enter the ink chamber directly, at the leak point, allowing ink to gush from the nib uncontrollably.

[Glenn-SC]

On 12/8/2022 at 5:10 PM, BrassRatt said:

Thank you, Ron.

+1

IMHO it is always prudent to first ask if there are known issues with a pen (or any device) with known remedies prior to initiating an intensive investigation of possible causes, I.e. the issue may be well know and easily fixed. 

[Ron Z]

OK.  Time for another exploded view.  This is a Lamy 2000 disassembled as far as I can get it. You don't try to take the cap apart.  It doesn't come apart in a way that can be reassembled.  I will pin this picture at the top of the repair forum.

 

 

The pieces - Section.  The black ring on the section may slide off.  It does not on this pen because it was cracked and has been epoxied on.  Nib, feed, 0-ring, clutch ring, barrel.  Bottom row: Piston with seal attached, bushing, spindle, turning knob.

 

The nib slides onto the feed, the 0-ring on to the stem on the feed with the wide part UP.  Nib and feed are inserted into the section, clutch ring placed so that the tabs stick out through the openings on the section, and the assembly screwed onto the section.

 

The end of the feed goes into the tube/nose with the threads on the barrel.  The 0-ring seals the area between the barrel and the collector on the feed, and pressure seals at the back end of the feed and the front edge of the threads. The seal  keeps the ink forward towards the nib, and prevents the ink from getting  back and to the outside of the threads where it can wick up the threads and out of the cutouts for the clutch, and the barrel/section joint.  If there is a leak there, replacing the seal (not really an 0-ring) is the place to start.  If you still get ink on your fingers after replacing the seal, look for a crack where the threads meet the barrel. 

 

Make sure that the nib and feed are aligned properly and seated properly in the section before you screw the section back onto the barrel.  If you use silicone grease on this seal, top and bottom edge only.  You don't want to risk getting silicone grease on the feed. 

[BrassRatt]

Thank you, Ron!  A most helpful photo!

 

A couple of clarifying questions -- 

14 hours ago, Ron Z said:

The nib slides onto the feed, the 0-ring on to the stem on the feed with the wide part UP. 

Does this refer to the wide part of the seal/O-ring, or of the feed?  And the parts in the photo are oriented left-right; which way is UP? 

 

14 hours ago, Ron Z said:

If you use silicone grease on this seal, top and bottom edge only.

Which surfaces are top and bottom?  (I feel like Alice In Wonderland with the mushroom here.)  Does that mean left and right in the photo?  Is this meant to keep grease away from the inner surface ("hole") of the seal?  Isn't one of the seal's sealing surfaces in contact with the feed?  Should that one be kept ungreased? 

 

I'm guessing that UP refers to the situation after you have picked up one of the parts to assemble it, holding it vertically.  Still, which end is UP? 

 

Thank you again! 

 

 

[Ron Z]

One more picture should make it clear. This is with the section/shell removed.  Note that the smaller diameter of the seal meets the smaller diameter of the collector on the feed, and the larger diameter the larger nose of the barrel.  The ink flows down the middle, and the seal (not really an 0-ring) keeps the ink in the feed, and and in the front part of the nib assembly.  I assume that the seal also contacts the inside of the section.

 

The silicone grease, if any is used,  should stay on the outside of the 0-ring.  I don't use any, and don't think that Lamy does either. You don't want it to come in contact with the feed because it is hydrophobic and repels the ink.

 

[BrassRatt]

Thank you -- that's very clear. 

[BrassRatt]

update...

I disassembled the bleeding pen to clean and examine it.  The seal was rubbery and seemed undamaged. The barrel end has no cracks that I can detect under 10X magnification.  There were two mold-marks just visible on the barrel nose sealing surface; I rubbed that face on micromesh to smooth it a little. 

 

The seal was found reversed relative to Ron's instruction, with the wide end against the collector.  Also, there is a small nub on the seal's narrow end face that seems to correspond with the slot on the bottom of the collector.  

 

Possibly that nub was preventing a good seal against the barrel nose end?  

 

I have reassembled the cleaned pen (using a very sparing smear of silicone grease on the seal/barrel nose end surface only), and filled it with mild-mannered ink, and will see whether it still bleeds after a day or so. 

 

[danielfalgerho]

I have one of these bleeders, ink seeps even when the pen is stored upright. This pen has a twin brother that is totally trouble free. Once again, many thanks to Ron for making the issue clear. My seal appears to be in good shape and correctly position. I will reassemble the pen and will switch from Noodler's to Pelikan ink. Replacing the seal may be futile but, just in case, how can In get one?

Greetings and best wishes to all in the Fountain Pen Brother/Sisterhood,

[BrassRatt]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:47 PM, BrassRatt said:

I have reassembled the cleaned pen, and filled it with mild-mannered ink, and will see whether it still bleeds after a day or so. 

 

Picked up the pen today, and it has not bled yet.  Maybe ... fixed?

[dipper]

That's good news.

 

👍👍👍👍 to the photos from @Ron Z.

 

There will be an understandable worry that the pen might start seeping again in the future.

 

@BrassRatt You mentioned that the pen wrote very wet previously. Is it now writing slightly less wet? If so, that is further good evidence that you really have fixed the leak.

[BrassRatt]

1 hour ago, dipper said:

👍👍👍👍 to the photos from @Ron Z.

 

@BrassRatt You mentioned that the pen wrote very wet previously. Is it now writing slightly less wet? If so, that is further good evidence that you really have fixed the leak.

For the first two test lines I thought so, but NO, it is NOT writing any less wet. 

 

But I did not expect any change, since it has been gushing ever since purchase and nib-grinding, and had never leaked during those years.  Several folks have tried to tweak it to reduce flow without much success. It seems that the most recent (a well-known paid repairer (NOT RonZ!)) put the seal in backward. 

 

Numerous people have unhelpfully told me to use only "dry" inks, though.