Noodler's American Aristocracy

[xTurtleToex]

Hello ,

 

Just wondering if could help with some questions I'm having about the Noodler's American Aristocracy ink.

 

I know there are 3 "flavors" possible, but thats not what I'm thinking about.

 

I bought a few bottles to try in my Kuretake Brush pen.  Never made it there for the project I was doing.

 

I journal often and always use waterproof, archival, and, or, bulletproof/eternal inks.  I like variety and have many shades of blue and black.  I also have a couple greens.  Anyways...

 

I was thinking about using this ink to journal, but have never used non bulletproof, waterproof, inks before for this purpose.  I know that just because inks may not be water proof/resistant, etc, doesn't mean they won't last a long time.

 

All that to ask my question...

Does anyone know if the Noodler's American Aristocracy ink would be an ok choice for Journaling or anything else that would require lasting a long time?

 

Would this ink fade quickly, after just a few years?  Is this a ink that UV would destroy?  Etc. Etc.

 

I've seen many tests done for inks in the other forums, but haven't seen this ink used for any tests. 

 

So, I'm reaching out to see what everyone thinks.  I would love to fill up a pen and writing with this ink.  I just dont want to use it. And then a few years down the road I open up my journal, or view a document, or project, and the ink is gone, faded, or generally illegible.

 

Appreciate your thoughts.

[amberleadavis]

I haven't tested this in fade tests, but if you look in the Ink Review forum, or in the Inky Thoughts - "Start Here" thread, you may find what you are looking for.

 

Personally, I think it would be a great inks to journal with.

[welch]

I think Amber Lea's fade tests are harsher than you would find if you treated you journal properly. Best I remember, she clips sheets of writing to a clothes-line in Arizona or New Mexico, and puts other sheets inside a window. That is much more UV light than a journal would get, unless you intend to torture the journal.

 

Any ordinary Noodlers ink should last more than a few years. Most other inks will, as well. I have essays I wrote in junior high school sixty years ago using Sheaffer's Washable Blue-Black. They are readable. I also have a page signed by a teacher in 1953 in some brilliant sort of blue. No idea what ink she used, but there is a good chance it was Parker or Sheaffer's ink, since they were the big sellers judging from the bottles that have survived.

 

[amberleadavis]

4 hours ago, welch said:

I think Amber Lea's fade tests are harsher than you would find if you treated you journal properly. Best I remember, she clips sheets of writing to a clothes-line in Arizona or New Mexico, and puts other sheets inside a window. That is much more UV light than a journal would get, unless you intend to torture the journal.

 

Any ordinary Noodlers ink should last more than a few years. Most other inks will, as well. I have essays I wrote in junior high school sixty years ago using Sheaffer's Washable Blue-Black. They are readable. I also have a page signed by a teacher in 1953 in some brilliant sort of blue. No idea what ink she used, but there is a good chance it was Parker or Sheaffer's ink, since they were the big sellers judging from the bottles that have survived.

 

 

 

BIG GRIN

 

Here are some of the inks 1 year ago this week.  Daily Nevada sun is brutal.

 

Most inks will last your lifetime.  BSB will not last generations.

[welch]

On 2/20/2022 at 1:53 AM, amberleadavis said:

 

 

BIG GRIN

 

Here are some of the inks 1 year ago this week.  Daily Nevada sun is brutal.

 

Most inks will last your lifetime.  BSB will not last generations.

On 2/20/2022 at 1:53 AM, amberleadavis said:

 

 

BIG GRIN

 

Here are some of the inks 1 year ago this week.  Daily Nevada sun is brutal.

 

Most inks will last your lifetime.  BSB will not last generations.

 

 

[welch]

Ha! Amber Lea, I guess I moved you several hundred miles! Sorry about that!

[inkstainedruth]

Well, you know what they say:  In the US, 200 years is old; in Europe, 200 miles is "far"....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[askwyatt]

On 2/14/2022 at 11:17 PM, xTurtleToex said:

All that to ask my question...

Does anyone know if the Noodler's American Aristocracy ink would be an ok choice for Journaling or anything else that would require lasting a long time?

 

Would this ink fade quickly, after just a few years?  Is this a ink that UV would destroy?  Etc. Etc.

 

I've seen many tests done for inks in the other forums, but haven't seen this ink used for any tests. 

 

So, I'm reaching out to see what everyone thinks.  I would love to fill up a pen and writing with this ink.  I just dont want to use it. And then a few years down the road I open up my journal, or view a document, or project, and the ink is gone, faded, or generally illegible.

 

Appreciate your thoughts.

I work as an archivist, and for all the talk I hear or read in the fountain pen community about the three-pronged approach to pen performance (pen, ink and paper), it's surprising for me to rarely hear the same kind of rhetoric when it comes to ink and the preservation of materials such as journals. I often hear or read about archival/bulletproof inks, and yet see very little of that talk migrate to talk about the paper itself. (Or maybe I frequent the wrong parts of the community.) To be frank, archivists themselves aren't typically going to worry about the ink on the document. They'll worry about the document and preservation or conservation of the item as a whole. 

 

The reason I bring this up is to just kind of put my two cents in with this comment by Welch:

On 2/19/2022 at 8:50 PM, welch said:

I think Amber Lea's fade tests are harsher than you would find if you treated you journal properly. Best I remember, she clips sheets of writing to a clothes-line in Arizona or New Mexico, and puts other sheets inside a window. That is much more UV light than a journal would get, unless you intend to torture the journal.

 

I think there's something to be said about Welch's comment. Are you going to torture the journal? Are you going to leave it in a place where a flood will get to it, or cracked or burst pipes? Are you going to stick it out in the sun and the heat?

 

Plus, how long do you want the journal to last? Because things that are 20-30 years old break down really easy, including paper. Really easy.

 

Now, I wasn't meaning to pontificate about me or my job. So . . .

 

Once you're done with the journal, cold, dark and dry will keep them safe, and the archival/bulletproof inks will keep them readable. Hot, light, and humid is bad.

[TSherbs]

1 hour ago, askwyatt said:

I work as an archivist, and for all the talk I hear or read in the fountain pen community about the three-pronged approach to pen performance (pen, ink and paper), it's surprising for me to rarely hear the same kind of rhetoric when it comes to ink and the preservation of materials such as journals...

 

This has come up fairly often over the years. Or so it seems to me. Often in the Noodler's/Platinum threads (permanence, who keeps journals/letters, etc...)

[askwyatt]

10 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

This has come up fairly often over the years. Or so it seems to me. Often in the Noodler's/Platinum threads (permanence, who keeps journals/letters, etc...)

I figured it has. Being a newer member I would assume so. Yet I am surprised at how little I've heard about the fragility of paper in other places beside FPN when it comes to the fountain pen world. 

 

 

[PithyProlix]

6 hours ago, askwyatt said:

I figured it has. Being a newer member I would assume so. Yet I am surprised at how little I've heard about the fragility of paper in other places beside FPN when it comes to the fountain pen world. 

 

Any suggestions for fountain pen friendly paper with good longevity? And paper/ink combinations? 

[jburchett]

18 hours ago, askwyatt said:

I work as an archivist

 

Always nice to see a fellow librarian/archivist/information professional in the midst 🙂

[askwyatt]

4 hours ago, jburchett said:

 

Always nice to see a fellow librarian/archivist/information professional in the midst

Hurray for our side! At the moment, I am all three. 😬 And would love to be relieved of some duties. 

 

15 hours ago, PithyProlix said:

Any suggestions for fountain pen friendly paper with good longevity? And paper/ink combinations?

This is a good question. I haven't been a fountain pen enthusiast long enough to know all the qualities of the papers fountain pen lovers use that would lend to me recommending a particular type of paper. However, stuff like Tomoe River seems like it would be far from friendly in a longevity context. In general papers with the right alkaline/acid content (the less acid, the better) and an alkaline buffer to counteract future acidity determines whether a paper is labeled as  "permanent."  

 

Also, papers made with "recycled" content tend to be made with pulps that are more likely to degrade faster and will shorten the lifespan of the paper. I am still looking for the types of paper I would like to use for my "longevity"  papers. But, to be fair, a lot of paper in general holds up longer than people expect them to, and a little care can help them go a long way. 

[amberleadavis]

On 2/22/2022 at 12:22 PM, askwyatt said:

I work as an archivist, and for all the talk I hear or read in the fountain pen community about the three-pronged approach to pen performance (pen, ink and paper), it's surprising for me to rarely hear the same kind of rhetoric when it comes to ink and the preservation of materials such as journals. I often hear or read about archival/bulletproof inks, and yet see very little of that talk migrate to talk about the paper itself. (Or maybe I frequent the wrong parts of the community.) To be frank, archivists themselves aren't typically going to worry about the ink on the document. They'll worry about the document and preservation or conservation of the item as a whole. 

 

The reason I bring this up is to just kind of put my two cents in with this comment by Welch:

 

I think there's something to be said about Welch's comment. Are you going to torture the journal? Are you going to leave it in a place where a flood will get to it, or cracked or burst pipes? Are you going to stick it out in the sun and the heat?

 

Plus, how long do you want the journal to last? Because things that are 20-30 years old break down really easy, including paper. Really easy.

 

Now, I wasn't meaning to pontificate about me or my job. So . . .

 

Once you're done with the journal, cold, dark and dry will keep them safe, and the archival/bulletproof inks will keep them readable. Hot, light, and humid is bad.

 

On 2/22/2022 at 1:30 PM, TSherbs said:

 

This has come up fairly often over the years. Or so it seems to me. Often in the Noodler's/Platinum threads (permanence, who keeps journals/letters, etc...)

 

On 2/22/2022 at 1:46 PM, askwyatt said:

I figured it has. Being a newer member I would assume so. Yet I am surprised at how little I've heard about the fragility of paper in other places beside FPN when it comes to the fountain pen world. 

 

 

 

On 2/22/2022 at 8:36 PM, PithyProlix said:

 

Any suggestions for fountain pen friendly paper with good longevity? And paper/ink combinations? 

 

13 hours ago, jburchett said:

 

Always nice to see a fellow librarian/archivist/information professional in the midst 🙂

 

7 hours ago, askwyatt said:

Hurray for our side! At the moment, I am all three. 😬 And would love to be relieved of some duties. 

 

This is a good question. I haven't been a fountain pen enthusiast long enough to know all the qualities of the papers fountain pen lovers use that would lend to me recommending a particular type of paper. However, stuff like Tomoe River seems like it would be far from friendly in a longevity context. In general papers with the right alkaline/acid content (the less acid, the better) and an alkaline buffer to counteract future acidity determines whether a paper is labeled as  "permanent."  

 

Also, papers made with "recycled" content tend to be made with pulps that are more likely to degrade faster and will shorten the lifespan of the paper. I am still looking for the types of paper I would like to use for my "longevity"  papers. But, to be fair, a lot of paper in general holds up longer than people expect them to, and a little care can help them go a long way. 

 

 

We tested almost 20 papers with the same inks and over a long period of time - I think it was the 2014 test.  The papers made no difference to the fade resutls.

[askwyatt]

10 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

We tested almost 20 papers with the same inks and over a long period of time - I think it was the 2014 test.  The papers made no difference to the fade resutls.

That's cool. But I don't see fade and color as the only factor for preservation, or even longevity. 

 

How long into the future will the paper last? What will the degradation of the entire object look like? If the paper becomes brittle, flakes, foxes, is nibbled on by other critters, or any other type of issue that can occur, does it matter if the ink hasn't faded? In terms of really long term preservation, what characteristics of the paper will allow it to hold up 50, 100, 200, 400 years into the future?

[amberleadavis]

7 hours ago, askwyatt said:

That's cool. But I don't see fade and color as the only factor for preservation, or even longevity. 

 

How long into the future will the paper last? What will the degradation of the entire object look like? If the paper becomes brittle, flakes, foxes, is nibbled on by other critters, or any other type of issue that can occur, does it matter if the ink hasn't faded? In terms of really long term preservation, what characteristics of the paper will allow it to hold up 50, 100, 200, 400 years into the future?

 

As I understand it, using light is mainly a catalyst to speed up the decay.

 

However, some research suggests that IG ink (which maintains color for longer) is more damaging to the paper.  Have you read this paper before?

https://irongallink.org/ink-corrosion-chemistry.html

[amberleadavis]

On 2/22/2022 at 11:50 AM, welch said:

Ha! Amber Lea, I guess I moved you several hundred miles! Sorry about that!

 

On 2/22/2022 at 12:09 PM, inkstainedruth said:

Well, you know what they say:  In the US, 200 years is old; in Europe, 200 miles is "far"....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

Yeah, I didn't think of it as far. 

[inkstainedruth]

2 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

 

 

Yeah, I didn't think of it as far. 

When my husband and I got married, one of my co-workers didn't understand that Philadelphia and Pittsburgh are about a 7 hour drive apart (because, "Well they're both in Pennsylvania, right...").  

Actually I shouldn't have been that surprised, given that the wedding present we got from her was a check that *bounced*.... 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth