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Are there multiple cartages marketed as Standard International or am I just incredibly dim?


Zegurk
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I own both a Diplomat Magnum (bought from Goulet) and a Loushi Labyrinth (bought from Truphae), which I believed to be both standard international pens. I also bought some extra cartages and converters* from Jinhao on AliExpress and figured those would be standard international as everywhere says that Jinhao only makes standard international pens, but as it seems, the Diplomat is only compatible with the converter I got with it from Goulet and the Loushi seems to only work with the Jinhaos. What am I missing?

 

Thanks!

 

*I chose the 4mm version as it seemed to match the cartage I got from Goulet

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It's not just you.  

In my (admittedly limited) experience "International standard" isn't as "international" OR "standard" as it's made out to be.  I ran into that a couple of years ago with a pen I found in an antiques & collectibles shop, which was a Cross sub-brand called Penetia.  Turned out the "pen guy" there was actually someone from my local pen club, and he told me the pen took International Standard, and I was going "GREAT!  I can finally use the Edelstein Amethyst cartridges which were swag from the first Pelikan Hub I went to!"  Only they were the long cartridges and the barrel didn't fit over the cartridges (and using the pen without the barrel turned out to be *really* awkward).  Then I tried to get a converter (I prefer converters to cartridges), only NONE of the International Standard converters fit in the pen either -- but a Cross converter DID (don't remember if it needed the push-in type or the screw-in type....  Go figure....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

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29 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

It's not just you.  

In my (admittedly limited) experience "International standard" isn't as "international" OR "standard" as it's made out to be.  I ran into that a couple of years ago with a pen I found in an antiques & collectibles shop, which was a Cross sub-brand called Penetia.  Turned out the "pen guy" there was actually someone from my local pen club, and he told me the pen took International Standard, and I was going "GREAT!  I can finally use the Edelstein Amethyst cartridges which were swag from the first Pelikan Hub I went to!"  Only they were the long cartridges and the barrel didn't fit over the cartridges (and using the pen without the barrel turned out to be *really* awkward).  Then I tried to get a converter (I prefer converters to cartridges), only NONE of the International Standard converters fit in the pen either -- but a Cross converter DID (don't remember if it needed the push-in type or the screw-in type....  Go figure....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

Please forgive my inexperience, especially because I have no experience with Cross FPs. It seems you're saying standard short international cartridges would have fit your FP but long ones didn't. That's seems to be similar to using a long international cartridge or a converter in a Pilot VP, which wasn't designed for either.

 

If my suppositions are correct, standard international cartridges would have worked for the Cross. No affront is intended. I'm just trying to learn.

 

Thank you for any consideration,

Z

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@Zegurk Welcome to FPN.

 

“International standard”, or “Standard International”, is a contentious marketing claim, and so I sincerely appreciate your careful wording of the question.

 

In general, “international standard” only means the cartridge has an opening of 2.4mm interior diameter, and an extended lip that has a narrower exterior diameter than the rest of the cartridge body. It implies nothing else about either the geometry (including length, exterior diameter, and taper), or the ink capacity/volume, of an ink cartridge that fits the description. Then, there are (short) “international standard” cartridges, and “international standard long” cartridges.

 

The “international” part is misleading to consumers, especially in today's fountain pen market landscape.

  • None of the major Japanese fountain pen brands use that format of ink cartridge, or even just something with that bore diameter (and ignoring all other aspects of the geometry) at the opening. Pilot sells a variant of the MR product line (inclusive of MR Metropolitan, MR Animal, and MR Retro Pop) — only in the European market, if I'm not mistaken — that is “refillable with international standard ink cartridges”, and Platinum makes an Adapter ”for European size ink cartridge”.
    • Each of the Japanese Big Three fountain pen manufacturers has its own proprietary “standard” ink cartridge format. Pilot's “standard” applies to the Pilot and Namiki brands; Platinum's “standard” to Platinum and Nakaya; and Sailor's “standard” does not apply to its (discontinued) Chalana line, but all of its modern/current production models.
  • (Mainland) Chinese fountain pen manufacturers also do not use that format of ink cartridge as standard, even though unlike the Japanese brands, they tend not to each have a proprietary “standard”, but stick to one of two quasi-standard formats common in China — one of which has a 2.6mm-bore opening, and the other has a 3.4mm-bore opening.
    • Some Chinese brands make some models that use 2.6mm-bore and other models that use 3.4mm-bore; and some even have models (that specifically use Schmidt or Bock nibs) that use 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges.
  • I'm not entirely sure about Korean fountain pen brands; but I vaguely recall that Monami ink cartridges are 2.3mm-bore.
  • Aurora, being a major Italian brand, does not sell 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges or use those in its cartridge/converter-filled pen models.
  • Lamy, being a major German brand, does not sell 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges or use those in its cartridge/converter-filled pen models.
  • Parker, being a major American(?) brand, does not sell 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges or use those in its cartridge/converter-filled pen models.

So, the format falls wells short of even being a “national standard” across all fountain pen manufacture within a given country in the West, let alone an “international standard”. Mostly, the fountain pen models that use nibs of JoWo or Bock manufacture will use 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges and converters; and most ink brands that are not in themselves fountain pen brands of note sell 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges.

 

1 hour ago, Zegurk said:

I own both a Diplomat Magnum (bought from Goulet) and a Loushi Labyrinth (bought from Truphae), which I believed to be both standard international pens.

 

Luoshi is a Chinese brand. I'm pretty sure Luoshi pens (of which I have a few, but haven't used for years) come with 2.6mm-bore converters; ergo, they use 2.6mm-bore, not “international standard” 2.4mm-bore, ink cartridges.

 

1 hour ago, Zegurk said:

I also bought some extra cartages and converters* from Jinhao on AliExpress and figured those would be standard international as everywhere says that Jinhao only makes standard international pens,

 

Most Jinhao pen models (including the oft-mentioned X750, 51A, 992, etc.) take 2.6mm-bore cartridges, although some (such as the Jinhao 35) take 3.4mm-bore cartridges. I can't think of any Jinhao models offhand that use Schmidt, Bock, or JoWo nibs, and therefore I don't know any that use 2.4mm-bore cartridges.

 

As far as I know, Jinhao makes and sells (only) ink cartridges of both of those bore diameters, but not 2.4mm-bore.

 

2 hours ago, Zegurk said:

the Diplomat is only compatible with the converter I got with it from Goulet and the Loushi seems to only work with the Jinhaos. What am I missing?

 

I'm pretty sure Diplomat-branded converters are just rebranded Schmidt (K5) converters, and so your Diplomat pen should be compatible with converters of at least these brands: Diplomat (of course), Schmidt (models K1, K2, K5, and most likely K6), Monteverde, Pelikan, Rotring, S.T. Dupont, Visconti, and Waterman; and most likely Caran d'Ache, Kaweco, and Leonardo Officina Italiana as well, even though they have external threads just like the Schmidt K6.

 

But I wouldn't recommend you look for a compatible converter for the Diplomat pen, from either a Chinese seller or a Chinese brand, if you're trying to save on expense and find the retail pricing of those European-branded converters disagreeable in comparison.

 

The Luoshi should be able to take Jinhao and Wing Sung branded 2.6mm-bore converters, and any number of other assorted Chinese brands of (or perhaps non-branded) 2.6mm-bore converters. (Note: PenBBS and HongDian use 3.4mm-bore converters exclusively, as far as I know. Delike converters are 2.6mm-bore but have no lip in their geometry, and that can cause a problem with some other-branded pens.)

 

56 minutes ago, Z man said:

If my suppositions are correct, standard international cartridges would have worked for the Cross.

 

Cross-branded fountain pen models uses a proprietary ink cartridge format, if I'm not mistaken. The thinner lip part of the cartridge is much longer on Cross ink cartridges than on (short) “international standard” ones.

 

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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28 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

@Zegurk Welcome to FPN.

 

...

Cross-branded fountain pen models uses a proprietary ink cartridge format, if I'm not mistaken. The thinner lip part of the cartridge is much longer on Cross ink cartridges than on (short) “international standard” ones.

 

Thank you for this most elucidating explanation of international cartridges. This is surely more complicated than imagined, and I take full responsibility for my errors.

 

If I understand your explanation, then, @inkstainedruth was in error as to her expectation for Cross FPs using international cartridges as I was given both of our admitted inexperience. 

 

Thanks, again, for your explanation,

 

Z

 

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It wasn't just my expectations.  I was flat out TOLD that's what the pen took.  And then when I went looking at a pen show for a converter to fit, none of the "International Standard" converters fit right -- but a Cross converter did.  

As far as the Pelikan cartridges, I'm back to not having a pen that will fit them except a couple of Pellikan M22s (the barrel of the 1980s Pelikano, sadly, having snapped right at the ink window :crybaby: -- for being a pen that I paid five bucks for at a pen show, it had a nice smooth writing nib) 

I honestly don't know if International Standard short cartridges would have fit the Penetia or not.  But since I was able to find a converter that DID fit, it's mostly all good (other than not being able to used the Edelstein Amethyst carts.

I don't know if this is still the case, but a number of years ago someone on FPN  made a list of what cartridges and converters fit in which brands.  And -- at least at the time -- Parker ones would fit in at least SOME Aurora pens.  And possibly in some Lamy pens as well (although converters for the Safari family are easy enough to get). 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

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6 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

And -- at least at the time -- Parker ones would fit in at least SOME Aurora pens.

 

Yes, Parker converters can be used in Aurora c/c-filled models such as the Ipsilon, Tu, Talentum, etc., but not the Ottantotto and Optima piston-filler models, of course. (I only learnt the other day that there is at least one c/c-filled Ottantotto model.) 

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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I'm so glad most of my pens are piston.

I do have Pelikan (no converter...Just Edelsteain and 4001 cartridges) , Parker,and Lamy cartridge pens, that I have converters for.

I didn't realize how lucky I've been.

 

:rolleyes: I'd have to look and see what cartridge I had in my DuPont, but it (being a nail) never got much work.

I obviously didn't have any problems with that pen, but now remember having read about others that did.

:headsmack::headsmack:It has the converter that was in it.

Bought used of course...Grumble cubed...it was back in the day of live at an auction (no telephone or computer), and being almost alone in the hall, it being the deep summer, had hopes of getting it for the E-20 opening.....but the woman sitting right next to me was trying to buy it for her husband, so it cost me E-90

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

RIP...200's once great nib, now a double ball.:crybaby::wallbash:

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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