Food for thought .... where did the concept of a week come from?

[MHBru]

I ran across this very interesting article that discusses why we use the concept of a week.  It's the only unit of time not associated with a natural process so where did it come from?   https://aeon.co/essays/how-we-came-to-depend-on-the-week-despite-its-artificiality

[Karmachanic]

22 minutes ago, MHBru said:

where did it come from? 

 

Babylon

[inkstainedruth]

Interesting article.  

I'd actually been sort of thinking along these lines over the weekend, when trying to remember what day of the week it was (Christmas being on Saturday this year has sort of screwed thing up, compounded by going over to a friend's house on Monday instead of the general Sunday (she's a teacher and has this week off before the spring semester starts up).  And then when my husband and I got home, trying to remember if Christmas being on the weekend screws up trash pickup (normally on Tuesdays here, but will get pushed back a day if there's a Monday holiday).  And of course, since my husband has worked from home pretty much since the pandemic started (getting his current job just as things were going into lockdown), that threw another monkey wrench into the works....

And spent some time on Christmas Day dealing with Apple Support -- YET AGAIN™ -- and now have had to schedule a callback for later today because the person in the Chat Window on Saturday pointed me at some article without actually walking me through the process and I don't think he quite understood the issue to begin with....   And when I tried to initiate another one just now I got an error message; of course a phone call on their dime has the added bonus of the Support person being able to institute a screen sharing session so I can actually point out the problem instead of just trying to explain it when I don't speak "Computerese"....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[agaric]

I don't think the number 7 is completely artificial. Isn't 7 the average number of items humans can store in their short-term memory? This is just a guess, but since a day is the most concrete form of demarcating time, it makes physio-psycho-evolutio sense that the number of days in a week has settled neatly in line with memory function.

 

But again, it's a guess. The article scrapes past the psychological-causation aspect with the phrase "mnemonic anchor" and mentions of routines and habits, but I think there might be something more there. Or maybe there's nothing there.

[txomsy]

What a pity of modern "journalism"!

 

Consider the length of the only natural measure of a "month", the lunar month.

 

Consider that the moon passes through 4 phases that are easy to identify (full, new and two quarters).

 

Divide (using integer division).

 

What do you get?

 

Count the number of planets visible to the naked eye and known in the Ancient World? What do you get?

 

The week was invented in the Middle East, originally to match the seven planets (according to the writing record) honoring one each day, then adapted to fit in the lunar month (which being ~29.53 days didn't fit), which led to having "final weeks" that could last 8 o 9 days to re-synchronize.

 

Also, at some point in time, the only way to enjoy the spare time to become a "scholar" (to learn in depth, study in depth) was to have a "religious" role (even if only a shaman), the best person to consult for advice have always been learned people (those who are perceived to know the design of the Universe --or its maker(s) thereof).

 

Join both.

 

A person who is asked about prospects for seeding/collecting, for the organization of life, needs to know Astronomy. So, what would be the natural way to divide time? Years, seasons, lunar months...

 

A person who everybody consults, knows the needs and peeves of all. Once a ruler asks you how to keep subjects under control, the obvious reason is to reduce civil unrest. What would be the natural demand of a hard, neolithic, bronze, or iron age, worker? Rest. How do you assign even rest periods? Once once a month is deemed insufficient, you go for the next logical division: quarters of a month.

 

Once every seventh day has been deemed "unsuitable for work", and it has quenched civil unrest, and to anybody who asks why, you say that "you made the decision based on the stars", which are associated with the gods, you get a public perception of a god-given rule to abide by, and the concept sticks and perpetuates by itself as only natural forever.

 

Middle East civilizations were the first neolithic ones and we all inherit from them. Thus our tradition lasts.

 

OK, so I know it seems a "logical" argument but not necessarily the real one. Just google it up which is what the pseudo-"reporter" should have done.

 

Can one have other divisions? Sure. The French tried to divide it in tens during the French Revolution. Others may count with fingers as well, but only one hand. Or use any other base.

 

From the little I know of Mathematical Archaeology, and of humans, most likely humans (and pre-humans) have always wanted to have rests, parties or "motives for celebration" and the counting base may have been anything. It might have been seed/harvest, animal migratory events, menstrual cycles (23-31 days in rhesus, BTW), but the concept surely is older than modern humans and maybe even monkeys; for all we know, it should be inherent to most animals and thus, natural for all of us.

 

Yeah, it is not as "romantic" as selling a "magic", "unfathomable", dark "mystery" that is impossible to reveal, and less likely to attract clicks to your web page. But it's natural enough that any one should arrive at something similar.

[Karmachanic]

I vote going back to the eight day week, with  five work days and three rest days.

[Ergative]

4 hours ago, agaric said:

I don't think the number 7 is completely artificial. Isn't 7 the average number of items humans can store in their short-term memory? This is just a guess, but since a day is the most concrete form of demarcating time, it makes physio-psycho-evolutio sense that the number of days in a week has settled neatly in line with memory function.

 

But again, it's a guess. The article scrapes past the psychological-causation aspect with the phrase "mnemonic anchor" and mentions of routines and habits, but I think there might be something more there. Or maybe there's nothing there.

 

Sort of. The common models of working memory say that there are two modules: verbal working memory, and visuao-spatial working memory.  Each one can store up to about 4 units, so together they make up a total of about 7 or 8 units. Here's a cool article that argues that most of human linguistic patterns are based on that 'magic number 4': https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/cog-2015-0112/html

[TSherbs]

cool stuff here

[LizEF]

5 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

I vote going back to the eight day week, with  five work days and three rest days.

I second this motion!  All in favor?

[Ergative]

Aye.

[I-am-not-really-here]

Being retired everyday is Saturday but if the paper is fat and there is no mail then it is Sunday.

[alexwi]

5 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

I vote going back to the eight day week, with  five work days and three rest days.

 

As lovely as this idea is, because, clearly, the 5:2 ratio downright sucks, even if it succeeds, I can't imagine it taking less than 20 years for everyone to agree on a name for day 8 that doesn't offend anyone.

 

This alternative, which results in 28-hour days, is something that I've been considering for a couple of years, and will try it one of these days: https://xkcd.com/320/

 

alex

 

[alexwi]

4 minutes ago, I-am-not-really-here said:

Being retired everyday is Saturday but if the paper is fat and there is no mail then it is Sunday.

 

Big deal. Since March of 2020, every day's a Tuesday. 😉

 

Alex

[LizEF]

1 minute ago, alexwi said:

I can't imagine it taking less than 20 years for everyone to agree on a name for day 8 that doesn't offend anyone.

Let's just do the L. E. Modesitt, Jr. thing and call it Eight-day.

2 minutes ago, alexwi said:

28-hour days

Yes!  I'm all in favor of this one.  Now, how do we get the planet to slow down a little?

[sansenri]

9 hours ago, txomsy said:

What a pity of modern "journalism"!

 

Consider the length of the only natural measure of a "month", the lunar month.

 

Consider that the moon passes through 4 phases that are easy to identify (full, new and two quarters).

 

Divide (using integer division).

 

What do you get?

 

Count the number of planets visible to the naked eye and known in the Ancient World? What do you get?

 

The week was invented in the Middle East, originally to match the seven planets (according to the writing record) honoring one each day, then adapted to fit in the lunar month (which being ~29.53 days didn't fit), which led to having "final weeks" that could last 8 o 9 days to re-synchronize.

 

Also, at some point in time, the only way to enjoy the spare time to become a "scholar" (to learn in depth, study in depth) was to have a "religious" role (even if only a shaman), the best person to consult for advice have always been learned people (those who are perceived to know the design of the Universe --or its maker(s) thereof).

 

Join both.

 

A person who is asked about prospects for seeding/collecting, for the organization of life, needs to know Astronomy. So, what would be the natural way to divide time? Years, seasons, lunar months...

 

A person who everybody consults, knows the needs and peeves of all. Once a ruler asks you how to keep subjects under control, the obvious reason is to reduce civil unrest. What would be the natural demand of a hard, neolithic, bronze, or iron age, worker? Rest. How do you assign even rest periods? Once once a month is deemed insufficient, you go for the next logical division: quarters of a month.

 

Once every seventh day has been deemed "unsuitable for work", and it has quenched civil unrest, and to anybody who asks why, you say that "you made the decision based on the stars", which are associated with the gods, you get a public perception of a god-given rule to abide by, and the concept sticks and perpetuates by itself as only natural forever.

 

Middle East civilizations were the first neolithic ones and we all inherit from them. Thus our tradition lasts.

 

OK, so I know it seems a "logical" argument but not necessarily the real one. Just google it up which is what the pseudo-"reporter" should have done.

 

Can one have other divisions? Sure. The French tried to divide it in tens during the French Revolution. Others may count with fingers as well, but only one hand. Or use any other base.

 

From the little I know of Mathematical Archaeology, and of humans, most likely humans (and pre-humans) have always wanted to have rests, parties or "motives for celebration" and the counting base may have been anything. It might have been seed/harvest, animal migratory events, menstrual cycles (23-31 days in rhesus, BTW), but the concept surely is older than modern humans and maybe even monkeys; for all we know, it should be inherent to most animals and thus, natural for all of us.

 

Yeah, it is not as "romantic" as selling a "magic", "unfathomable", dark "mystery" that is impossible to reveal, and less likely to attract clicks to your web page. But it's natural enough that any one should arrive at something similar.

 

no doubt about it, it derives from astronomy, division of the month into quarters based on the lunar cycles, and religious/social need to identify a day of rest, justified beyond any raised doubt by the need to "praise god". Any other explanation is pure fantasy...

Interesting also to note that many different populations adopted the 7 day week independently (going to show that the lunar cycle was unavoidably universally recognized as a means of calculating time).