Noodler's ink - dangerous to pens?

[mge01park]

I've bought way too many Neponsets and Ahabs and the others as well Konrad and the original regular FP. I use Noodler's Ink in these pens primarily and haven't had any problems. I stopped counting Noodler's bottles some years ago and have a sickening number of them and have even bought several recently. I try to stick with the manufacturers' ink to the pen on most inks, if I can, not too hard to do. No guarantees in life. 

[amberleadavis]

I have more than a hundred Noodler's inks and love them.

[TSherbs]

On 6/25/2022 at 7:35 PM, awa54 said:

 

I personally, am not "tell(ing) people not to buy those inks", just making certain that anyone not familiar with the "traits" that many Noodler's inks possess may be of benefit or of harm, depending on use case.

stating that they are "safe" without suggesting some caution in their use does new and potential users of the product line a disservice and may well contribute to negative brand awareness.

 

as with any manufacturer, ink makers will eventually have a "bad batch" (or in the case of SITB, it's often a hygiene issue on the bottling line), I'll choose not to replace my R&K ink that was affected for a while, in the hope that the issue will be sorted and any affected stock recalled from retailers. you can make that risk assessment based on your own parameters ...I personally don't love clogged feeds, mold inside my pens, or dumping $10 down the drain 😟

 

there's plenty of debate and misapprehension around IG inks: historical IG formulas were much harsher than most modern ones and could easily damage a modern reservoir pen, however the great majority of commercially available IG inks these days are not corrosive enough to cause immediate damage to fountain pens *if used correctly* which (much like Noodler's inks), involves not allowing ink to dry down in the pen and frequent/thorough flushes (at least compared to when using benign inks). Pelikan blue-black is a generally safe, if somewhat dry writing ink, that I've used with no ill effects in both modern and vintage pens for 40 years (it used to be available at stationers in the US until comparatively recently).

you also need to be mindful of sediment in IG inks, as that indicates that the active agent is degrading, as well as the sediment being a potential blockage hazard.

 

pigment inks (that don't contain a binder) are in a similar boat: with careful use that avoids dry down and thorough flushes eliminating most problems. staining is possible though, so again, caution and common sense are in order.

 

...so are these inks "dangerous"? I think in most cases they aren't ...until they are. which is why I would advise gaining experience with any of the above inks in inexpensive, easily replaced pens, before committing to use them in valuable, scarce or favorite pens ...and in some cases opting not to use them if they seem to be incompatible.

 

examples:

less corrosion resistant nib, or steel/brass/aluminum internal parts that come in contact with ink = no IG

pen with a poor cap seal (dries easily) = no pigment inks, IG inks or highly saturated inks

pens with hard to disassemble feed systems = no pigment or saturated ink, *unless* you will be certain to never allow the pen to dry out with ink inside

 

there are many other cases that may disqualify the use of a specific ink, but once you have broad experience with many different ink types, they'll become self evident!

 

have fun with ink

don't wreck your pens

don't confuse Wisdom with Hate

 

This is a wise post. Thank you for stating it. After I had collected enough pens (nearly all under $100, and mostly under $50), I realized that what I was doing was very close to what you recommend with certain types of inks: you use them in certain kinds of pens, especially according to how easily they can be cleaned. I have been enjoying some shimmer inks recently, but only in pens that I can completely disassemble for cleaning. They don't "hurt" the pen, but I don't always write enough to use up the pen-fill in a timely manner, so to avoid crudtastrope, I limit them to pens easy to pull apart. 

[Arkanabar]

I've used Noodler's inks in my modern pens, including my M200 and M400 Pelikans.  I got a bit of staining in my M200's ink window after a few years of it being more or less continuously filled with Noodler's Red-Black.  One fill of cleaner ink (MontBlanc-Simplo Black with SuperCleaner SC21, in the gold "space capsule" bottle) corrected that.

 

If you wish to lower this risk, you can dilute any of Noodler's black inks (particularly Black, Black Eel, Bad Black Moccasin, and Heart of Darkness) by perhaps as much as 1:1.  I use Noodler's inks in modern pens without fear.  The only things I've heard of Noodler's harming are rubber ink sacs (and I've used Noodler's in my Esterbrook SJ without issue, but I don't use that pen very much) and some Lamy feeds, but not in the last decade or so.

 

My wife let Bad Black Moccasin dry in a Nib Creaper, and cotton swabs haven't removed it.  I haven't disassembled the pen yet, but she doesn't really like it.  Her favorites are her Lamy Logo, and a couple Dryden Design pens made in China (one F, one semi-hooded XF).  I don't fill her pens with Noodler's BBM any more.  For blacks, they get either a manufacturer's ink (e.g. Quink, current MB, or Pelikan when I get some), J. Herbin Perle Noire (again, once I get some), or Heart of Darkness diluted 2:1.  If worse comes to worst, I can get a little ultrasonic cleaner and drop the nib/section units in there for 20s or so.

 

I now use BBM in an Indian pen bought from Fountain Pen Revolution, and cheap Chinese pens like the Hero 616 and Jinha 51A, always diluted 1:1.  FPR's Indian pens are easily fully disassembled, and I can scrub the feed with a toothbrush any time I feel the need.  But what I typically do is clean the pen out, and never leave BBM to dry out in a pen.

 

On 3/9/2022 at 3:05 PM, Ron Z said:

Cue the flame war, and get out the fire extinguishers.....  There are some very strong feelings on this subject.

 

I suggest that you listen to the people in the pen shops, and read the article by Richard Binder on inks. 

 

I think that as long as we continue to keep away from personally insulting each other, we will be ok. /|;^)

 

On 3/11/2022 at 10:14 PM, Fuzzy_Bear said:

Though Binder is an excellent source of information I do not use good info solely.  I use Noodlers in any pen I own, Pelikan  m600. 200, or any other pen.

 

Except Noodlers Baystate line if inks. They go in one pen.

 

Oh, yes, do be careful about Baystate colors (Baystate Blue, Baystate Concord Grape, and Baystate Cape Cod Cranberry).  There's strong evidence that, when mixed with non-Baystate inks, they form a sludge.  Most people who love these inks too much to leave them alone have a specific pen for just those inks, as they can be very difficult to completely clear from a pen.

 

On 3/17/2022 at 9:41 AM, dftr said:

what is this microbiological contamination?  you have an eldrith octopus invading an ink bottle as your profile pic?  are you talking about mold?

 

Inks can host bacteria, yeast, or mold.  Don't keep them near your houseplants, as both the plants and their soils are teeming with a microbiome that will happily colonize your ink given the chance.

 

On 6/18/2022 at 12:33 PM, Al-Muizz 953 said:

The ink flow was uncontrollable on my Lamy AL-Star.  I flushed it out, cleaned the pen, and filled it with Diamine Blue-Black, and it works fine.  My concern is not so much the damage issue but that the ink flow was just uncontrollably wet.  It is clear the issue is the ink and not the pen — a different pen would still have this issue with 54th Massachusetts.

 

I had similar issues with Noodler's Borealis Black, the most featherocious ink I've ever yet encountered.  Dilution tamed and reduced the feathering, but I suspect part of the issue was the inexpensive work copy paper I was writing on.  Among the things diluted are the surfactants that lower the ink's surface tension.  Lowering the quantity of surfactant will increase surface tension, which will (in theory) reduce overall flow.  And the vast majority of Noodler's inks have such high dye loads that you are unlikely to notice.  Dilution also corrected the smudging issue I had with Noodler's Red-Black.

 

As a final word, I will echo that some inks don't do well with some pens, and that a number of pen issues can be corrected by changing your ink.  I wouldn't discard an ink unless it misbehaved in every pen I owned.  And given my desire to give away pens (each with a bottle of ink), I'm inclined to hold on to even the inks I don't like.

[dftr]

One observation is that it will often be recommended to use xyz ink in a cheap pen.  I thought the same when starting w shimmering inks. I used a lamy w calligraphy nib. I dont like the grip. It is one of the cheapest pens I have. 
 

I spent too much time trying to get the god damned glitter out.  While it would have been more stressful w a pen I like and use often, I realize that I do not have throw away fountain pens…. 
 

as for mold, I didnt think of plants. I happen to keep my inks well away on a dry shelf.  Some companies say their inks have antibacterial or anti mold (i think colorverse or wearinguul) but fortunately i only had issue w this one bad batch years ago. 

[awa54]

10 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

I have more than a hundred Noodler's inks and love them.

 

I was going to ask how many duplicates or show special inks it takes to get over 100...

 

then I went to noodlersink.com and found 154 products listed in the "ink" category 😲 🤣

 

I know Nathan keeps busy, but DAMN! that's a lot of ink!!!

[amberleadavis]

7 hours ago, awa54 said:

 

I was going to ask how many duplicates or show special inks it takes to get over 100...

 

then I went to noodlersink.com and found 154 products listed in the "ink" category 😲 🤣

 

I know Nathan keeps busy, but DAMN! that's a lot of ink!!!

 

And a few of my favorites are really hard to find, but if you want an all around great ink.  Noodler's Purple is the one.

[Uncial]

I think we may have reached the point at which this exact topic has more threads than Noodler's has inks.....and that's sayin somethin.

[awa54]

1 hour ago, amberleadavis said:

 

And a few of my favorites are really hard to find, but if you want an all around great ink.  Noodler's Purple is the one.

 

I got a bottle of La Reine Mauve many years ago and didn't love it... Waterman might be my favorite, though Diamine has a goodly number of purple shades that I like as well.

 

maybe the plain old purple will have to join my Noodler's collection (right now only Lexington Gray gets regular use), I do like a good purple!

[Mayo]

I never had issues with their inks so far. Both my kawecos have been inked with Noodler's X-Feather Blue and Red-Black for several months without any issues, my Lamy al-star is on it's third filling of Noodler's Black, and I've used Black Rose in Australian Roses for some weeks in my Parker Vacumatic without any problems. I have had it opened to check the diaphragm and it seemed to be fine. That said, I always do the most thorough cleaning possible on my pens when changing inks, so I can't say much about problems with them mixing with other formulas.

The only Noodler's ink I've had stain a pen was X-Feather blue on the Kaweco pen section (not any other pens interestingly enough). It did clean off after some scrubbing with just water.

If you're using a vintage pen with an ink sac you might want to stick with well tested and established ink options, but for any modern piston filler pen I wouldn't hesitate to use Noodler's ink.

[Arkanabar]

11 hours ago, dftr said:

One observation is that it will often be recommended to use xyz ink in a cheap pen.  I thought the same when starting w shimmering inks. I used a lamy w calligraphy nib. I dont like the grip. It is one of the cheapest pens I have. 
 

I spent too much time trying to get the god damned glitter out.  While it would have been more stressful w a pen I like and use often, I realize that I do not have throw away fountain pens…. 
 

as for mold, I didnt think of plants. I happen to keep my inks well away on a dry shelf.  Some companies say their inks have antibacterial or anti mold (i think colorverse or wearinguul) but fortunately i only had issue w this one bad batch years ago. 

If I ever open the glitter inks my wife has bought (Emerald de Chivor and Stormy Seas), they will go into a pen from FPR that I know I can knock down to constituent parts.

3 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

 

And a few of my favorites are really hard to find, but if you want an all around great ink.  Noodler's Purple is the one.

Noodler's Purple is my essential purple, gorgeous like Waterman Tender Purple, but far more lightfast.

[CRASHtheGREY]

3 hours ago, Uncial said:

I think we may have reached the point at which this exact topic has more threads than Noodler's has inks.....and that's sayin somethin.

Kind of impressive, actually.

[inkstainedruth]

17 hours ago, awa54 said:

 

I got a bottle of La Reine Mauve many years ago and didn't love it... Waterman might be my favorite, though Diamine has a goodly number of purple shades that I like as well.

No, I didn't like that one either -- I describe it as "nib creep, section creep, how the heck did it get on the HEEL of my hand creep...."  But there are other Noodler's inks I would NEVER want to be without.  

Of course I could say that about pretty much every ink brand I've ever tried -- liked some, didn't like others (and the dislike could be the color OR the behavior).  And of course in some cases, the inks didn't do well in a specific pen (Iroshizuku Yama-guri was too wet for a Pelikan M400, but Noodler's Walnut -- which was too dry for my Platinum Plaisir, which turned out to be a dry writer -- was a great combination with that same M400).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[ErrantSmudge]

On 6/26/2022 at 4:59 AM, Al-Muizz 953 said:

Noodler's 54th Mass [...] seemed to have more than the usual amount of nib creep and was quite wet on the page, resulting in considerable feathering at least on some paper

 

This behavior is pretty normal for Noodler's 'bulletproof' ink formulations.  They tend to have a lot of nib creep and leave a wider line on the page than most other inks.

[mge01park]

On 6/27/2022 at 9:36 PM, Arkanabar said:

 

Noodler's Purple is my essential purple, gorgeous like Waterman Tender Purple, but far more lightfast.

Thanks for the recommendation going to try that one out. 

[TSherbs]

On 6/20/2022 at 5:25 PM, awa54 said:

 

OP: my personal experiences with eel and polar eel inks have been pretty lackluster, with feathering and bleed issues aplenty and no magical improvements in piston mechanism function over other quality inks, YMMV...

 

 

yes Nathan pushes the envelope, and yes, many Noodler's inks are comparatively well behaved, however *many more* Noodler's inks do have at least minor issues that can manifest differently in various pen designs:

 

first and of least concern in most cases, is that a majority of them are very colorant dense and can cause clogging in pens that don't either get used every day, or have average or worse cap seals. for the most part that issue can be remedied by diluting the ink by 20-40% with water and/or never letting the ink dry completely in a pen.

then there's the issue of staining; many of these same colors cause staining of plastics, *most* of it isn't permanent, but sometimes it is and if a pen isn't easily disassembled to allow cleaning of internal surfaces (Pelikan piston fillers for example) it might as well be permanent.

also, some colors *seem* to promote sac degradation (I have no rigorous testing to prove this, only long experience with pens that had sacs fail after prolonged Noodler's use, which had been fine with other more traditional formulas of ink).

Add to the above "quirks" that feathering, bleed and very wet flow are common traits for Noodler's inks and I think you can argue that as a brand they are NOT trouble-free and universally safe inks.

 

this in no way detracts from the excellent writing characteristics of many colors, the novel and sometimes amazing properties found in the line, or the vast array of gorgeous colors that are available from Nathan's Mad Ink Science Lab!

 

my advice to those who wish to venture forth into the world of Noodler's inks, is to tread cautiously until you know an ink's strengths and failings before you commit to using it regularly in your favorite pens and expect to use pen cleaner or dilute ammonia to get your pen clean after having had Noodler's ink in it for more than an hour or two.

 

please don't read this as a hate post against Noodler's (I've met Nathan and think both he and his inks are awesome), just a realistic assessment of what to expect from the brand.

also note that all of the same issues can be found in other makers' ink as well and many of those don't have the redeeming qualities of similarly affected Noodler's products.

 

 

this is a great post

 

well put

[amberleadavis]

@awa54

The best use of the eel inks, in my experience, is stain removal. Use a fill of an eel ink and it really does clean out the pen.

[awa54]

5 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

@awa54

The best use of the eel inks, in my experience, is stain removal. Use a fill of an eel ink and it really does clean out the pen.

 

 

good to know!

I may actually use mine again in light of that feature.

[Sholom]

If, like me, you tend to leave ink in your pens for too long periods, where the ink starts to dry out and concentrate, then some Noodler's inks will turn some sacs into mush (as opposed to just forming dry ink chips and hardening the sac like old-time inks did). The answer is to either empty your pens more frequently or restrict (some) Noodler's inks to cartridge/converter pens or easily cleanable and part replaceable pens. I've kept Ottoman Azure in a Parker 45 for many months on end without incident. Noodler's Turquoise will destroy a latex sac if it dries out, so it lives in an inexpensive Wing Sung with what I think is a PVC (translucent) sac. Nightshade also has had no effect on a Parker 45 converter even though, with an accountant nib, the pen only gets filled 2-3 times a year. FPN Van Gough Starry Night (a Noodler's ink) has had no effect on an Osmiroid 65 with latex sac as long as I don't let the pen sit empty without rinsing out residual ink. Green Marine has lived in a Waterman converter (Phileas pen) for many refills over the past 15 or so years without ill effect. I also have Noodler's inks in Pelikan 120 Mark IIs (Eel Blue and [discontinued] Tahitian Pearl) and Pilot Metropolitans (Aircorps Blue-Black and a mix of three inks) and a 78G (discontinued Aquamarine Contract ink). I wouldn't put these inks in my Sheaffer Vac-fil or Snorkel and would be reluctant to put them in my Parker 51s (although some people have had no problem with them in 51s). I think the important thing with any of the modern, more concentrated inks is to not let them concentrate or dry out in your pens, the same as is true for iron-gall inks. Remember that latex sacs are rather porous to water vapor, which is why inks darken in some pens. Losing water means that all the other ink ingredients are becoming more concentrated, and if they are already more concentrated than traditional inks to begin with then there is less margin for bad pen maintenance with these inks.

 

As far as mold and slime in inks, part of the problem is that restrictions on more toxic preservatives has narrowed the range of preservatives that ink makers can use and some of these are a bit less effective than the oldy but baddy preservatives of yesteryear. All water-based commercial fluids need such preservatives unless other ingredients are sufficiently toxic to serve a double purpose. The most important thing you can do to keep your inks clean and sterile is to not sniff them or sneeze into them; the human nose and mouth are great sources of the type of mold and bacteria that will grow in pH-neutral inks. Keep your resident bugs away from your inks and they are less likely to grow in your ink collection.

[mge01park]

Thanks for the info, really appreciate it. ✅👍🙏