I'm curious what you think of pens made in China

[TFHS]

3 hours ago, txomsy said:

Sorry, I think you misinterpreted my statements. I wasn't talking of Chinese buyers specifically.

 

What I was talking is about trends (not just FP-related) I have seen elsewhere (personally witnessed and discussed with friends from Africa, the Americas, Asia, Australia and Europe), and that are gaining increasing momentum.

 

I was talking about general, common culture traits that I've seen all around, and of long-term dynamics. You may choose to discard others' opinions as minority based; that, certainly is your undisputed and absolute privilege.

 

And yes, I know I am in a minority. Compared with the 1.4 billion Chinese market, the rest of the 7.7 billion humans are a minority divided in multiple smaller countries (even India with 1.3 billion is smaller, and Europe with its 0.7 billion is only half).

 

As I said, I can't speak for (or about) Chinese citizens, it's been long since last I was there. But I've seen the trends everywhere else, and sincerely think that, in the long run, certain behaviors are better received than others by the majority of the population, in spite of any propaganda.

 

And finally, as I also said, I am also fully aware that I can be totally and absolutely wrong. This is my personal perception, certainly biased by my non-Chinese cultural background, nothing more, nothing else.

 

Sorry, but you may have misinterpreted my statements as well.

I'm mainly talking about products before the mid-1980s.

As for the fountain pens that are now Chinese mainland produced, I am also disgusted. The vast majority of those workshops rely entirely on the legacy of those Pen & Pencil Corp for key technical issues (such as the production of gold nibs) and the appearance design of overseas manufacturers, although their actual operation is not easy.

 

I also feel sorry for Parker and Sheaffer as much as I feel for those Pen & Pencil Corp. No way, it's not the time when Saturn V could be launched.

[txomsy]

Following on would require veering on forbidden topics, but I do think that modern pen makers do still have a chance if they are willing to aim for it. But that would also be an off-topic discussion.

 

So let's agree that there are good and bad pens like everywhere else.

[A Smug Dill]

26 minutes ago, txomsy said:

So let's agree that there are good and bad pens like everywhere else.

 

Agreed.

[TFHS]

On 5/26/2022 at 3:24 PM, txomsy said:

Which just comes to show the problem in perception,

 

Vintage, while not clearly defined, means something that is old and of good quality. Where old, for many means usually made 20-30 years ago if not more, and often 'older than me' (for whoever "me").

 

So, saying recently produced Chinese vintage fountain pens is a contradiction that creates a terribly bad image, that of a scammer trying to sell something as what it isn't.

 

I mention it because it is the most common term I find in low-quality Chinese products at closely or higher than non-Chinese, bona-fide vintage ones.

 

I agree it may be lack of knowledge of the language or different meanings of similarly translatable terms, but yet, that does not reflect well on the whole.

 

As a comparison, I know many examples of other brands (and products) from other origin, that have started selling something on different local markets with names that would sound offensive, disparaging or just not-good and promptly changed the names as soon as they discovered the issue.

 

Also, I already said that going for a quick buck is not necessarily bad. It allows for quick growth. But it also reflects a naïve, outdated, simplistic view of business, that only looks at immediate gross income. And that, I fear, may backfire in the future. I'm not saying 赔了夫人又折兵 (1), but -IMMHO- aiming for a quick buck now harms long-term success.

 

贪多必失 (2) and 天下无不散的宴席 (3)

 

(1) Lose a Lady and suffer military loses (from 三國演義 "Three Kingdoms", used -I think- to imply using a seemingly clever but bad strategy)
(2) Who wants everything loses everything

(3) No feasting in this world lasts forever

 

My free translations, I can't say for sure if I fully caught the correct meaning of these or if my use of it is appropriate, it's been too long since I went -very shortly- to Hong Kong and Beijing to lecture at HKU and PKU, so please do accept my apologies for any mistakes; and whenever reading any of my opinions, do not forget that 愚者千虑，必有一得 (among a thousand statements from a fool --that's me--, there must be an acceptable one) --same disclaimers apply to this last (free) translation. Please feel free to correct me (my Chinese is only very elementary) if I got the translations or the use wrong, 他山之石，可以攻玉 (the stones from other mountains may help polish the jade from this -fool me- one)

 

I stop here for others to comment...

且聽下回分解

 

(From "Outlaws of the Marsh": If you want to learn more proceed to next comment )

 

However, sometimes it is difficult to accurately understand and use foreign languages, especially if there are small differences in words that will be magnified or masked by Google Translate.😂😂😂

[txomsy]

That's another difference.

 

I lost count long ago of "vineyard" items from China (actually intending to say "vintage"). How much someone is willing to spend in appropriately marketing their product also speaks at length about how much they value it.

 

It may be not intentional, I agree it can actually be difficult, but on the part of the "receiver" of the message, those mishaps do not help. When placed against a brand that is willing to take that translation (and even better, local adaptation) step, the later gets a better image.

[awa54]

...back to the actual pens:

 

I have several Chinese made pens that are probably over 40 years old and these are both better made (materials and workmanship) and more reliable writers than any of my more recent acquisitions, but that may be a fluke as the sample size is quite small. 

 

my recent experience has been a trend toward Chinese domestic market pens showing lackluster overall quality, spotty QC and IMO uninspired design. kind of like mass-market American pens from the 1950s (think low-end Wearever), they're obviously made as a commodity and while good examples can be very functional, sometimes bordering on excellent, not all will meet that standard and in fact some are straight up junk. 

many of these designs also have fatal or at least crippling flaws, cheap plastics and lousy caps being the most common.

 

this situation has made me leery of spending too much on Chinese made pens of late.

another experience that plays into this habit is my recent purchase of a Hero 100 flighter, which claimed to have a gold nib... it most certainly didn't and was nothing like the 100 I purchased in the early 1990s, which was (and still is) a *very* serviceable pen, made to quite respectable standards. the recent production variant was a pale shadow of it's 30 years ago equivalent!

 

that said, I have a Moonman acrylic ED pen that's excellent in all ways (if somewhat simple in design) and have enjoyed various PenBBS models, despite their quirks (so close to true excellence!). I also recently acquired an Opus 88 Koloro, which is very nice, but quirky as well.

...which brings me to the fact that many of the current "upscale" offerings seem to be dispensing with in-house nibs and farming that out to European nib makers, I'm not sure why they would do that when there are plenty of above average Chinese nibs available (PenBBS's standard fine is one of my favorite steel nibs and even the tubular "Parker-esque" nibs in otherwise awful $3 Chinese pens can be fabulously smooth and reliable) ...if the industry would just collectively add the tooling to make medium and broad nibs then there should be no need to buy Jowo or Bock units.

 

I'd love to see more original designs that don't look like other makers' pens which have been warmed over (or blatantly copied), higher end pens that aren't gaudy, enormous Krone wannabees and some solid workmanlike efforts in the mid price range that hark back to the durability and function of the better vintage pens (I'd buy a direct 1:1 remake of the Hero 600 in an instant!).

 

so, my final calculation regarding Chinese pens (as they're available in the US right now) is that I like some Chinese pens and want to like more Chinese pens, but many of the more promising (and hence costly) models are too expensive to roll the dice on and many of the affordable pens are just plain "cheap", or have needless and frustrating quirks (I'm looking at your perpetually cracked nib housings PenBBS!) so I stay away.

this is compounded by the all too common gushing reviews of budget and ultra-budget priced Chinese made pens that are objectively only so-so, with their best feature actually being that they're amazingly inexpensive.

 

[A Smug Dill]

50 minutes ago, awa54 said:

...which brings me to the fact that many of the current "upscale" offerings seem to be dispensing with in-house nibs and farming that out to European nib makers,

 

The current truly “upscale” offerings among Chinese pens have Chinese-made gold nibs — which I personally haven't tried, and on which I'm not inclined to gamble ≥US$80 apiece — not Bock and Schmidt nibs. (I don't recall seeing any pens made in China, outside of Taiwan, that use JoWo nibs or make that a selling point.)

 

“Chinese pens”, or ”pens made in China” as stated in the O.P.'s chosen thread title, are not limited to those that pop up on AliExpress, eBay and Etsy where Westerners are likely to see from afar. If you want to include Opus 88 — and therefore, by extension, pens made in Taiwan — then Fine Writing has been making quite upscale offerings for the Taiwanese domestic market for years, long before retailers in Europe and North America started stocking them and well-known reviewers started talking about them.

 

After all, I find that unless an English-speaking reviewer happens to reside in the Far East, few of them seem to be interested in going to a lot of trouble to find and source relatively inaccessible Chinese and Japanese pens and reviewing them, just for either egotistical “Look what I found!” or broadening the hobby's landscape, when less tenacious Western consumers and hobbyists would not be so keen to follow suit after reading about it. Understandably reviewers want to stay relevant to their target audience, but manufacturers from wherever need not aim to be relevant to those reviewers' followers, especially when their respective not-primarily-English-speaking domestic markets are large enough.

 

1 hour ago, awa54 said:

this is compounded by the all too common gushing reviews of budget and ultra-budget priced Chinese made pens that are objectively only so-so, with their best feature actually being that they're amazingly inexpensive.

 

Well, dollar for dollar, the technical performance and production quality of what you get from a Jinhao 51A, Wing Sung 3008, HongDian 517D, etc. is excellent. If a Lamy Safari were able to deliver commensurately as much for the retail price, I'd be gushing about them too.

[Mech-for-i]

As for the nib, M and B , well well it depend on how you define a M , PenBBS, Jinhao, and others offers M nib but its Asian M , kind of like a bit more than the Japanese M, and would likely be termed FM or even just Fine with regard to European nibs , F is always there , so do EF and some models / Mfr offers XXF ..

 

The case with B or wider is , for the said Mfr(s) non issue , first off they had Calligraphy aka Fude nib , and now with development of mass production compound curve " Knife " grind this is seen offered as standard offering instead of after market parts, between them they offer already as wide as one can reasonably

 

 

[Mech-for-i]

3 hours ago, awa54 said:

..

 

this situation has made me leery of spending too much on Chinese made pens of late.

another experience that plays into this habit is my recent purchase of a Hero 100 flighter, which claimed to have a gold nib... it most certainly didn't and was nothing like the 100 I purchased in the early 1990s ....

 

 

sad to read that , I had some recent Hero 100 and sure they had the gold nib, you might want to check if the retailer making some dirty trick here and there .. AFAIK , Hero current production model 100 are all only offered with the 14K nib

 

As for up scale ( western standard ) or mass market , it's hard to fault the Mfr , first off their mass market offering is pretty much all targeted towards the home market which of course just see such fountain pens as , well , mass market commodities and just pens , nothing fancy , many are dirt cheap but yet are just overall good working pens ( just do not expect any superlative performance ) , and as for up scale , there are quite a bunch , just that they likely never made it out of the country , most of them 

 

Its in the end the matter of branding, marketing cost vs actual business volume that could be ( or could not be ) .. the market is just not big enough for the better brands to actually branch out and provide , market , and cater to the crowd outside of the home country ( or at least outside of Asia )

[txomsy]

That may very well be so.

 

But if you only cater to local customers, and exchange with the outside is strongly controlled and restricted, then, one needs to accept that the image projected outside may not be the one desired.

 

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

few of them seem to be interested in going to a lot of trouble

 

That also may go to the point. And probably reflects political decisions better left out of the discussion. But if accessing a market is made rather hard for protectionist purposes, then it is no wonder outsider's opinion is driven by what they can access. 

 

(I do not think reviewers think of "followers", I think they rather reflect what a majority thinks and that's why they have followers. Not always, but IMMHO, mostly).

 

A roadblock works both ways. Claiming that makers can make a living (no matter how good, within local limitations) addressing only the local market is OK. But then, asking on a global forum for outsider opinions should account for our strongly and purposefully reduced experience.

 

I have strongly defended elsewhere the ability of Chinese makers to deliver quality or cost/quality effective products (in spite of my limited access), and to freely use designs long in the public domain, but the limitations work both ways: sooner or later restrictions will be lifted and then Chinese makers will not be ready for the global market, only their local one. Unless restrictions are lifted only when they are ready, at which point the outside market may play the same game and restrict access to Chinese products in the same way. Or unless they can coerce the outside market to accept their "low-Q/convenience" strategy, which will likely not help either customer perception. Either way, it is a no-win strategy.

 

Plus, it all generates outside a very strong feeling of unfair competition, something that does not help build a good image either.

 

This is all to say, if someone asks in a global forum what people think of a restricted access market, you should be ready to get possibly distorted opinions (cannot know if they are distorted when access is restricted/purposely made difficult).

 

So, I won't deny that inside China there may be an absolutely different panorama, but what I (and that's only me) can see from outside, is not rosy either.

 

Maybe the original question should have been "I'm curious what people with full access to the Chinese market and its information think of pens made in China".

[A Smug Dill]

40 minutes ago, txomsy said:

This is all to say, if someone asks in a global forum what people think of a restricted access market, you should be ready to get possibly distorted opinions (cannot know if they are distorted when access is restricted/purposely made difficult).

 

I was certainly mindful of that when I wrote my earlier post. However, it is also up to self-aware individuals to be mindful of their limited visibility, tunnel vision, whatever you want to call it. Their strong opinions and/or feelings are based on having and looking at an incomplete picture, with no great interest to see or discover more at their own expense of funds and effort. So, the point of expressing that opinion in a forum of fellow hobbyists would not be to seek reinforcement of their opinions and feel that some representative proportion of others agree with them; but, instead, it would be to see how there are other opinions in the community, based on different values and different levels of visibility, to remind themselves that they themselves are not representative or in the majority. It's this “opening of one's eyes” to values and views that one doesn't personally subscribe to which makes discussion things with faceless strangers — albeit with a common interest area, based on the theme of the forum in question — online.

 

I certainly trust those who are passionate about their hobby — this hobby — to not be closed to the idea that they are only on the periphery; as are all of us, their fellow hobbyists. We come here to see more of the landscape illuminated so that the piece what we're familiar and already comfortable with is revealed to be smaller and smaller of the whole, with plenty of room to explore new ground.

 

I'm not trying to change how anyone feels, about their preferences or areas of particular interest, through extrinsic influence, let alone pressure or badgering. All I want is to throw other perspectives and narratives into the mix legitimately and relevantly, instead of letting one view — or, dare I suggest, West-centric views — to dominate the narrative. After all, many silent members and unregistered visitors also look at what is posted on FPN; so it's best for them to see it as a mass of disparate minority opinions, instead of thinking the ‘community’ of hobbyists are all agreed on certain things being discussed when in fact there is no agreed or representative position.

 

Edit:

39 minutes ago, txomsy said:

Maybe the original question should have been "I'm curious what people with full access to the Chinese market and its information think of pens made in China".

 

I strongly disagree with that, actually. It's interesting and informative to see how others feel given their limited visibility, and with each of us being aware that others (also) have limited visibility. The goal is not to get consensus, or see what occupies the heartland of opinions as if this was a poll and we were gathering statistics. If a whole lot of someones feel strongly a particular way because of only knowing what they can see, then it may be worth Chinese pen manufacturers (and overseas distributors of those brands) to do some marketing to show just how small a part of the landscape of Chinese pens that the average consumer can see from the outside.

 

The Japanese Big Three also offer numerous editions and models that are only actively distributed and sold in the domestic market, and make no great effort to let overseas consumers know of their existence or market release; anyone outside who managed to get one would be getting ‘grey imports’ outside of authorised distribution channels. Yet, there is relatively little dispute over the quality of what the Japanese brands offer. To me, that is what the Chinese manufacturers ought to aim for: build up enough of a name and enough consumer confidence overseas in their brands, without even pretending to make everything — or all the best “upscale” models — accessible via authorised overseas distribution channels or even AliExpress (where only understanding English will get you by, if you want to order something). I've already said, much earlier in the thread, that Chinese pen brands still have a major QC/consistency issue to overcome, towards that objective. Allowing West-centric views to have a say in how Chinese manufacturing capability “should” be, or would be “better”, used is very low on the list of things the industry in China needs to address, until the amount of money consumers in Western markets are chomping at the bit to hand over, specifically to spend on something other than European and American brands, promises to make up a large enough proportion of revenue to warrant notice. Such is capitalism and business, as opposed to politics, racism and what-not.

 

Coin is mightier than anyone's sentiments.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by A Smug Dill

[Mech-for-i]

AFAIK , this marketing meta had nothing to do with politics at all, its just business , especially with a product where customers highly prejudiced against anything new , the cost of actually able to made a business outside of the established market is just business vise NOT SOUND , and despite what customers or potential customers might had to say about it, if any business venture would require cost, time, effort, and then some but will not return enough business volume, revenue and profit then there really is no reason to pursue ..

 

its sort of the same for many other products which generally are regional , the cost, options and availability outside of the intended market generally are just BAD

 

Though everything not so gloomy, the solution is no less e-retail and commerce , of course then the hurdle become the freight , cost of individual personal order simply will be HIGH and that goes for any product one buy from oversea

 

[awa54]

16 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

.....

 

 

Well, dollar for dollar, the technical performance and production quality of what you get from a Jinhao 51A, Wing Sung 3008, HongDian 517D, etc. is excellent. If a Lamy Safari were able to deliver commensurately as much for the retail price, I'd be gushing about them too.

 

 

I'll take your word that those models outperform a Safari,  however Lamy brings a level of consistency, styling coherency and an across the board commitment to deliver thoroughly engineered products... 

 

in my experience this is not the case with Jinhao or Wing Sung (I don't knowingly own any HongDian pens), some models are better than others, individual pens may vary in quality and in the selling format they reach the US, there's nothing remotely resembling a coherent brand feel.

 

as an example of the gold nib conundrum I'll take the Wing Sung 601: why would I expect the $170 gold nib version, that shares the same model number and filling system with a $20 steel nib variant to have better build quality, or even a cap with a functional inner seal, when that base model lacks any real redeeming qualities past a novel reinterpretation of the old Parker Vacumatic filler system (and that feature being a mix of benefit and liability).

I really don't care how good the nib might be if the rest of the package doesn't meet, or at least approach that standard. I'd be glad to know that I'm wrong and the entire product has been elevated to meet the perceived value of the nib, but my own experience says that would be a gamble.

 

 

[txomsy]

7 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Allowing West-centric views to have a say in how Chinese manufacturing capability “should” be, or would be “better”, used is very low on the list of things the industry in China needs to address, until the amount of money consumers in Western markets are chomping at the bit to hand over

Isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy?

 

If they never care for anything but domestic market, then potential overseas customers will never be enticed to spend either, closing a vicious circle.

 

Anyone can learn here from others' experiences which brands deliver more quality, consistency or responsiveness.

 

Nothing is eternal and restrictions (economic, regulated market, political, whatever) will eventually go away. At that point, customers will ask around and compare reputations and decide on what works for them.

 

An overseas (to the maker) customer, will see what overseas (to the customer) makers have to offer, and then make a decision based on reputation (because that's the result of the historic record of shared experiences).

 

For any maker ignoring the global market today will only work as long as the local market is captive. And that works not only for pens.

 

As for opinions being "somewhere centric": tagging an statement does not change a iota its value. It might reflect a prejudice whereby "somewhere centric" opinions are perceived as somehow less valuable to some listener, and that can only lead to dismissing potentially useful opinions.

 

Personally, I do not make a distinction on the origin or tendency of an opinion, all are equally valuable to me, and the more they disagree with my expectations, the more interesting it becomes to me to investigate and try to understand why. But that's me and certainly it is my personal privilege to waste my time listening to all on equal grounds. Which I enjoy immensely.

[A Smug Dill]

13 hours ago, txomsy said:

Isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy?

 

If they never care for anything but domestic market, then potential overseas customers will never be enticed to spend either, closing a vicious circle.

 

No, it isn’t.

 

I’m saying Chinese manufacturers can safely, and in my opinion should, at this point in time ignore how and on what a very tiny minority of West-centric hobbyists want to see all those resources and all that capability in Chinese hands to be used. If you want me to be more specific, I’m saying, all that “I’d want the Chinese pen manufacturers to produce more original designs, and focus on innovation to extend the landscape, instead of blatantly copying and adapting what European and/or Japanese brands have proven successful and made popular, but undercutting and undermining those brands both domestically and overseas” type of suggestions can be treated by the decision-makers as being ill-considered from a business perspective and thus just meaningless noise.

 

If the Chinese brands are not succeeding well enough at taking market share overseas from the likes of Kaweco, Parker, Leonardo Officina Italiana, Faber-Castell, etc. because the quality of the substitute products offered up as competition is not high enough or consistent enough, then they should try harder and produce better pens in that vein, until it hurts their Western competitors enough overseas and force them to go on the defensive. There is plenty of latent demand for cheaper pens, and a lot of consumers in that segment are prepared to accept a slightly lower standard of quality as long as the pens still function adequately as writing instruments; so there is in fact room to grow The Hobby’s consumer base overall, by pulling in some who have previously been held back by (perception of?) fountain pen prices, while also unapologetically setting out to snatch market share among current fountain pen users, in a sort of zero-sum game being played against non-Chinese brands and manufacturers.

 

When I say West-centric, I mean people who think that Western brands, and their market position and/or heritage, ought to be afforded some ‘respect’ and protection beyond the boundaries of the law, as opposed to being completely origin-agnostic, and viewing the market as just dog eat dog business, but waiting to opportunistically take advantage of whatever concessions individual manufacturers have to make (e.g. by offering discounts) to try to defend market share. I don’t care if Kaweco bleeds, and I don’t care if Delike bleeds. Leonardo and Majohn né Moonman, and Parker and Jinhao, too. The fight is already on, and it can be as adversarial, savage, down and dirty as it goes; it doesn’t matter who picked the fight, and who can stop the fight so everyone would play nice instead; what matters in the foreseeable future is who wins series after series of small battles until the bloody war for market dominance takes shape.

 

This thread, as far as I’m concerned, is primarily about pens made in China as products, and not corporate behaviour and focus of Chinese manufacturers, or whether trying to elbow in on established players’ revenue streams instead of striving for excellence and uniqueness is misguided and/or unethical in a niche industry. It is constructive criticism to point out how and where Chinese pens fail to destabilise and unseat the Western products and brands they ‘imitate’, if pointing out those flaws and weaknesses can help the possessors of all that manufacturing know-how and assets to better weaponise that capability to strike some hard blows at the competition while satisfying chasers of good, immediate value-for-money both domestically and abroad.

 

If non-Chinese brands want to fight back with either cheaper pricing, or marketing just how they excel in ways Chinese pens cannot simply copy or replace, so much the better.

 

[TFHS]

1 hour ago, txomsy said:

Isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy?

 

If they never care for anything but domestic market, then potential overseas customers will never be enticed to spend either, closing a vicious circle.

 

Anyone can learn here from others' experiences which brands deliver more quality, consistency or responsiveness.

 

Nothing is eternal and restrictions (economic, regulated market, political, whatever) will eventually go away. At that point, customers will ask around and compare reputations and decide on what works for them.

 

An overseas (to the maker) customer, will see what overseas (to the customer) makers have to offer, and then make a decision based on reputation (because that's the result of the historic record of shared experiences).

 

For any maker ignoring the global market today will only work as long as the local market is captive. And that works not only for pens.

 

As for opinions being "somewhere centric": tagging an statement does not change a iota its value. It might reflect a prejudice whereby "somewhere centric" opinions are perceived as somehow less valuable to some listener, and that can only lead to dismissing potentially useful opinions.

 

Personally, I do not make a distinction on the origin or tendency of an opinion, all are equally valuable to me, and the more they disagree with my expectations, the more interesting it becomes to me to investigate and try to understand why. But that's me and certainly it is my personal privilege to waste my time listening to all on equal grounds. Which I enjoy immensely.

Before the mid-1980s Chinese mainland pen industry paid much more attention to overseas consumers than expected. 
The first goal of these pen factories is to earn foreign exchange, followed by profits and the domestic market.

Although the production department was separated from the commercial and trade department at that time, the production department was always concerned about the market. Each pen factory sends employees to visit various overseas markets regularly. The staff of the commercial  foreign trade Departments stationed in the various diplomaticmission will also write the analysis of the markets in their regions and submit them to the production departments. 

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/B6-q183iCOQog0q4EGm3Eg

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Iu2IQNzWZL3qDlt_ZyKRcw

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/TMaEZqW53kYkvlKM9zRnnA

(I've only found some of the '80s, and the earlier reports were not published publicly.)

When it comes to the current Chinese mainland pen industry, these pen factories are too small, and most of them are unclear about the positioning of their products in the domestic market (they are not clear whether the product is for fountain pen collectors or ordinary users), let alone overseas markets. 

Although Chinese fountain pens have always been cheap, at least the pens produced in the past are qualified as writing instruments.

[TFHS]

41 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

No, it isn’t.

 

I’m saying Chinese manufacturers can safely, and in my opinion should, at this point in time ignore how and on what a very tiny minority of West-centric hobbyists want to see all those resources and all that capability in Chinese hands to be used. If you want me to be more specific, I’m saying, all that “I’d want the Chinese pen manufacturers to produce more original designs, and focus on innovation to extend the landscape, instead of blatantly copying and adapting what European and/or Japanese brands have proven successful and made popular, but undercutting and undermining those brands both domestically and overseas” type of suggestions can be treated by the decision-makers as being ill-considered from a business perspective and thus just meaningless noise.

 

If the Chinese brands are not succeeding well enough at taking market share overseas from the likes of Kaweco, Parker, Leonardo Officina Italiana, Faber-Castell, etc. because the quality of the substitute products offered up as competition is not high enough or consistent enough, then they should try harder and produce better pens in that vein, until it hurts their Western competitors enough overseas and force them to go on the defensive. There is plenty of latent demand for cheaper pens, and a lot of consumers in that segment are prepared to accept a slightly lower standard of quality as long as the pens still function adequately as writing instruments; so there is in fact room to grow The Hobby’s consumer base overall, by pulling in some who have previously been held back by (perception of?) fountain pen prices, while also unapologetically setting out to snatch market share among current fountain pen users, in a sort of zero-sum game being played against non-Chinese brands and manufacturers.

 

When I say West-centric, I mean people who think that Western brands, and their market position and/or heritage, ought to be afforded some ‘respect’ and protection beyond the boundaries of the law, as opposed to being completely origin-agnostic, and viewing the market as just dog eat dog business, but waiting to opportunistically take advantage of whatever concessions individual manufacturers have to make (e.g. by offering discounts) to try to defend market share. I don’t care if Kaweco bleeds, and I don’t care if Delike bleeds. Leonardo and Majohn né Moonman, and Parker and Jinhao, too. The fight is already on, and it can be as adversarial, savage, down and dirty as it goes; it doesn’t matter who picked the fight, and who can stop the fight so everyone would play nice instead; what matters in the foreseeable future is who wins series after series of small battles until the bloody war for market dominance takes shape.

 

This thread, as far as I’m concerned, is primarily about pens made in China as products, and not corporate behaviour and focus of Chinese manufacturers, or whether trying to elbow in on established players’ revenue streams instead of striving for excellence and uniqueness is misguided and/or unethical in a niche industry. It is constructive criticism to point out how and where Chinese pens fail to destabilise and unseat the Western products and brands they ‘imitate’, if pointing out those flaws and weaknesses can help the possessors of all that manufacturing know-how and assets to better weaponise that capability to strike some hard blows at the competition while satisfying chasers of good, immediate value-for-money both domestically and abroad.

 

If non-Chinese brands want to fight back with either cheaper pricing, or marketing just how they excel in ways Chinese pens cannot just copy or replace, so much the better.

 

most of the Chinese mainland fountain pens produced now can only be called "toys" or "parts". They must be commissioned and repaired by consumers before they can be used properly. And these steps should be done in the factory.

 

Regarding the appearance design of Chinese fountain pens, whether produced now or produced in the past, it is undeniable that "copying" has always been the mainstream. The pure original design of the appearance is almost non-existent.

[inkstainedruth]

14 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Well, dollar for dollar, the technical performance and production quality of what you get from a Jinhao 51A, Wing Sung 3008, HongDian 517D, etc. is excellent. If a Lamy Safari were able to deliver commensurately as much for the retail price, I'd be gushing about them too.

Not sure I'd agree with you there.  Someone gave me a Jinhao 599 (a clone of a Lamy Safari, or -- more likely, since it's a metal bodied pen -- an al-Star).  And while it works?  My Safari family pens are MUCH better and are still reasonably priced.  In fact, the only real good of the 599 is that it taught me that I *could* get used to the triangular section.  

And I'm not sure but what the Hero 616 I have isn't a fake.  Someone in my local pen club ordered a ten or twelve pack a few years ago, and handed them out to anyone who wanted to try one.  I think they may have cost the guy a buck apiece.  And, well, mine writes like it's worth a buck....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Ron Z]

Quote

They must be commissioned and repaired by consumers before they can be used properly.

 

Sorry, but this could apply to a lot of pen manufacturers, not just Chinese, not just low end.  The number of modern pens that pen repair people have to "tune" before they write properly is ridiculous.  OTOH, I have had a number of Chinese pens that wrote just fine out of the box.  Go figure.  

[txomsy]

3 hours ago, TFHS said:

 The pure original design of the appearance is almost non-existent.

 

I am not sure I agree on this. I think there are numerous examples of original designs (which I may or not like but that is pointless), but it is true that the vast majority of what is seen from outside seems to be based on existing designs. Which is not a bad thing either, that is what copyright and patent expiration into the Public Domain are intended for.

 

I understand there are many small brands, but so are elsewhere. The Internet is being successfully used to an advantage by many other small makers everywhere, so, there are business paths open.

 

I agree though that if customers are not fully satisfied, specially in contemporary times of instant satisfaction, that does not help build a good image, or customer loyalty.

 

Cheap is great, as @inkstainedruthhas indicated it allows one to reduce entry costs, but if the product is not satisfactory, natural evolution is that next time -if one can afford it- the customer will seek something less straining (or, even, something satisfactory or -shrug- distinctive). That is where brand reputation comes into play.

 

I know, local Chinese customers may not be interested in other options, specially if they do not have access to them. But sooner or later they will, and it is then when reputation will pay back. A Chinese maker may be able to quickly adapt to new demands, but why should someone trust a maker that didn't care until forced? building a good reputation, however, takes much longer. That is -in my eyes- a serious disadvantage.

 

One does not need to build a century-old reputation like MontBlanc, Pelikan or Sailor, but one needs a history of delivering customer satisfaction. Currently, to me, Chinese brand pens give an image of delivering only cost satisfaction, and that for anything else I better look elsewhere.

 

It is here were I disagree with @A Smug Dill: I consider those short-term strategies short-sighted and doomed in the long run.