Pens comparable to the Pilot 823?

[markofp]

I’m up to my fourth Pilot 823, and I am wondering if there is anything from another manufacturer that is close to it, it terms of size, width and smoothness of writing. Three of my 823s are the clear demonstrators that are supposedly Japan only, so availability of that is a factor as I am genuinely attracted to the look, but I also like black and semi-transparent black as well. Suggestions? Thanks! 

[OCArt]

The Wing Sung 699 is a direct copy of the 823 but, of course, without a gold nib. I wouldn't use the word comparable but the writing experience is good and the price is much less.

[sandy101]

Any Visconti double vac piston filler - the Opera range for example - som eof them are semi-transparent. 

 

Visconti's nibs are not the same as Pilots. 

 

I'm not saying they are better or worse - just different. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I have no idea, living in Germany and being too cheap to buy a new pen, when possible. I like vintage great balanced semi-flex pens. '50-65 Pelikan, the Geha 790 that model @ 1959-72. The best buy in Semi-flex. The nib is the slightest tad better than the semi-flex Pelikans. You would have to own a few of each to feel the slight tad of difference.

 

I know next to nothing about japanese pens. Not their sizes or how they balance posted.

 

Standard sized pen, like the P-75, Esterbrook DJ, middle-large pens like the P-51, the Pelikan 600 balance well when posted.

I love the balance of a '50-60 medium-large  MB 146....I find the Large '70-now 146 a tad too big to have great balance. It has good balance, better IMO than the Large 800.

In I grew up (B&W TV times)  in the basically standard and medium-large pens that were posted. I favor that era.

 

The Geha School Pen is the Best Buy in regular flex.

So as many here say a Japanese 'soft' nib is = to a regular flex.

The Pilot mod, of half moons ground out of the side of the nibs, makes that nib @ = to a semi-flex nib or a soft, soft nib.

 

I wouldn't buy a post '97 Pelikan nib...in gold with out an idea to mod the nib....the nibs are fat and blobby and stiffer than once.

 

Vintage German semi-flex '50-65-70 ('72 Geha)  and semi-vintage '82-97 regular flex are very good nibs...well worth chasing........and being used are affordable. Any after @ '55 when Plastic Gasket 2.0 came in, should be still great. Mine are.

Those Plastic Gasket 1.0 '38?- 55, can be worn out the pens are good enough to spend a few dollars on a replacement with 2.0.

 

Do Not, repeat Do Not buy a Geha cartridge pen****, in they were the first to make a cartridge pen in Germany and on the other side of their cartridge put the fitting for the Pelikan. So there are so very few to be had....and needle fed. They are not worth it....even if a good pen.

 

**** Some great bargains as folks get burnt, some very nice little school pens.

 

[sirgilbert357]

On 5/15/2022 at 3:31 PM, markofp said:

I’m up to my fourth Pilot 823, and I am wondering if there is anything from another manufacturer that is close to it, it terms of size, width and smoothness of writing. Three of my 823s are the clear demonstrators that are supposedly Japan only, so availability of that is a factor as I am genuinely attracted to the look, but I also like black and semi-transparent black as well. Suggestions? Thanks! 

 

In terms of size and width? Do you mean the width of the pen body (girth), or the width of the stated nib grade?

 

Either way, there are options out there, yes. As far as smoothness goes, the wider the nib, the smoother it will be as a general rule- and any nib can be tuned by a nibmeister to be smooth. Not to mention, with some brands, it really is luck of the draw as to how your nib will turn out (Visconti comes to mind for me), so take brand recommendations with a grain of salt.

 

If you love the Pilot 823, why not look at other Pilot pens that are similar in size? If you want to branch out a bit, I'd recommend giving us a price range and whatever criteria matters to you so people can make recommendations.

 

Without knowing the above, I'd still be willing to suggest a Pelikan M800 of some variety. If you get one with a good nib, they really are excellent pens, and they are similar in size to your 823. I have both and although the weight and balance are slightly different, they are equally comfortable. I also had a Wing Sung 699 for a time and it would randomly leak from the section where the nib was friction fit into it...and usually only when the cap was on - so I gave it away. Other than that, it was a decent pen, but you could tell the Pilot was a better made product with a superior nib. If you have four Pilot 823's, do not bother getting a Wing Sung 699, it will be a waste of your money.

[A Smug Dill]

On 5/16/2022 at 6:31 AM, markofp said:

I’m up to my fourth Pilot 823, and I am wondering if there is anything from another manufacturer that is close to it, it terms of size, width and smoothness of writing. …‹snip›… I also like black and semi-transparent black as well. Suggestions?

 

 

Why specifically “from another manufacturer”? Surely the Pilot Custom 743 ticks all the boxes, when the clunky filling mechanism in the Custom 823 is the one feature that, by omission, you're not looking to replicate? Outside of it, the only point of difference the Custom 823 notably offers is a see-through barrel, but if you're after an opaque black body, the Custom 743 comes in black while the Custom 823 doesn't.

 

 

 

 

[lionelc]

would you consider a vac-fill sheaffer balance?  they come in black and translucent celluloid and many have very smooth nibs.  ron zorn may have one on sale.

[XYZZY]

On 5/17/2022 at 8:25 PM, A Smug Dill said:

 

Why specifically “from another manufacturer”? Surely the Pilot Custom 743 ticks all the boxes, when the clunky filling mechanism in the Custom 823 is the one feature that, by omission, you're not looking to replicate? Outside of it, the only point of difference the Custom 823 notably offers is a see-through barrel, but if you're after an opaque black body, the Custom 743 comes in black while the Custom 823 doesn't.

 

+1 for the 743.  A great reference for sizes of the Pilot Custom pens is at https://kmpn.blogspot.com/2011/06/pilot-custom.html where you'll see that the 823 and 743 are very close in size.

 

The 743 is also available in an opaque dark red body.  The black body has the largest number of options for different types of nibs in the #15 size:  everything you could get on the 723, soft nibs in various widths, posting, waverly, and of course the FA.  I think it's only distributed in Japan, but there are plenty of places that you buy it.

[mhwombat]

On 5/17/2022 at 7:31 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

I have no idea, living in Germany and being too cheap to buy a new pen, when possible. I like vintage great balanced semi-flex pens. '50-65 Pelikan, the Geha 790 that model @ 1959-72. The best buy in Semi-flex.

 

Any suggestions of online vintage pen vendors where I might look for one of those? I can deal with a language barrier; it's finding a good site that's difficult. The English language sites I know of haven't had much selection of Pelikans or other German pens.

 

I'm in Ireland, so post-Brexit I started doing most of my online shopping outside the UK to avoid customs charges. As a result, I can recognise words like "fountain pen", "shopping cart" and "out of stock" in a dozen languages!

[Ron Z]

This is going to sound like heresy, but I also like the Wing Sung 699.   I have two, and find them to be comfortable to use, nibs are decent though gold plated.  The mechanism is very similar to the 823, but without the tendency for the barrel to crack along the seams.   I've been asked to fix many of them over the years.    The nib is a more or less standard size #6 nib, so you maybe able to fit a better nib in if you wish.    The only down side is that you can't fit an 823 nib and feed into the section, and the threads are just different enough that you can't swap sections either. 

[tim77]

40 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

This is going to sound like heresy, but I also like the Wing Sung 699.

 

The 699 is quite nice to write with, although on the two I have the rubber end of the pistons tends to get detached when filling.  For now they're still usable, but I doubt they'll stay that way.

[Ron Z]

Interesting.  I've had mine, filled, for almost 2 years without any problems.

[james3paris]

On 5/15/2022 at 4:49 PM, OCArt said:

The Wing Sung 699 is a direct copy of the 823 but, of course, without a gold nib. I wouldn't use the word comparable but the writing experience is good and the price is much less.

I grabbed the 699 based on your post and curiosity.   A pretty good pen for $30.  I did see one somewhere with a 14k nib for about $100.  

[Bo Bo Olson]

4 hours ago, mhwombat said:

Any suggestions of online vintage pen vendors where I might look for one of those? I can deal with a language barrier; it's finding a good site that's difficult. The English language sites I know of haven't had much selection of Pelikans or other German pens.

 

German E-bay, E-60-80, as long as you can hang with a auction bid....do stay away from the Impatient Buy Now Idiot sellers, they do offer it at Stateside prices and will offer the very same pen for say 10E less in the auction section, to convince you to spend the 10E and not have to bid on it...a "great deal" but not for you.

 

They come up every week or two. Do look in the Erviteret...finished auctions for real prices.

The nibs are great, a tad better than Pelikan.Are stubbed semi-flex.

Because of the reserve tank button on the bottom of feed, they take 4 X's as long to clean as a Pelikan....but it is a great balanced pen.

Been hyping them for 13 or so years as Best buy.

The school pens, now priced at @ E 19 are the best buy for a regular flex nibbed pen, but only FK, k=kugal, or ball....Are the American Bump Under tipping, tear drop.

I had two, but 'sold' to the guy upstairs  for the 20, when I set him up with a four pen, starter set...

 

You do need both.

 

[AmandaW]

55 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

as long as you can hang with a auction bid....do stay away from the Impatient Buy Now Idiot sellers

 

At least it's honest and predictable. That doesn't make me an idiot. I simply prefer not to engage with the uncertainty of rising exchange rates and snipers (where I do my home work, wait and get nothing while missing a buy it now that would have been a better deal!). Would you please get off your high-horse and your insulting remarks - when there are many sides to the equation - and you are in no position or entitlement to make a judgement.

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

6 hours ago, AmandaW said:

At least it's honest and predictable. That doesn't make me an idiot. I simply prefer not to engage with the uncertainty of rising exchange rates and snipers (where I do my home work, wait and get nothing while missing a buy it now that would have been a better deal!). Would you please get off your high-horse and your insulting remarks - when there are many sides to the equation - and you are in no position or entitlement to make a judgement.

I have just as much a right to make a judgement as you do.

It is your problem you recognize yourself. And don't like it. That's a start. Get a free snipe program.

 

You too can get a snipe program. They are free.

I don't have one, and have been snipped. If I didn't start buying at live auctions, I'd have a free snipe program

 

(In I do live in Germany when I did bid it was in the last 15 seconds for the adrenaline rush, and only once.) I can see someone living in the wrong time zone having problems. A single Max bid works also. I've won with that, in a bid under max wins also.

 

I'm glad you are well to do, and can afford to pay Buy Now Idiot's  E285 for a E100 used Pelikan.

 

I've told everyone here for the last 12-13 years, quite often about going to German Ebay for better prices.

And over the last five or so years, about the cartel of professional sellers over here in Germany, who rip people off on the Buy Now Idiot section...............and having the very same pen in the regular auction section, with a start bid at some E10 less than their buy now for the impatient well to do.  That makes some people think the pen's price is 'fair' when it's nothing but a rip off.

 

I do think selling a E100/$115 pen for E 280/$300 a rip off and when there are so many professional sellers doing so, I'll call it a cartel, even if that is not an exact definition of the word cartel. It's close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades, & pen rip off's.

[markofp]

Thanks for your thoughts. The Pilot 743 looks interesting, but it seems very strange to me that the great nib variations are only on the black. Odd way to do business, IMHO. I may give it a shot anyway.

 

The 699 seems to be so close to the 823 so as to be considered a knock-off of same. I'm sure its a great value, but I don't see much sense in buying a copy of a pen I love when I have four originals. The Pelikan 800 might be great also. 

 

As far as eBay goes, what is the difference between selling something under the "buy it now" scheme and selling something in a regular classified ad? Most of the things that I sell there are sold the way, and I offer fair prices and more often then not achieve sales, at least I did until eBay started their "send watcher a lower price" nonsense. 

[Ron Z]

You know Bo Bo, I don't find using the word "idiot" for people who choose to use the BIN function on Ebay to be very helpful.  There are reasons why someone may choose to pay a higher price than the auction.  We can't know the reasons are, can we?  It's really none of our business. 

[sirgilbert357]

15 hours ago, Ron Z said:

You know Bobo, I don't find using the word "idiot" for people who choose to use the BIN function on Ebay to be very helpful.  There are reasons why someone may choose to pay a higher price than the auction.  We can't know the reasons are, can we?  It's really none of our business. 

 

Not to mention I see tons of auctions for things that go higher than similarly priced Buy It Nows. The BIN price is not always the "highest" price - hence the term "bidding war". Wish we could keep all the judgmental talk out of FPN. It's just unnecessary to talk that way about fellow FPNers.

[sirgilbert357]

15 hours ago, markofp said:

Thanks for your thoughts. The Pilot 743 looks interesting, but it seems very strange to me that the great nib variations are only on the black. Odd way to do business, IMHO. I may give it a shot anyway.

 

The 699 seems to be so close to the 823 so as to be considered a knock-off of same. I'm sure its a great value, but I don't see much sense in buying a copy of a pen I love when I have four originals. The Pelikan 800 might be great also. 

 

As far as eBay goes, what is the difference between selling something under the "buy it now" scheme and selling something in a regular classified ad? Most of the things that I sell there are sold the way, and I offer fair prices and more often then not achieve sales, at least I did until eBay started their "send watcher a lower price" nonsense. 

 

As I did this very thing, I can assure you, the 699 is in no way a better, or even equal, pen than/to the 823. If you already have even one 823, don't waste your money on the 699 (unless you just want to use it for something you wouldn't put your 823 through - like an ink that is known for staining or something).