How close to the nib should you hold the pen, according to the classic methods?

[dysmedia]

I note that there's a deep well of historical knowledge in this community, so I thought I'd throw this out here, the way that I did my knuckle placement question (which received fascinating responses). There appears to be no consensus whatsoever in the community regarding where on the section — or even above the section — you should place your fingertips. Do the classic texts say anything about this?

 

The reason I ask is that I just bought a Sailor Sapporo, and I keep reading that people consider this pen too short to write with unposted. Whereas any extra length, for me, would be irrelevant, despite my having large hands: the pen extends beyond the web between my thumb and index finger, which is all that matters.  And I realized that this is probably because I hold the pen as close to the nib as possible: right where the section ends and curves outward into a lip. This lip/stop would seem to be the place where the manufacturer suggests you hold the pen. With a Lamy Safari, in particular, in which the design is meant to encourage proper grip, this widening lip at the bottom of the section is shaped to mimic the curve of a fingertip, so the pen appears to be asking you to have your fingers right up against it.

 

Is there agreement among the gurus with regard to this? Does the advice change over time?

[A Smug Dill]

10 minutes ago, dysmedia said:

Is there agreement among the gurus with regard to this? Does the advice change over time?

 

I don't think any ‘authoritative’ voice — whether that's out of a classic text, or the teachings of an expert penman today — can account for all the different lengths, shapes, and weights of gripping sections on different pens in the fountain pen landscape. Some sections are long, while others (such as on the Faber-Castell Ambition) are short; some are concave, others convex, and yet others are tapered, or just straight.

[dysmedia]

@A Smug Dill Ah, I'm glad you weighed in, as you've mentioned that you (I believe) write kanji? I'm in fact learning Japanese, and I was wondering whether kids are taught to hold their pens differently in Asia. For tiny, multiple strokes, it's much easier for me with my fingertips at the end of the section, but that doesn't mean I'm doing it right.

[A Smug Dill]

33 minutes ago, dysmedia said:

@A Smug Dill Ah, I'm glad you weighed in, as you've mentioned that you (I believe) write kanji?

 

That I do.

 

11 minutes ago, dysmedia said:

I'm in fact learning Japanese, and I was wondering whether kids are taught to hold their pens differently in Asia.

 

I'm fifty years old, and I can't remember how I was taught as a child to hold a pen, haha; and I never used a fountain pen to write until I was well into my twenties, so I carry my bad habits from using ballpoint and fineliner pens all through my formative years.

 

I have recently bought some books, including at introductory course level, on how to use a rigid-nibbed pen (as opposed to a brush) for calligraphic writing in Chinese. The text is written in simplified Chinese, which makes it more difficult for me to read and parse it, so I've only sorta glanced at the information so far; but all the same, I might see if I can do a reasonable translation of some pages that describe the proper way to hold a pen, and share that within the scope of fair use.

 

 

I do know what the book described is different from how I hold my pen.

 

19 minutes ago, dysmedia said:

For tiny, multiple strokes, it's much easier for me with my fingertips at the end of the section, but that doesn't mean I'm doing it right.

 

I don't rest my fingertips that close to the nib; the closer to the nib my grip is, the more physical tension I feel, and the more tiring it is, to write (even fairly small). On the other hand, I just cannot see how (whole-)arm writing would work for any form of writing that involves lots of short, distinct strokes, including in an Italic script for English.

 

Furthermore, if I'm not using a brush with a long stem, I don't think I can drive the fine movements required for tome, hane, and harai pen stroke endings from the elbow or higher, instead of using my fingertips and wrist to produce the brief down-presses and rapid up-ticks.

 

But then, I'm definitely no guru when it comes to handwriting technique; I just muddle through.

 

You might want to have a look at this video:

and also try this:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=美工筆書法&hl=ja&tbm=vid

[dysmedia]

@A Smug Dill Thank you! I must confess, your grip is like nothing I've ever seen before. (I assume that's your hand in the video.) Which is not criticism; I just think it's fascinating. It's sort of like a tripod, except that your thumb wraps around the front?

[AmandaW]

3 minutes ago, dysmedia said:

It's sort of like a tripod, except that your thumb wraps around the front?

I hold my pen the same, but with the thumb landing a little higher up.

[A Smug Dill]

Yes, that was my hand. I think I got into the habit of using the crook of my thumb, instead of its tip, as the contact point with the (gripping section on the) pen to drive upward movements by flexing/straightening my thumb. There is a callus right there, and that is also why some pens give me grief with either a sharp step-down from barrel to section, or a ridge (e.g. on the Platinum Procyon). I'll need to retrain my hand to use the tip of my thumb instead…  some time soon…

[arcfide]

There are differences across the board historically, and each particular historical script tended to have its own teachers with their own recommendations on how far away to hold the pen. There are some modern historical recommendations that were contemporary a few decades ago but have otherwise begun to fall away. 

 

The most precise definition I have seen has come from traditional American penmanship books around the turn of the 20th century give or take a few decades. I those, I often see recommendations for holding the pen approximately 1 inch away from the tip. However, I believe this probably would have been considered the least important element in proper positioning and grip of the pen at that time. The isolation and control of the wrist, elbow, fingers, and so forth was considered in far more detail, and the position of the paper to the body was also considered significantly more important (based on the amount of time spent on it). I suspect that if a student was able to have better overall posture with the fingers held a little closer or a little further away from the nib, the canonical answer would have been "let him be." What was more important in those manuals was that you could move your hand well and in the full range of motion. For many people, to achieve this freedom of motion, this is easier with a hold that is further back: you can train your hands to have finer control but trying to consistently use a sharp steel dip pen at the right angle while making large swoops and capital lettering is much more difficult by simple geometry. 

 

When it comes to the modern fountain pen, they are much more forgiving. Moreover, each nib can have a different sweet spot or ideal location, which might be different depending on the individual tastes of the user. In such a case, I think the best strategy is to identify the range of motion you need and adjust your pen to maintain the maximum reasonable angular consistency to the page while maintaining that full range of motion. After that point of sufficient angular consistency, accounting for personal balance, feel, and dexterity probably matters more. 

[Karmachanic]

The pen let's me know where it should be held.

[dysmedia]

On 2/24/2022 at 7:16 AM, arcfide said:

There are differences across the board historically, and each particular historical script tended to have its own teachers with their own recommendations on how far away to hold the pen. There are some modern historical recommendations that were contemporary a few decades ago but have otherwise begun to fall away. 

 

The most precise definition I have seen has come from traditional American penmanship books around the turn of the 20th century give or take a few decades. I those, I often see recommendations for holding the pen approximately 1 inch away from the tip. However, I believe this probably would have been considered the least important element in proper positioning and grip of the pen at that time. The isolation and control of the wrist, elbow, fingers, and so forth was considered in far more detail, and the position of the paper to the body was also considered significantly more important (based on the amount of time spent on it). I suspect that if a student was able to have better overall posture with the fingers held a little closer or a little further away from the nib, the canonical answer would have been "let him be." What was more important in those manuals was that you could move your hand well and in the full range of motion. For many people, to achieve this freedom of motion, this is easier with a hold that is further back: you can train your hands to have finer control but trying to consistently use a sharp steel dip pen at the right angle while making large swoops and capital lettering is much more difficult by simple geometry. 

 

When it comes to the modern fountain pen, they are much more forgiving. Moreover, each nib can have a different sweet spot or ideal location, which might be different depending on the individual tastes of the user. In such a case, I think the best strategy is to identify the range of motion you need and adjust your pen to maintain the maximum reasonable angular consistency to the page while maintaining that full range of motion. After that point of sufficient angular consistency, accounting for personal balance, feel, and dexterity probably matters more. 

 

Thanks so much for this!  Just what I was hoping for.

 

I've been practicing to see whether I can get happy with a 1-inch distance, and it's surprisingly easy. My worry was that it would make it impossible to write (print, really) in tiny letters with an EF pen, but it's not an issue; if anything I can manage greater accuracy.

[SF Susan]

I hold my pens quite close to the nib, and I can easily write with a Sapporo unposted. I don’t even post a Kaweco Sport. In the “old days” handwriting manuals instructed students to use whole arm and shoulder movement when writing, not finger movement. I guess if you’re writing that way it would make sense to grip your pen further back. But I definitely write with my fingers and don’t feel like I have enough fine control of my letter shapes unless I hold the pen close to the nib.