Why are 1.1, 1.5, 1.9 sizes “standard”?

[HobbitLife]

Hello! As I am looking at various calligraphy fountain pen sets, the nib sizes 1.1, 1.5, and 1.9 mm seem to be by far the most common. Does anyone know why these widths in particular are “standard”? (Like, why not 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0? That seems more straightforward…)

[Frank C]

When making calligraphy letters, the ratio of the pen's width to the height and width of the letters is important, so that the letters look proportional. This article has some examples:

 

https://calligraphypen.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/stroking-the-rules/ 

 

The pen widths you mention work for commonly used letter heights. The rules are similar for typefaces as well. Wikipedia has an article on that. It will also introduce you to some of the terminology used:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typeface_anatomy 

 

If you are looking for some books on calligraphy, just ask; there are lots of good ones. 

 

[OCArt]

Great question and great answer.  The things you learn on FPN!

[HobbitLife]

@Frank C That is really helpful, thank you! I suppose the one thing that still seems odd to me though is that standard graph paper is 5mm, which would make it easy to have a standard 5 nib width letter height with two squares (10 mm) if your nib is 2.0 mm. (My calligraphy book also had me get a 2mm nib, maybe for this reason?)

 

Is the thought that with a tiny bit of pressure the line put down with a 1.9mm nib actually measures about 2.0mm, thus leading to a 5x height of 10mm? Otherwise my question about nib standards just gets transferred: why would 9.5mm (1.9 x 5) be a standard letter height rather than 10mm?

[Frank C]

Many factors affect line width, not just the width of the nib. Wetter inks will spread more on paper than drier inks. Some paper is more porous than others. Just because a pen has a 1.9mm nib, doesn't necessarily mean that the resulting line is 1.9mm. Practice calligraphy is done on lined papers; when one is making a serious work of calligraphy, it is written on plain paper. The calligrapher may make pencil lines on the paper first as a guide, but then erases them for the final presentation of the work.

 

Lots of information on calligraphy and how to learn it can be found in this topic:

 

This link is to the most recent page; it has some examples of what we are discussing. It is worth reading the entire thread. @fpupulin is a excellent calligrapher and freely shares his knowledge and techniques. He is mostly using a Montblanc 149 Calligraphy pen, it is different from the italic pens you are talking about. He demonstrates how he can use any pen to make any alphabet in this thread; these examples are truly amazing.

 

I wish you well with your fountain pen adventures. The possibilities are limitless. 

 

[dms525]

Good question. I don't know the history of how the modern calligraphy pen width decisions were made.    I can tell you that, before the cited "standard" widths used by Bock, Lamy, JoWo, et al. for their "calligraphy" nibs, the most commonly used nibs were those for dip pens and, for fountain pens - Osmiroid and Platignum in the UK and US and Reform in Germany. All of those were in 0.5 mm increments. The most popular dip pen nibs continue to be in 0.5mm multiples.

 

It should also be noted that the width specifications are for the physical width of the nib, not the width of the written line they produce. In addition, some pen vendors tune the nibs on pens they sell before shipping, and that may alter the nib width slightly. And some pen manufacturers tune the nibs they get from JoWo or Bock before shipping to their retailers. So, for example, a JoWo 14Kt gold 1.1mm stub may write substantially differently according to the brand of pen it's installed in and, even, the retailer from whom you bought it. 

 

David

[dms525]

Just for fun ....

 

 

 

David

[A Smug Dill]

On 10/14/2022 at 5:14 AM, HobbitLife said:

As I am looking at various calligraphy fountain pen sets, the nib sizes 1.1, 1.5, and 1.9 mm seem to be by far the most common. Does anyone know why these widths in particular are “standard”?

 

Not disputing that traditionally the x-height, as well as ascender and descender heights, for italic scripts are prescribed in integral multiples of ‘nib width’ as realised on the page from a particular pen-ink-paper combination, but I'll venture a different explanation and answer to your question.

 

They only seem to be “by far the most common” among fountain pens of the day, because the majority of fountain pen brands well-known to Western (i.e. European, American, and Australian) users of such don't bother with manufacturing their own nibs, but predominantly source the nibs for their pen products from either JoWo or Bock. I don't know whether either of those specialist OEM nib manufacturers allow its (corporate) customers to order italic nibs in specific widths such as 1.0mm or 1.2mm; but it certainly appear that the default options on offer (which mean the least cost to the fountain pen brands to source and supply) are 1.1mm, 1.5mm, and 1.9mm.

 

They are really no more “standard” than so-called ”size 6” or “#6” nibs that are 35mm long and fit around feeds with 6.0mm diameter in pens. 

 

On 10/14/2022 at 5:14 AM, HobbitLife said:

(Like, why not 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0?

 

The Sailor HiAce Neo calligraphy pens' three nib widths are in fact 1.0mm, 1.5mm, and 2.0mm.

 

As are that of Monteverde USA's Monza calligraphy pen sets.

 

I haven't actually measured the nib widths or line widths of my Pilot Enso Plumix (‘hand lettering‘) calligraphy pen set's F, M, and B nibs, but I know without a doubt that they are not 1.1mm, 1.5mm, and 1.9mm respectively.

 

I have no idea whether the (either vintage or more modern) Sheaffer calligraphy pen set's F, M, and B nibs are 1.1mm, 1.5mm, and 1.9mm respectively. I still have one of those somewhere from when I was a teenager decades ago.

 

So, if you indeed specifically meant calligraphy fountain pen sets, as opposed to simply being able to order single fountain pens of this brand or that with a Italic/Stub nib, I'd be keen to know which sets you have looked at to bring you to the conclusion stated in your initial post in this thread.

 

 

[Misfit]

For letter writing 1.1mm works, but 1.5mm is more challenging. I have two pen brands with 1.3mm stub nibs. Visconti and Delta made those. I’ve wondered why 1.3mm isn’t seen more often. 

[txomsy]

I think that the main reason may be simply tradition. Or rounding.

 

As for paper lining... grid squares are typically 1mm, 4mm or 5mm. Lined paper usually is found in 7, 8 or 10mm separations. Typically doubly lined paper for practice is 4mm between guide lines and about 8mm in between. And so on. Variability in paper is immense as well. So I doubt it is the reason.

 

I was consulting some old writing tutoring books yesterday. It called my attention that Yciar (~1550) explained how to cut the feather tip... unless one was using a metal pen. So, at least by the 16thC, metal pens were already common. I would bet that they would likely be cast from a mold. And since the Metric System didn't exist, I would also bet that they would be made to match the "standard" writing of the time. Usually books mentioned how many lines per sheet students should try to accommodate. But paper sizes weren't DIN either. As some countries became main purveyors of nibs (much like Jowo or Bock today), their measures might have become more common.

 

That may explain survival of some non-round Metric System measures.

 

It may also be, and this would provide a more parsimonious explanation (Ockham's Razor), that some measures have been "rounded" to account for the relatively recent appearance of stub nibs: if you have a 1mm flat tip that has two tiny round, softer corners on each side, it may convert from 1.0mm to 1.1mm, and from 0.5 to 0.6mm, or from 2.0 to 2.1mm, etc...

 

That would mean a 1.1mm stub has a 1mm contact surface with paper, and so on,

[dms525]

FYI, a JoWo 1.1 mm Stub, writing on Rhodia paper, writes a line 0.8mm wide. 

 

I remind you all that the designated width of a stub/italic nib is the physical width of the nib. The width of the line the nib writes is generally narrower than the physical nib width.  So, if the X-height of your minuscule letters is 4 to 5 nib widths, letters written with a 1.1 mm stub nib would be 2.4 - 3.0 mm high.

 

David

[txomsy]

Thanks for the correction, it seemed too logical to be true.

[dms525]

I've done some more nib width testing. FYI ...

 

Stub/Italic Nib Widths: Physical width versus written line width

 

Nib manufacturers label their Stub and italic nibs according to the nib tip’s physical width. For calligraphers, what matters is the width of the line the nib writes, because that is what determines the height of the written letters. For italic handwriting, the “X-height” of letters, that is the height of minuscules, is usually 4 or 5 pen widths. So, for example, to write text with minuscule letters 4.0 mm high, one would want to use a nib that writes a line 0.8 to 1.0 mm wide.

 

I have tested a number of popular nibs used for italic calligraphy. The Bock and JoWo nibs with the same width designations produce the same written line widths, whether they be #5 or #6 size.  My results are as follows:

 

Osmiroid
Medium	Broad	B-2	B-3	B-4	Label
0.8 mm	1.0 mm	1.5 mm	1.7 mm	2.2 mm	Written width

 

Bock/JoWo
1.1	#5 - 1.4	1.5	1.9 (F-C Music nib)	Label
0.8 mm	1.0 mm	1.2 mm	1.4 mm	Written width

 

I hope this is useful information for you.

 

David

[A Smug Dill]

On 10/14/2022 at 5:14 AM, HobbitLife said:

As I am looking at various calligraphy fountain pen sets, the nib sizes 1.1, 1.5, and 1.9 mm seem to be by far the most common.

 

I saw this set in a local bricks-and-mortar book and stationery store just yesterday:

https://www.faber-castell.com/products/GripFountainPenCalligraphySetsilver111418/201629

and the nib widths are, according to the manufacturer, 1.1, 1.4, and 1.8.

 

I'm still curious as to which calligraphy fountain pen sets you were referring.

 

[lascosas]

The Graf von Faber-Castell Tamitio set is also 1.1, 1.4 and 1.8

https://endlesspens.com/products/graf-von-faber-castell-calligraphy-set-tamitio

 

For Opus 88, Jowo makes 1.4 and 1.5 stubs and Bock makes 2.3.

https://endlesspens.com/products/opus-88-12-jowo-nib?variant=31258166788170

https://endlesspens.com/products/opus-88-jowo-nib?variant=31258162167882

https://endlesspens.com/products/opus-88-nib-part-steel-250-bock?variant=32510459904074