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Paper recommendation if I don't like Midori MD?


stalepie
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1 hour ago, stalepie said:

 

These will likely do fine. I meant to pick up Rhodia pads recently in a store's sale, but held off. I think it bugged me that I learned the paper in their webbies was different (slightly? 90 gsm vs 80 gsm) of the paper in their more famous notepads.

 

 

Will keep these in mind. I've seen them. I like that the Japanese notebooks often are built to lay flat, which seems like a good quality, and did not like the ring binders of the Black n Reds.

 

They're probably all good choices, though.

 

 

Midori MD Cotton put me off because of the higher price, and some people saying they prefered regular MD, but I'll definitely take a look at th Strathmore Writing Paper, as I see it comes in 500 ream packages for fairly little money (though more expensive than HP Premium's 32 line). Do they make notebooks? I'll look around.

 

I don't know why I've become so picky...

 

So many choices. Thank you so much. I'll try to keep these in mind and refer back to this thread when making buying decisions in the future.

 

It’s ok to be picky.  I am the same way about paper.  I have tried so many of the popular papers for fountain pens, and was mostly surprised not to like Rhodia, it’s not that I can find any real fault with the paper itself, I just don’t like the way it feels.  There is a sort of stickiness to it, almost a dragging feeling with the nib - the last pad I bought was the Premium, which I think is the 90gsm, and I like it better…but still no love!!!
 

If you are looking for paper in notebook form, Kleid notebooks are great.  I have a few from Yoseka Stationary.  I believe they are only available in a teeny graph format, smooth, slightly absorbent with no feathering, and no bleed through.  I also like the Endless Recorder hardback journals, which are TR 68gsm.  As for the Tomoe River, the loose packs you can get from Jetpens the 68gsm is very nice, a little thicker than the 52gsm.  Yes, so many choices out there…but that’s a good thing.  I use a lot of different papers, depending on my mood.  It would be boring to use the same paper all of the time.

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3 hours ago, stalepie said:

I wonder if Exceed and Paperage notebooks are good choices

 

The Exceed notebooks are the ones that were favorably reviewed by Fountain Pen Love and that were stocked at Walmart as their Bullet Journal notebook that I mentioned above. They definitely seem like they might be a good choice for you. Also, since you like absorbent paper at the moment, you might try looking specifically for papers that people call "okay but not great" for fountain pens. Most people, when they talk about fountain pen friendly paper, are looking for very non-absorbent papers, because these papers tend to show off sheen and shading more. However, a black ink pen will be the least impressive on such papers unless you want more of the color of the black ink to show through instead of just getting a straight black. If you just want a solid black ink line (such as from the PIlot Precise pens), then using more absorbent paper will get you there easier. That means, ironically, going for slightly *less* "fountain pen friendly" papers, because you don't want those extra characteristics. 

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3 hours ago, stalepie said:

I don't know why I've become so picky...

 

So many choices.

 

It's great to be able to discover what you really like! A sample pack of paper will probably be a really good idea rather than trying to stock up on papers without knowing if you will like them.

 

3 hours ago, stalepie said:

It might be that I like medium nibs more than I realized, but because I was used to cheap paper I didn't realize nicer paper "tightened" up the flow (as it seems to do on Midori MD - my fine nib Lamy pen writes more like the Pilot Metropolitan fine did, whereas on cheaper paper it feathers more and draws a thicker line, and the Metro stays better behaved).

 

I'd also like to encourage you to take advantage of the fact that you're using a Lamy CP1. Lamy has an excellent modular nib system, and their nibs are very easy to work with.  It's very inexpensive to pick up some different sizes of Lamy steel nibs. These are quite good nibs, and you can try a range of different nib sizes with the exact same feed and pen, thus getting a very good idea of which one you like better, from Lamy at least. 

 

Moreover, by adjusting the tine gap at the tip of the nib, Lamy pens are very amenable to adjusting their total ink flow, so you can get any nib size adjusted to be drier or wetter, and that can make a big difference. That's probably something you needn't worry about just yet, but it's something that you can play with to get what you want. Of course, it's best to start at the tipping size (F, M, B, etc.) that best suits you first, and then tweak after that. 

 

It's very possible that you prefer the fine nib size on absorbent paper, but will like a broader nib on less absorbent paper. Also, with a nice broad nib, you can get a satisfyingly wet layer of ink and that glistening wet line can be very pleasing. Of course, you get that effect much more with less absorbent papers. 

 

And a final thought. It's totally okay to prefer plain paper that isn't "fountain pen friendly"! Plenty of people will get a nib and ink that works well with plain paper and then never bother trying to get nicer paper. The only reason some paper is considered nicer than other paper is the subjective assessment that people give it (outside of things like archival properties). Don't let yourself feel obligated to get "premium" paper just because. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

It's great to be able to discover what you really like! A sample pack of paper will probably be a really good idea rather than trying to stock up on papers without knowing if you will like them.

 

 

I'd also like to encourage you to take advantage of the fact that you're using a Lamy CP1. Lamy has an excellent modular nib system, and their nibs are very easy to work with.  It's very inexpensive to pick up some different sizes of Lamy steel nibs. These are quite good nibs, and you can try a range of different nib sizes with the exact same feed and pen, thus getting a very good idea of which one you like better, from Lamy at least. 

 

Moreover, by adjusting the tine gap at the tip of the nib, Lamy pens are very amenable to adjusting their total ink flow, so you can get any nib size adjusted to be drier or wetter, and that can make a big difference. That's probably something you needn't worry about just yet, but it's something that you can play with to get what you want. Of course, it's best to start at the tipping size (F, M, B, etc.) that best suits you first, and then tweak after that. 

 

I was just watching some videos about nib adjustment. Micro mesh paper and twisting it with your fingernails and baby bottom and things like that. I might play with it a little. I probably already did bend it when doing a lot of practice lines to test how it writes. Or I might not have cleaned it properly between inks. 

 

6 hours ago, arcfide said:

It's very possible that you prefer the fine nib size on absorbent paper, but will like a broader nib on less absorbent paper. Also, with a nice broad nib, you can get a satisfyingly wet layer of ink and that glistening wet line can be very pleasing. Of course, you get that effect much more with less absorbent papers. 

 

Yes, that is what I was thinking. I'm surprised more companies don't make their nibs easier to change out with alternatives (instead of buying a whole new pen). 

 

6 hours ago, arcfide said:

And a final thought. It's totally okay to prefer plain paper that isn't "fountain pen friendly"! Plenty of people will get a nib and ink that works well with plain paper and then never bother trying to get nicer paper. The only reason some paper is considered nicer than other paper is the subjective assessment that people give it (outside of things like archival properties). Don't let yourself feel obligated to get "premium" paper just because. 

 

Yeah I just wanted to get a taste of the fountain pen experience, to know what it was like, but wasn't sure I'd have much to write. So I wanted to make a few good choices initially. 

 

Thanks for all the advice.

 

6 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

The Exceed notebooks are the ones that were favorably reviewed by Fountain Pen Love and that were stocked at Walmart as their Bullet Journal notebook that I mentioned above. They definitely seem like they might be a good choice for you. Also, since you like absorbent paper at the moment, you might try looking specifically for papers that people call "okay but not great" for fountain pens. Most people, when they talk about fountain pen friendly paper, are looking for very non-absorbent papers, because these papers tend to show off sheen and shading more. However, a black ink pen will be the least impressive on such papers unless you want more of the color of the black ink to show through instead of just getting a straight black. If you just want a solid black ink line (such as from the PIlot Precise pens), then using more absorbent paper will get you there easier. That means, ironically, going for slightly *less* "fountain pen friendly" papers, because you don't want those extra characteristics. 

 

Admittedly I started getting drawn into the aesthetics of some of these higher class notebooks (like the Midori), admiring their minimalistic style, and fine craftsmanship, and Exceed and Paperage didn't excite there. But now I feel snobbish. (shrug). I'll find something else... I would say Midori just writes better with that Metropolitan pen I have and it probably does great with much better pens, gold nibbed pens, that I don't have, so I should not have made a post like this, when I really don't have enough experience with this to comment. It was stupid of me. 

 

8 hours ago, Geslina said:

It’s ok to be picky.  I am the same way about paper.  I have tried so many of the popular papers for fountain pens, and was mostly surprised not to like Rhodia, it’s not that I can find any real fault with the paper itself, I just don’t like the way it feels.  There is a sort of stickiness to it, almost a dragging feeling with the nib - the last pad I bought was the Premium, which I think is the 90gsm, and I like it better…but still no love!!!
 

If you are looking for paper in notebook form, Kleid notebooks are great.  I have a few from Yoseka Stationary.  I believe they are only available in a teeny graph format, smooth, slightly absorbent with no feathering, and no bleed through.  I also like the Endless Recorder hardback journals, which are TR 68gsm.  As for the Tomoe River, the loose packs you can get from Jetpens the 68gsm is very nice, a little thicker than the 52gsm.  Yes, so many choices out there…but that’s a good thing.  I use a lot of different papers, depending on my mood.  It would be boring to use the same paper all of the time.

 

Had not heard of Kleid. Thanks, Geslina. Yoseka I've heard of. The graph paper thing surprised me, its popularity with fountain pen users. I'd think people wouldn't want lines. But I guess it depends what they're doing. 

 

Might get some TR loose sheets for letter writing. The Hobonichi Plain books (grid) is a good buy in terms of paper count, and that Galen Leather one too ($32), offers a lot of Tomoe River paper, and Seven Seas (~$27) looked good as well. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Azulado said:

I don't know the Neon notebook shown in the link, but the brand (Tilibra) is very well known, it can be found anywhere in Brazil.
Tilibra preferably uses 56 gsm papers, but also works with other weights. There are 56 gsm papers that are very good with ink, but their characteristics are very different from those of the most popular papers for FP enthusiasts. They are usually absorbent and do not highlight colors. I would define it as a cheap paper ideal for use with an F nib and a royal blue ink. In Tilibra's review, you can see a photo of one of these notebooks.
Tilibra has infinite references. You can find numerous paper qualities. Every time you buy a notebook it is a lottery.
The closest to Rhodia or Oxford are the Académie and Happy 90 g/m² A4. In other sizes the grammage changes. The Happy is the best.
I wrote to the company to give my opinion and suggest new products. I was told that Happy and Académie may have different suppliers, hence the subtle differences in quality. But they are brands that belong to the same group, even Tilibra is written on the sheets. The company, a Brazilian giant, belongs to the multinational, I think American, ACCO. I don't know who defines the product specifications. There are other Brazilian manufacturers that also belong to ACCO.
Canson launched an A4 notebook of the Happy type. The paper was of good quality, but has a tendency to bleed through. I was going to do a review, but the notebook I had just bought was of worse quality than the first one I bought. The tendency to bleed was intolerable for that type of premium paper. I wrote to the Company, but they gave me no explanation, they are just going to replace the notebook.
For the Neon shown in the link I would never pay 10 dollars. The Happy costs 5 dollars.

There are also 90 g/m² Tilibra journals, but the paper is very different from the Happy. It is glassy, but absorbent and with some very wet nibs it can bleed. 

 

Thanks for all the information. I'll try to keep it in mind when shopping. Which one is Oxford? These here? Think I've seen those. 

 

I was interested in Roaring Springs once I realized they were the originators of the marble cover composition books so many others copy, but they don't get good recommendations for watery inks (fountain pen use), that I can tell. (Well, maybe. The most recent review there does mention fp use). 

 

So many choices, and so little time... 

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5 hours ago, stalepie said:

Which one is Oxford?

Oxford is a very popular brand in Europe. From what I have read in some reviews, it's sold in the UK as Oxford Black n' Red.

https://www.my-oxford.com/gb-en/oxford-black-n-red-535/oxford-black-n-red-wirebound-notebooks

https://www.my-oxford.com/es-es/optik-paper

Many people prefer it to Rhodia. But there are also those who criticize the plasticized texture of the paper.

I have not been able to test it. I was going to order from a German Ebay store, but they charged shipping per notebook. I opted then to order two Pelikan Collegeblock (they charged me only one shipping) and it was quite a discovery.

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/365571-pelikan-collegeblock-a4-90-gm²/#comment-4521947

Canson imported Oxford in Brazil. But it replaced it with a notebook of its own manufacture, which does not have the same quality.

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12 hours ago, arcfide said:

Moreover, by adjusting the tine gap at the tip of the nib, Lamy pens are very amenable to adjusting their total ink flow, so you can get any nib size adjusted to be drier or wetter, and that can make a big difference. That's probably something you needn't worry about just yet, but it's something that you can play with to get what you want. Of course, it's best to start at the tipping size (F, M, B, etc.) that best suits you first, and then tweak after that. 

Finally someone understood what the key to Lamy nibs is. I realized by chance, my Lamy M wrote acceptably on copy papers, but was stingy on the Rhodia. I opened up the nibs a bit and the difference was abysmal. The tips were no longer touching at their end. But the flow seemed excessive on other papers, so I reduced the groove distance a bit and it was perfect.
I took the Rhodia pattern for other fountain pens and the result was successful. Thus I managed to turn my Faber-Castell Ambition M into a dream pen. They are minimal adjustments, let's say 0.02 mm, but they make a difference.

Indeed, Lamy nibs are the easiest to adjust.

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5 hours ago, Azulado said:

Oxford is a very popular brand in Europe. From what I have read in some reviews, it's sold in the UK as Oxford Black n' Red.

https://www.my-oxford.com/gb-en/oxford-black-n-red-535/oxford-black-n-red-wirebound-notebooks

https://www.my-oxford.com/es-es/optik-paper

Many people prefer it to Rhodia. But there are also those who criticize the plasticized texture of the paper.

I have not been able to test it. I was going to order from a German Ebay store, but they charged shipping per notebook. I opted then to order two Pelikan Collegeblock (they charged me only one shipping) and it was quite a discovery.

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/365571-pelikan-collegeblock-a4-90-gm²/#comment-4521947

Canson imported Oxford in Brazil. But it replaced it with a notebook of its own manufacture, which does not have the same quality.

 

Thanks. The Optik paper looks good. I wish I could find a blank notebook, though, not ruled. I guess they dropped the "Oxford" from their name for sale in the U.S. because of that other brand already using it. 

 

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On 5/3/2022 at 3:52 AM, stalepie said:

What kind of paper did people in America (my country) use for fountain pens before the Internet? I mean, were they always importing from Japan and France? It seems odd.

I went to the States in the 90s and bought there some great locally made notebooks that were absolutely FP friendly. But then, I rarely found paper that wasn't anywhere.

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On 5/3/2022 at 11:24 AM, stalepie said:

 

These will likely do fine. I meant to pick up Rhodia pads recently in a store's sale, but held off. I think it bugged me that I learned the paper in their webbies was different (slightly? 90 gsm vs 80 gsm) of the paper in their more famous notepads.

 

 

Will keep these in mind. I've seen them. I like that the Japanese notebooks often are built to lay flat, which seems like a good quality, and did not like the ring binders of the Black n Reds.

 

They're probably all good choices, though.

 

 

Midori MD Cotton put me off because of the higher price, and some people saying they prefered regular MD, but I'll definitely take a look at th Strathmore Writing Paper, as I see it comes in 500 ream packages for fairly little money (though more expensive than HP Premium's 32 line). Do they make notebooks? I'll look around.

 

I don't know why I've become so picky...

 

So many choices. Thank you so much. I'll try to keep these in mind and refer back to this thread when making buying decisions in the future.

 

Strathmore writing paper has a bit of tooth. So if you hated Midor, you will not like Strathmore. I find Midori not toothy at all. Are you using a lot of pressure when you write?

 

Try the Rhodia. It is the opposite of Midori, and is probably the cheapest per page option.

 

If you want a Seven Seas Notebook, Droomgoles has them in stock. I do not care for Tomoe River, since I like to use both sides, and write for at least 6 hours a day. So I cannot justify its cost.

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On 5/4/2022 at 9:56 AM, stalepie said:

 

Thanks. The Optik paper looks good. I wish I could find a blank notebook, though, not ruled. I guess they dropped the "Oxford" from their name for sale in the U.S. because of that other brand already using it. 

 

You can buy Oxford Optik in pads from Amazon. I believe it is around $28 for 3  300 sheet  refills.

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For me, I find Midori MD more noticeably draggy on medium nibs than finer nibs. Tomoe River 68gsm notebooks feel "great" to me at any size I have tried.  I have found that my perception of feel, show through etc. doesn't always match up with reviews – feel especially, but sometimes I even see objectionable bleed-through for my ink on a paper where I didn't expect it based on what I have read, so I have ended up trying a few and liking the TR the best with Tsubame Fools and Maruman MNEMOSYNE as fallbacks if I can't get the TR in the future.  Also, I've tried several art shop drawing pads and had good results if you want heavy paper and some texture.  Clairefontaine notebooks also have good paper, but it's much harder to get them to lay flat which is another quality I look for.  Also, I like to use blank books so I can put my own writing guides behind them and that can be quite limiting when shopping as well!  Oh and I like thinner paper so I fit a lot in because I have multiple hobbies competing for space.  Paper is complicated!

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31 minutes ago, Strega said:

Also, I like to use blank books so I can put my own writing guides behind them and that can be quite limiting when shopping as well!  Oh and I like thinner paper so I fit a lot in because I have multiple hobbies competing for space.  Paper is complicated!

 

You might like Stalogy.  Comes wit a dot grid that's faint enough not to be intrusive.  I use the grid for layout, and a guide sheet for writing.  Japanese lightweight paper.  A little heavier than TR 52, but lighter than TR 68.

"Simplicate and add Lightness."

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1 hour ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

Strathmore writing paper has a bit of tooth. So if you hated Midor, you will not like Strathmore. I find Midori not toothy at all. Are you using a lot of pressure when you write?

 

Try the Rhodia. It is the opposite of Midori, and is probably the cheapest per page option.

 

If you want a Seven Seas Notebook, Droomgoles has them in stock. I do not care for Tomoe River, since I like to use both sides, and write for at least 6 hours a day. So I cannot justify its cost.

 

I'm liking the Midori MD notebook more now. I don' tknow what my problem was before. I think it was that Lamy nib that was acting up. It works better with the Metropolitan, and now even with the Lamy pen. Maybe there was an ink issue after I changed inks. I might edit my opening post in the thread to make it clear I don't hate Midori.

 

1 hour ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

You can buy Oxford Optik in pads from Amazon. I believe it is around $28 for 3  300 sheet  refills.

 

OK, I'll look into it. I asked the company if they would sell blank notebooks of Black n Red in the states and they said they will consider it for stocking in the future, but linked me to these Hamelin notebooks, with college ruled and graph options:

 

https://www.hamelin.store/collections/all

 

and those use Optik paper as well. So another option if you want something different looking than the Black n Red style. The 3-subject 90-sheet notebook is a little pricey compared to the 1-subject 70-sheet option, but they still the 1-subjects in value packs and 3 and 6, such as this one for $13.99:

 

Value Pack, Spiral Notebooks Flexible Covered College Ruled 70 sheets - Hamelin Notebooks

 

12 minutes ago, Strega said:

For me, I find Midori MD more noticeably draggy on medium nibs than finer nibs. Tomoe River 68gsm notebooks feel "great" to me at any size I have tried.  I have found that my perception of feel, show through etc. doesn't always match up with reviews – feel especially, but sometimes I even see objectionable bleed-through for my ink on a paper where I didn't expect it based on what I have read, so I have ended up trying a few and liking the TR the best with Tsubame Fools and Maruman MNEMOSYNE as fallbacks if I can't get the TR in the future.  Also, I've tried several art shop drawing pads and had good results if you want heavy paper and some texture.  Clairefontaine notebooks also have good paper, but it's much harder to get them to lay flat which is another quality I look for.  Also, I like to use blank books so I can put my own writing guides behind them and that can be quite limiting when shopping as well!  Oh and I like thinner paper so I fit a lot in because I have multiple hobbies competing for space.  Paper is complicated!

 

Yes it is! More complicated than I expected. I'll definitely have to try the TR sometime. I think it might be nice for letter writing (thinner sheets = easier to stuff into envelopes). I see some people prefer the thinner 52 gsm and others the 68 gsm, and also differing opinions on white and cream colored.

 

I really don't see much showthrough at all on my Midori notebook. When I was back to reviews of it, I noticed that was a common complaint (though most people raved about the notebooks -- but when there was someone unhappy, they said there was too much ghosting). I'm only using fine nibs, though, and my ink may not be particularly wet. That did make me wonder if they'd changed their paper any since those older reviews were written, though.

 

Had not heard of Tsubame Fools, but Maruman Mnemosyne looked pretty good. Think I've seen The Ink Guy on YouTube use that one.

 

There was a Clairefontaine notebook I was looking at that looked OK, the "Clairefontaine Classic Clothbound A5 Notebook - Blank," I think. I was about to check the name, but the Goulet Pens site is malfunctioning at the moment.

 

9 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

 

You might like Stalogy.  Comes wit a dot grid, that's faint enough not to be intrusive.  I use the grid for layout, and a guide sheet for writing.  Japanese lightweight paper.  A little heavier than TR 52, but lighter than TR 68.

 

Thanks. I've heard of that one. It might be in one of my wishlists. The Hobonichi Plain notebook with lots of Tomoe River paper caught my eye early on. So I was thinking of getting that one, despite it being grids.

 

I'll probably be happy with any of these. Thanks for all the advice everyone! Much appreciated.

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13 minutes ago, stalepie said:

Maybe there was an ink issue after I changed inks.

A simple ink change can take a pen that was scratch-city and turn it into glide-heaven.  And the finer the nib, the more noticeable the impact of the ink.  (Of course, if you just cleaned the pen and refilled with the same ink, then ink's not likely the explanation, unless you happened to shake up the bottle and it's one of those inks that needs that.)

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2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

You might like Stalogy.  Comes wit a dot grid that's faint enough not to be intrusive.  I use the grid for layout, and a guide sheet for writing.  Japanese lightweight paper.  A little heavier than TR 52, but lighter than TR 68.

 

I tried that, but with my first test (Pelikan 4001 Black) I got some of what I call "wormholing" where there were individual spots here and there where the ink seemed to come almost all the way through.  It never really did get all the way - just far enough to be distracting.  I'll try some other inks.

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9 hours ago, Strega said:

 

I tried that, but with my first test (Pelikan 4001 Black) I got some of what I call "wormholing" where there were individual spots here and there where the ink seemed to come almost all the way through.  It never really did get all the way - just far enough to be distracting.  I'll try some other inks.

 

There are a few otherwise great papers that are subject to that. I think the typical term is "spot bleeding". Stalogy is, IMO, a bit like the Leuchtterm1917 of Japan. Good, solid, simple setups, but with paper that isn't going to bring out the absolute best possible qualities of every ink or pen, and that can sometimes exhibit a few annoyances. Apica A.Silky 865 Premium paper is another one like that. It's terrific paper whose only real flaw is its tendency to have more spot bleeding. 

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Yes, I had the same effect on the Apica and it surprised me even more because my initial impression was that the paper was quite "substantial".

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1 hour ago, Strega said:

Yes, I had the same effect on the Apica and it surprised me even more because my initial impression was that the paper was quite "substantial".

 

One way to exacerbate this with some papers is to write without protecting the surface from your hand oils. Some papers are highly susceptible to surface abrasion and collecting oils on the page, which can interfere with the paper's ability to hold ink properly.

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Posted (edited)

I've tried the Midori notebook now with a Platinum Preppy (medium nib, their included blue-black ink cartridge) and it writes perfectly smooth. No problems. I think that Lamy pen is just a little scratchy.

 

So I wish I had not been so quick to judge the Midori paper, being inexperienced with this hobby. Probably all papers and pen and ink combinations can have their issues. But thank you for the recommendations.

 

I will try out some other notebooks too. I hope the information is a help to someone else who may be browsing the forums.

Edited by stalepie
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