Vintage Waterman newb requests help

[rkesey]

Hello, all. I've owned a number of modern Waterman pens over the years, and have held onto a few--a Le Man 200 caviar, an Expert II, and a Phileas. I'd love to try a vintage Waterman, and have been doing some research (many thanks to all who put together that "Waterman Weights and Measures" file!), but still feel a bit at sea in terms of which model to start with.

 

I like larger pens that aren't too heavy--say, uncapped and unfilled, 127mm or longer, and 25g or lighter--which I think (corrections welcome!) means I'm looking at #01852, #12, #14S, #44, #45, #46, #52, #55, or #645. 

 

I'm not too worried about the filling mechanism, though I'd love an eye-dropper (#12, #14, others?). I've heard great things about safety pens (12s, 44, 46, others?)--I'm not sure I totally get the appeal, but it might be fun to try. 

 

I'm not bothered about flex--a flex or semi-flex nib would be fun to have, but not a requirement. 

 

I'm not worried about the finish for this first foray into vintage Waterman (though if I'm being honest, that red ripple is pretty snazzy.)

 

I don't mind paying a fair price, but I'm hoping to start with a relatively cheaper model for this first one. 

 

So! Given all that, is there anything else I should be thinking about? 

 

Any particular model strike you as perfect for my first one?

 

Any recommendations on particular sellers, here or elsewhere? I'll be going to the Baltimore pen show next weekend, and would love to connect there and try the pens in person!

 

Many thanks, all.

[I-am-not-really-here]

#12 eyedropper and #52 lever fill in BCHR (Black Chased Hard Rubber) are common.  I suggest the #52 as first choice.  One option to the #52 you may find is the earlier number formatted  #12PSF or Personal Self Filler.  Functionally the same but there might be a small premium for the old numbering system.
 

Bear in mind that a #12 has a friction fit cap.  The #52 has a screw cap. You can get a "#12 with a screw cap" by finding a #72.  
 

 Pens increase in girth as the nib size numbering goes up.  A pen show is the best place to find what size works best for your hand. 
 

I would not recommend a Safety, Waterman or other, as first vintage pen.  Their operational requirements are comparatively strict and if you get out of order a ruined nib and/or ink going where it is not wanted are easily achieved.  That said, it should be the type of mistake you'll only make once, however it is practically inevitable that a mistake will happen.  It's all part of the fun.

[rkesey]

1 hour ago, I-am-not-really-here said:

#12 eyedropper and #52 lever fill in BCHR (Black Chased Hard Rubber) are common.  I suggest the #52 as first choice.  One option to the #52 you may find is the earlier number formatted  #12PSF or Personal Self Filler.  Functionally the same but there might be a small premium for the old numbering system.
 

Bear in mind that a #12 has a friction fit cap.  The #52 has a screw cap. You can get a "#12 with a screw cap" by finding a #72.  
 

 Pens increase in girth as the nib size numbering goes up.  A pen show is the best place to find what size works best for your hand. 
 

I would not recommend a Safety, Waterman or other, as first vintage pen.  Their operational requirements are comparatively strict and if you get out of order a ruined nib and/or ink going where it is not wanted are easily achieved.  That said, it should be the type of mistake you'll only make once, however it is practically inevitable that a mistake will happen.  It's all part of the fun.

This is great information, thank you. And yes, the odds of me messing up my first safety pen are all but perfect.

[shalitha33]

Please note that I'm no expert in vintage watermans.

If you like a larger pen 94 is also a good option. 94 also have a ripple version as well as celluloid. knowing your expected price point may also help to recommend what to go for.  12 and 14 are thin pens. that said they are near impossible to mess up. 52 and 54 are also cheap to obtain.

Only thing to worry about vintage hard rubber is discoloration.  Leaving them in open sunlight , or getting them in contact with water can cause the pen to discolor.

If you want to get a safety pen, only thing to worry about is how you have to cap/ uncap the pen with nib pointing up and the need to retract the nib fully before capping.

If you go with lever fillers make sure you know the condition of the sac / get it restored  / know if the sac inside is silicon or latex ish. some sacs may not like some ink (although I haven't hit this issue so far)

[Seney724]

As I think about what you have written, I believe the right pen for you is a Red Ripple 52.

Lots of them around and they are not terribly expensive.  The Ideal #2 nibs which were originally fitted on to them are terrific.  Finally, if ever necessary, the parts are not that hard to acquire or expensive.

[shalitha33]

If you don't mind to go a bit later down the timeline pens from 40s and 50s may also be a good option. They are much cheaper and suitable as an everyday pen.

Barrel sizes
Pens with  2 and 4 size nibs share the same body size as far as I know. from top 52 1/2v, 52v, 52, 94.









Waterman leaver fillers

Waterman 94 ripple and Aiken Lambert version.
only difference between these two is the lever box and the black section in Aiken Lambert vs the waterman.



last pen (rose ripple) is a 52v.

Waterman 52/54

These are slightly slimmer than 94 but is a good size pen. overlay pen looks a little longer only because its not fully capped




These pens may be too thin / too small for your taste.
52 1/2v and overlay versions. I have one 0572 in here as well (eyedropper version)



Waterman eyedroppers 

I like thin pens so probably these are not what you would want. but if you go up in size to a more thicker pen, you might find one that you will like. 
as far as I know  number 2,3 and 4 pens have the same body (12.13.14  /  22,24 / 2,3,4 ). exception to this is the 94,92 (i may be wrong here). 

Waterman straights cap eyedroppers with overlays (2, 4)



Waterman taper cap eyedroppers (22,24)



Waterman cone cap eyedroppers (12,13,14)



Safety pens
Earlier 12S 14S etc or later hard rubber safety pens may all work. Although watch out for extremally rare ones that have threads at the end of the barrel.
These ones with threads at the end are basically not practice to restore.





Later waterman safeties
This are not that expensive but not that easy to find. these are not hard rubber pens and therefore doesn't need to baby them. 



Later watermans from 40s,50s etc
These are more suitable for everyday writing. a pen with a W5 nib might be a better fit for you if you don't mind these one.

Also these are the cheapest of the lot. Top pen is a 515 next is a w3 .




100 year 
If you want much ticker pens then there is the 100 year pen.
I wouldn't recommended it as a first pen and certainly wouldn't recommend buying it off ebay. If barrel has started to rot it can basically crumble in to bits. If you get it restored off a reputable seller for a decent price, it can be a good pen. there is also a tiny version which looks about the same size as a 52 1/2v. I only have the smaller one in one piece .



Ink Vue
bit of a pain to fill lever filler pens. Also a bit of a pain to get restored. smaller one is the Lady Patricia version. On the bright side I don't think these pens rot like the Patrician pens / 100 year or Lady Patricia (non Ink-vue) Please do correct me if I am wrong (which I'm fairly sure I'm wrong).



 

[rkesey]

2 hours ago, shalitha33 said:

Please note that I'm no expert in vintage watermans.

If you like a larger pen 94 is also a good option. 94 also have a ripple version as well as celluloid. knowing your expected price point may also help to recommend what to go for.  12 and 14 are thin pens. that said they are near impossible to mess up. 52 and 54 are also cheap to obtain.

Only thing to worry about vintage hard rubber is discoloration.  Leaving them in open sunlight , or getting them in contact with water can cause the pen to discolor.

If you want to get a safety pen, only thing to worry about is how you have to cap/ uncap the pen with nib pointing up and the need to retract the nib fully before capping.

If you go with lever fillers make sure you know the condition of the sac / get it restored  / know if the sac inside is silicon or latex ish. some sacs may not like some ink (although I haven't hit this issue so far)

Thanks very much for this.

 

I have plenty of pens that I can take outside and travel with - a vintage Waterman would be a homebody desk pen for me. Is it okay to flush vintage hard rubber pens with water, or should I use something else to clean them out? 

 

It looks (from Sold auctions) as if I should be able to get a 52 Red Ripple in decent condition for around $200--is that right, in your experience? That's certainly doable. 

 

I'm having a harder time getting a fix on a fair price for, say, a 94 Olive Ripple in decent condition--prices seem kind of all over. In your experience, what would be fair?

 

 

[rkesey]

2 hours ago, Seney724 said:

As I think about what you have written, I believe the right pen for you is a Red Ripple 52.

Lots of them around and they are not terribly expensive.  The Ideal #2 nibs which were originally fitted on to them are terrific.  Finally, if ever necessary, the parts are not that hard to acquire or expensive.

This sounds exactly right. Thanks very much for the rec. Is $200, give or take, the right neighborhood for one in decent condition?

[Seney724]

3 minutes ago, rkesey said:

This sounds exactly right. Thanks very much for the rec. Is $200, give or take, the right neighborhood for one in decent condition?

Yes, definitely.

[rkesey]

1 hour ago, shalitha33 said:

If you don't mind to go a bit later down the timeline pens from 40s and 50s may also be a good option. They are much cheaper and suitable as an everyday pen.

Barrel sizes
Pens with  2 and 4 size nibs share the same body size as far as I know. from top 52 1/2v, 52v, 52, 94.









Waterman leaver fillers

Waterman 94 ripple and Aiken Lambert version.
only difference between these two is the lever box and the black section in Aiken Lambert vs the waterman.



last pen (rose ripple) is a 52v.

Waterman 52/54

These are slightly slimmer than 94 but is a good size pen. overlay pen looks a little longer only because its not fully capped




These pens may be too thin / too small for your taste.
52 1/2v and overlay versions. I have one 0572 in here as well (eyedropper version)



Waterman eyedroppers 

I like thin pens so probably these are not what you would want. but if you go up in size to a more thicker pen, you might find one that you will like. 
as far as I know  number 2,3 and 4 pens have the same body (12.13.14  /  22,24 / 2,3,4 ). exception to this is the 94,92 (i may be wrong here). 

Waterman straights cap eyedroppers with overlays (2, 4)



Waterman taper cap eyedroppers (22,24)



Waterman cone cap eyedroppers (12,13,14)



Safety pens
Earlier 12S 14S etc or later hard rubber safety pens may all work. Although watch out for extremally rare ones that have threads at the end of the barrel.
These ones with threads at the end are basically not practice to restore.





Later waterman safeties
This are not that expensive but not that easy to find. these are not hard rubber pens and therefore doesn't need to baby them. 



Later watermans from 40s,50s etc
These are more suitable for everyday writing. a pen with a W5 nib might be a better fit for you if you don't mind these one.

Also these are the cheapest of the lot. Top pen is a 515 next is a w3 .




100 year 
If you want much ticker pens then there is the 100 year pen.
I wouldn't recommended it as a first pen and certainly wouldn't recommend buying it off ebay. If barrel has started to rot it can basically crumble in to bits. If you get it restored off a reputable seller for a decent price, it can be a good pen. there is also a tiny version which looks about the same size as a 52 1/2v. I only have the smaller one in one piece .



Ink Vue
bit of a pain to fill lever filler pens. Also a bit of a pain to get restored. smaller one is the Lady Patricia version. On the bright side I don't think these pens rot like the Patrician pens / 100 year or Lady Patricia (non Ink-vue) Please do correct me if I am wrong (which I'm fairly sure I'm wrong).



 

Are these all from your collection? I'm in awe! So many beautiful pens. 

 

I think a 52/54 is what I'll be looking for now, with a view toward a 94 at some point.

 

Thanks so much for putting this all together. Very helpful.

[rkesey]

2 minutes ago, Seney724 said:

Yes, definitely.

Excellent, thank you!

[shalitha33]

$200 give or take should be correct for a red-ripple as far as I know. Depending on the condition it can go for less as well. plain (non-ripple) would cost about half of that or less.
If you go through a seller (rather than ebay) it might cost a bit more. But you will have the additional guarantee that the pen is going write well etc.

Sites I have bought pens from so far are: (Just listing websites , doesn't mean they have a red ripple to sell btw. I didn't check )

https://vintagepens.com/catill_Waterman_2.shtml
http://www.fivestarpens.com/waterman.html
https://www.facebook.com/groups/658728451558877/

 

There are other sites as well

 

https://www.peytonstreetpens.com/pens-by-brand/waterman/

That said if there are no cracks etc these pens are pretymuch bullet-proof.
Btw flushing these pens with water is fine but just don't submerge them. Its the outside that doesn't react to water that well :(. 

[rkesey]

15 hours ago, shalitha33 said:

$200 give or take should be correct for a red-ripple as far as I know. Depending on the condition it can go for less as well. plain (non-ripple) would cost about half of that or less.
If you go through a seller (rather than ebay) it might cost a bit more. But you will have the additional guarantee that the pen is going write well etc.

Sites I have bought pens from so far are: (Just listing websites , doesn't mean they have a red ripple to sell btw. I didn't check )

https://vintagepens.com/catill_Waterman_2.shtml
http://www.fivestarpens.com/waterman.html
https://www.facebook.com/groups/658728451558877/

 

There are other sites as well

 

https://www.peytonstreetpens.com/pens-by-brand/waterman/

That said if there are no cracks etc these pens are pretymuch bullet-proof.
Btw flushing these pens with water is fine but just don't submerge them. Its the outside that doesn't react to water that well :(. 

Those sources are great, and two of them did have the 52 Red Ripple for sale. Many thanks. In the past I've generally had good luck with modern pens on eBay, mostly by obsessively scrutinizing the photographs and asking questions, but given my ignorance and the number of variables on a pen like this, it feels like a job for an actual pen seller, and/or a pen show collector--and as others have mentioned, I'd much rather support them than save $20 or whatever.

 

Again, thanks so much for all your insight and information!

[rkesey]

On 3/6/2022 at 10:51 AM, rkesey said:

Hello, all. I've owned a number of modern Waterman pens over the years, and have held onto a few--a Le Man 200 caviar, an Expert II, and a Phileas. I'd love to try a vintage Waterman, and have been doing some research (many thanks to all who put together that "Waterman Weights and Measures" file!), but still feel a bit at sea in terms of which model to start with.

 

I like larger pens that aren't too heavy--say, uncapped and unfilled, 127mm or longer, and 25g or lighter--which I think (corrections welcome!) means I'm looking at #01852, #12, #14S, #44, #45, #46, #52, #55, or #645. 

 

I'm not too worried about the filling mechanism, though I'd love an eye-dropper (#12, #14, others?). I've heard great things about safety pens (12s, 44, 46, others?)--I'm not sure I totally get the appeal, but it might be fun to try. 

 

I'm not bothered about flex--a flex or semi-flex nib would be fun to have, but not a requirement. 

 

I'm not worried about the finish for this first foray into vintage Waterman (though if I'm being honest, that red ripple is pretty snazzy.)

 

I don't mind paying a fair price, but I'm hoping to start with a relatively cheaper model for this first one. 

 

So! Given all that, is there anything else I should be thinking about? 

 

Any particular model strike you as perfect for my first one?

 

Any recommendations on particular sellers, here or elsewhere? I'll be going to the Baltimore pen show next weekend, and would love to connect there and try the pens in person!

 

Many thanks, all.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their help here. I'll be headed into Baltimore tomorrow, and with any luck I'll find one to take home!

[shalitha33]

Best of luck  Hope you find a nice one for a good price  
 

Remeber to post the pics once you get back

[rkesey]

On 3/12/2022 at 2:17 PM, shalitha33 said:

Best of luck  Hope you find a nice one for a good price  
 

Remeber to post the pics once you get back

Thank you! I saw 20 or so, tried half a dozen, and had a great time talking with the vendors, but in the end I didn't go for any of them. They were all about 50% more expensive than I'd thought, even the ones whose colors had faded a bit. I came close on a nice 55 Red Ripple but in the end decided to learn a bit more and maybe cast a wider net. That aside, I had a great time at the Fair! Thanks again, all, for helping to kickstart my education.

[pen lady]

I've sent you a message about some Watermans that I have for sale.

[cunim]

 

You need to take it back to basics.  Why do you want a vintage Waterman?  Other than the real collector's items, their claim to fame (and to value) is flex and there are lots of options if that is not important to you.

 

Here are two 52s.  One is a firm, XF "Accountant" nib.  Great writer and pretty but worth about $150-200 and there are lots of other pens that do about the same thing in that price range.  For example, you can get a top-condition Wahl Oxford for $150.  The other 52 has a long-tined very flexible nib that goes (easily) from XXF to BBB.  I would expect that to fetch closer to $1000.  Flex nibs in good condition are that rare.  Point is, vintage Waterman prices have more to do with the nib than the pen and, since that doesn't matter to you, it may be hard to accept the going price of a Waternan.  Other brands may be less focused on that nib.  Be careful.  Remember that it is the nib that writes and it is the nib that is most commonly damaged or otherwise poor in any vintage pen.  With ebonite, you get what you see.  With a vintage nib, you get its history and you can't see that.  It's worth verifying the writing properties in person and paying more to get a good nib.

 

 

[rkesey]

38 minutes ago, cunim said:

 

You need to take it back to basics.  Why do you want a vintage Waterman?  Other than the real collector's items, their claim to fame (and to value) is flex and there are lots of options if that is not important to you.

 

Here are two 52s.  One is a firm, XF "Accountant" nib.  Great writer and pretty but worth about $150-200 and there are lots of other pens that do about the same thing in that price range.  For example, you can get a top-condition Wahl Oxford for $150.  The other 52 has a long-tined very flexible nib that goes (easily) from XXF to BBB.  I would expect that to fetch closer to $1000.  Flex nibs in good condition are that rare.  Point is, vintage Waterman prices have more to do with the nib than the pen and, since that doesn't matter to you, it may be hard to accept the going price of a Waternan.  Other brands may be less focused on that nib.  Be careful.  Remember that it is the nib that writes and it is the nib that is most commonly damaged or otherwise poor in any vintage pen.  With ebonite, you get what you see.  With a vintage nib, you get its history and you can't see that.  It's worth verifying the writing properties in person and paying more to get a good nib.

 

 

Cunim, what I need now is a version of your message that I can generalize to every other aspect of my life. Thank you! I think, more than anything else, my experience of the 52s at the Fair confirmed what you say: flex doesn't matter to me, and the less flexy nibs I tried were perhaps not in the greatest of shape, and aesthetically the pens spoke to me more in photographs than in person, and I walked away a little nonplussed... but still glad to have learned a little more about my relationship to fountain pens of this kind, and grateful to have done so amongst people who are so generous with their time and knowledge. 

[rkesey]

15 hours ago, pen lady said:

I've sent you a message about some Watermans that I have for sale.

Thank you! Responding now.