Help me decide between a Pilot 823 or 743

[redryder]

I want to try a bigger pilot nib and these two are priced the same. I read that the 823 needs additional maintenance besides cleaning and flushing, how difficult is that to do? 

 

Is there any downside to using a convertor in the 743? When I read reviews online, convertors seem to be deemed as "lower end" and I don't understand why? 

 

I know the 823 has higher ink capacity but that's not an advantage for me. I like changing out inks and colors often. 

[OCArt]

32 minutes ago, redryder said:

I know the 823 has higher ink capacity but that's not an advantage for me. I like changing out inks and colors often. 

The 823 is a very nice pen but if you like changing colors then it is NOT for you. It doesn't flush easily although it can be done.

[A Smug Dill]

2 minutes ago, redryder said:

When I read reviews online, convertors seem to be deemed as "lower end" and I don't understand why? 

 

At least some consumers in the Internet era surely believe that, from a ‘teardown’ perspective not infrequently taken in reviews of electronic equipment and gadgetry, if a product cost more in raw materials and distinct components — and perhaps industrial tooling — to produce, then it must inherently be more ‘premium’ and/or better value-for-money in exchange for their discretionary spending.

 

Similarly, there appears to be some consumers who feel that it is inherently ‘astute’ or ‘smart’ on their part in that capacity, and/or only ‘fair’ commercial behaviour of the manufacturers, distributors and retailers on the supply side, to put a cap on profit margins — perhaps in comparison with what those individuals themselves earn in the role of producers of goods, service providers, or employees of an industry, as opposed to other businesses' retail customers. Those sentiments of barely disguised resentment, that some other party stands to achieve ‘a better deal’ financially out of trading material inputs and work efforts for reward, can colour the perception of a product's technical and/or objective merit.

 

23 minutes ago, redryder said:

Is there any downside to using a convertor in the 743?

 

Not conceivably so in any technical sense. The ink reservoir is easier to maintain in perfect working order, and the part itself is more readily and cheaply replaceable should it fail or deteriorate over time, or gets damaged by accident. The agitator in the CON-70N should allay concerns about “air lock” in the converter hindering ink flow. Furthermore, the option of using (consumable and essentially disposable) ink cartridge shells instead of a converter is there, if one wants to use inks that may discolour or stain plastic/resin, or just stick to interior wall of the ink reservoir in a manner that requires scrubbing to remove.

 

If the higher ink capacity adds little or no value to you in the use of the pen, then the Custom 823's filling mechanism offers little more as a writing instrument functionally. Whether (however many of) someone else thinks more highly of the Custom 823 for it, and therefore ‘give’ the pen model higher resale value in the used pens market, is a different concern from using.

 

See also: 

On 5/20/2022 at 5:13 AM, XYZZY said:

The 743 is also available in an opaque dark red body.  The black body has the largest number of options for different types of nibs in the #15 size:  everything you could get on the 723, soft nibs in various widths, posting, waverly, and of course the FA.

 

[redryder]

2 hours ago, OCArt said:

The 823 is a very nice pen but if you like changing colors then it is NOT for you. It doesn't flush easily although it can be done.

 

Many thanks for that. The choice seems clear that I should get a 743 then.

 

If you don't mind a follow-up question, does a 743 SF nib write differently from a FA nib when the FA nib is not flexed? What I mean to say is, I don't always want to flex. For those situations, would a normal Fine or SF nib write smoother than a FA nib? 

 

 

[A Smug Dill]

29 minutes ago, redryder said:

does a 743 SF nib write differently from a FA nib when the FA nib is not flexed?

 

I have only used the size 10 FA nibs on (both) the Custom 742 and Custom Heritage 912, not the larger size 15 Custom nibs, and I fancy I can write with a light hand; but I've found it very difficult to not ‘flex’ the tines at all on the FA nib, and couldn't get the line width to stay perfectly consistent even if I tried. Whereas a SF nib will offer more resistance to being ‘flexed’.

 

35 minutes ago, redryder said:

I don't always want to flex. For those situations, would a normal Fine or SF nib write smoother than a FA nib? 

 

It's not that the FA nib doesn't write sufficiently smooth when ‘flexed’, but the more relevant question is, how do you want your writing output to look? If you want it to look consistent and controlled, and without deliberate swells alone the bowls and/or downstrokes, then a F nib or even SF nib would suit better. How fine do you want the lines to be, and how large or small are your minuscules and majuscules?

 

[TitoThePencilPimp]

If getting a basic F,M,B, then get the 823. Prices for 743 and 823 are roughly the same on Amazon.

 

If you want a FA, but willing to pay MSRP on the 823, then order it from TokyoQuill. This is my favorite pen, and I have a a few dozen.

 

People complain about the con 70 being hard to clean, but it literally has a built in pump you can use to expel water. Much easier than cleaning a piston pen (my favorite).

 

Amazon, Tokyoquill, or even Ebay have cheaper prices on the pilot pens.

 

 

I use my FA 823 mostly for math/scientific writing. No issues here... If you are extremely heavy handed, then it may cause an issue. But the FA is not a true flex. A bit of a semi flex, a bouncy nib but not mushy, that offers a consistent line, with a bit of flare you use a bit of pressure and have the skills.

 

 

 

[A Smug Dill]

34 minutes ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

If getting a basic F,M,B, then get the 823. Prices for 743 and 823 are roughly the same on Amazon.

 

The whole point of the O.P.'s initial post is to question whether the Pilot Custom 823 is the better pen for the same price. It isn't, not objectively and not in his/her intended usage pattern specifically. Why, then, did you ‘direct’ him/her to “get the 823”, without arguing why that model is not merely the equal of the Custom 743 but better?

 

[Olya]

8 hours ago, redryder said:

Is there any downside to using a convertor in the 743? When I read reviews online, convertors seem to be deemed as "lower end" and I don't understand why?

There is no downside, converters have more advantages than disadvatages and seeing them as "lower end" is plain simply just good old fashioned snobbery.

 

For the purpose of changing inks often, converters are better than the 823's vacuum filling system.

Also the 823 suffers from cracking issues, some think it's because some people take them apart, but others who say they've never taken them apart have had theirs crack.

 

A converter which fails (age or whyever) is easily and cheaply replaced, a built in filling system requires repair.

 

Flushing a pen, changing ink quickly and often is easier with converters than many self-filling systems (I'd say the only fast self-fillers that are quickly flushed are Pelikan's piston fillers, unscrew the nib and it's all done).

 

The 823 has never enticed me and I generally prefer cartridge/converters for all their convenience. The only self-filler I put second to c/c are piston fillers and I'd buy the CH 92 any day over the 823.

[EricTheRed]

The 823 has distinct advantages over the 743.  As mentioned earlier it has a significantly larger ink capacity.  Additionally it is much safer to travel on an aircraft with it as its vac system allows the ink to be completely cut off from the nib, so no worries with ink spills during flights. I have had two 824 heavy users for over ten years with no cracking or other problems.  The 823 is world class.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, EricTheRed said:

The 823 has distinct advantages over the 743.  As mentioned earlier it has a significantly larger ink capacity.

 

The O.P. has already acknowledged that difference and pointed out it is not an advantage in the context of his/her question.

 

On 10/4/2022 at 2:10 PM, redryder said:

I know the 823 has higher ink capacity but that's not an advantage for me.

 

Whereas I agree this could be an advantage over using a converter:

 

1 hour ago, EricTheRed said:

Additionally it is much safer to travel on an aircraft with it as its vac system allows the ink to be completely cut off from the nib, so no worries with ink spills during flights.

 

although, when I flew interstate and back last month, my cartridge-filled and converter-filled pens (along with an Opus 88 Picnic eyedropper-filled pen with a shutoff mechanism) all fared just fine. The converter was fully filled, but the cartridge was half empty; and I did actually pull out all three pens on both flights just to check, since I don't fly often. No leakage, no burping, no dripping, no pooling of ink inside the pen caps.

[Harold]

Let's be clear to avoid disappointment: the soft fine is absolutely not a flex nib. It just gives you a cushioned feel when you're writing and a little bit of "personality" to your writing, with slightly wetter/broader parts of your strokes if you aren't particularly light handed. If you want to actually flex the nib in a calligraphic manner, then the falcon nib is your only option from Pilot. I'd call the falcon nib a semi-flex nib unless you're comfortable pushing it rather hard.

[A Smug Dill]

2 minutes ago, Harold said:

If you want to actually flex the nib in a calligraphic manner, then the falcon nib is your only option from Pilot.

 

Pilot does not market any of its nibs as flex nibs. However, both the Elabo (aka Falcon) model's nibs, and the FA nibs for the Custom line, are described by Pilot as being designed for calligraphic writing. The FA nibs are expressly not suitable for users who apply heavy downward pressure when writing, while the Elabo's nibs are design to better withstand downward pressure.

[XYZZY]

15 hours ago, EricTheRed said:

 Additionally it is much safer to travel on an aircraft with it as its vac system allows the ink to be completely cut off from the nib, so no worries with ink spills during flights. 

 

I have flown several times with fountain pens and never had a leak even though none of the travel pens had any sort of shut-off.  I seem to recall that several years ago there was a thread in Fountain & Dip Pens - First Stop about flying, and almost everybody chimed in they haven't had problems, either.

 

I do, however, try to orient the pens in my backpack in a way that they'll probably be nib-up during the flight.

 

Of course I'm probably jinxing myself by posting this 🙂

[Harold]

6 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Pilot does not market any of its nibs as flex nibs. However, both the Elabo (aka Falcon) model's nibs, and the FA nibs for the Custom line, are described by Pilot as being designed for calligraphic writing. The FA nibs are expressly not suitable for users who apply heavy downward pressure when writing, while the Elabo's nibs are design to better withstand downward pressure.

Just for clarity: when I said Falcon, I meant FA. So confusing that they decided to use that name for two different nibs.

[Kgbenson]

It seems to come down to how often you like to change inks.  I went with the 743  because I have IADD (ink attention deficit disorder) and am always wishing I was using a color that is not in my pen at the time.

 

Keith

[XYZZY]

1 hour ago, Kgbenson said:

It seems to come down to how often you like to change inks.  I went with the 743  because I have IADD (ink attention deficit disorder) and am always wishing I was using a color that is not in my pen at the time.

 

Keith

 

I resemble that remark.

 

If you have some OCD that makes you need to fill the converter every time then you might want to swap the CON-70 out with the much smaller CON-40, too, so that the next ink change is that much closer 😉  I prefer the CON-70, but there are many times when I start out thinking "I'm just trying this ink, don't fill it up" and then 30 seconds later I realize I have just filled it up.🤦‍♂️

[Kgbenson]

I have thought of that - I have an extra from by resin falcon I could use, just haven't actually done it.  Procrastination.

[PeregrineFalcon]

On 10/3/2022 at 11:32 PM, redryder said:

 

Many thanks for that. The choice seems clear that I should get a 743 then.

 

If you don't mind a follow-up question, does a 743 SF nib write differently from a FA nib when the FA nib is not flexed? What I mean to say is, I don't always want to flex. For those situations, would a normal Fine or SF nib write smoother than a FA nib? 

 

 

Just chipping in, as I just got a 743 FA yesterday (for drawing purposes). 

I have a an 823 in Fine I’ve been using for about two months for writing (about the amount of time I began using fountain pens) so take this as coming from another beginner. 
 

The 823 has a steady line I would be too chicken to flex - the gold nib does give slight variation if I press harder for some reason as opposed to steel nibs. But generally it is consistent. My Sailor Pro Gear Slim (F) has a more consistent line.

 

The 743 can get as thin as can be depending on the angle and pressure I put on the nib, but the thickness of me using it for writing normally is about a European Fine. The ink I’m using is Sailor Manyo Ayame, which is a VERY watery ink.

[MuddyWaters]

The flying argument is a funny one. I write at a desk much more often than I fly. 

 

Secondly, the 823 has a metallic vaccuum system that makes the pen back heavy. So if ink capacity is not a criterion, then surely the 743 or even the 912 are suitable options. 

[georgeb]

The 823 is made of a different material than the 743.  The 743 is more noticeably plastic.