MONTBLANC as STATUS SYMBOL.... a turnoff for you?

[inkstainedruth]

49 minutes ago, amberleadavis said:

 

I adore you!   You get me.

When my brother was in IIRC in middle school, the Drama Club put on a production of the play version of Get Smart, and he either played Max or the mad scientist after the princess that Max was supposed to protect.  I can still remember the code phrase that Max and 99 were supposed to use to connect: "Mets win double header".  Only apparently the Mets DID win a double header that day, so of course Max is getting confused.  So when 99 comes up to him and uses the code, he's like "Yeah, yeah -- I KNOW..."  and she says, "No, you don't understand -- the score was 99 to 86!"

And of course my favorite episode of the series, from when I was a kid, is when Max and 99's twins are about to be born.  Control is chasing after a villain named "Simon the Likable" but of course he just smiles and charms them and goes his merry way.  Only Max's mom is trying to call everyone and their cousin to say that she's about to become a grandmother on the pay phone in the hospital lobby, and Simon bumps into her, so she decks him!  The Chief basically looks at her in disbelief, and says, "How did you manage to apprehend him, when everyone ELSE failed?" and she says "HE MADE ME DROP ALL MY DIMES!" 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[amberleadavis]

@inkstainedruth  OH My, how very MOM, "he made me drop all my dimes"!!!

[amberleadavis]

3 hours ago, SpecTP said:

I didn't.. must have missed it by -][- much..

LOL

[Philip W]

For some MB owners, their fountain pen is used as status symbol in today's society. I was quite surprised that many users of fountain pen doesn't pay much attention in their penmanship quality.

From watching many Youtube videos about fountain pen, it is pitiful to see how some writes terribly with a fine writing instrument(aka a pen!) Its a shame that if you don't realize that your writing style reflects your personality. User needs to learn how to hold and write with a function pen. Its terrible to watch people writing with a fountain pen as if they are writing with a ball point pen. This applies to writing using low cost pen as well as a prestige and overpriced MB.  

 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Philip W

[Karmachanic]

My penmanship is execrable.  I very much enjoy writing with well balanced, well designed, and well made fountain pens, including MBs current and vintage.

        I write for my own purpose and enjoyment

 

[Recursion]

12 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

I write for my own purpose and enjoymen

Hear hear. I don’t care what other people think of my writing style or writing instrument(s) as long as I enjoy it/them it’s all good to me

[txomsy]

2 hours ago, Philip W said:

From watching many Youtube videos about fountain pen, it is pitiful to see how some writes terribly with a fine writing instrument(aka a pen!) Its a shame that if you don't realize that your writing style reflects your personality.

That's not true in any way whatsoever.

 

The graphology myth has been debunked many times over and over.

 

The way one writes does not tell much. Just like the color of the eyes does not tell about the personality of anybody or wearing a huge diamond and gold ring won't make anyone a nicer person. That perception is what makes people go after an item as a way to show off some supposed "status" as if the tool made the person and not the other way around.

 

To be true, I do not get it. Picture the archetypal MD. Are you implying they should be denied use of FPs because of notorious bad writing? Or that they are the kind of careless, ugly person that a misled interpretation of the archetype medical writing might otherwise suggest? I hope you never get sick, I'd be terrified in your place.

 

What of a calligrapher who has not warmed up their hands yet? Should they warm up with a BIC by decree? Is it the case that all calligraphers are great people and the rest of us are nasty to some degree? Or is it that everybody should cultivate longhand even if they have more important/useful things to do --like saving lives if one is an MD?

 

The cobbler to his last and the gunner to his linstock. But not exclusively. While each should strive for excellence in their own trade, not necessarily should all be required to excel in all trades or to stay away if the don't.

 

A fountain pen is just another tool. It does not demand "nice longhand" any more than a BIC, a calamus, a dip pen, a pencil or a stick in the sand. No reason to shy away from a tool just because one is "not worthy" of it. Just look at some of the blokes who wear heavy jewelry.

 

But then, I favor content over form. Not anybody is required to do as well.

 

[bunnspecial]

50 minutes ago, txomsy said:

 

What of a calligrapher who has not warmed up their hands yet? Should they warm up with a BIC by decree? Is it the case that all calligraphers are great people and the rest of us are nasty to some degree? Or is it that everybody should cultivate longhand even if they have more important/useful things to do --like saving lives if one is an MD?

 

Years ago, I knew an excellent calligrapher who had also written a book(totally unrelated to his calligraphy but on a different topic on which he was incredibly knowledgeable). He and his co-author did a book signing, and as I was interested in the book I I bought a copy and had him sign it.

 

This was before I really was "in" to fountain pens and know he was signing with one but couldn't tell you what it was. Knowing the guy, I'm sure it was something fairly nice and likely vintage.

 

The first few books he signed were a lovely copperplate that might have been mistaken for being printed in the book.

 

By the time I got to him, about 20 back, the note I received was certainly legible, but a more conventional and not particular embellished script.

 

By the time he'd signed maybe 60 books-a doctor might have won a penmanship contest against him.

 

I mention all of that to agree with your main point-bad handwriting is not an indication of the person.

Say what you will about me, but I use FPs because I enjoy them, not because I have any pretext of writing beautifully with them. Of course there are things about them that work in my favor for legibility-in particular provided I'm using a comfortable pen my writing tends to decay less with long sessions than it would with a BP or even with an uncomfortable FP. I go in spurts of attempting to learn Spencerian, and on a good day can make a passable attempt but nothing I'd care to show off(there's a reason why writing examples I post here are in my "regular" every day writing).

 

In addition, fountain pens make me WANT to write because I enjoy using them. Longer handwritten notes and letters, which I do regularly, are something I might not do if I didn't enjoy the devices I'm using to generate them. I can type a lot faster than I can write, so it's certainly not the most efficient way for me to put thoughts into words.

 

I'd hope someone wouldn't see fit to "ban" me from any of my MBs or my other prized pens because of that.

[Philip W]

1 hour ago, txomsy said:

That's not true in any way whatsoever.

 

The graphology myth has been debunked many times over and over.

 

The way one writes does not tell much. Just like the color of the eyes does not tell about the personality of anybody or wearing a huge diamond and gold ring won't make anyone a nicer person. That perception is what makes people go after an item as a way to show off some supposed "status" as if the tool made the person and not the other way around.

 

To be true, I do not get it. Picture the archetypal MD. Are you implying they should be denied use of FPs because of notorious bad writing? Or that they are the kind of careless, ugly person that a misled interpretation of the archetype medical writing might otherwise suggest? I hope you never get sick, I'd be terrified in your place.

 

What of a calligrapher who has not warmed up their hands yet? Should they warm up with a BIC by decree? Is it the case that all calligraphers are great people and the rest of us are nasty to some degree? Or is it that everybody should cultivate longhand even if they have more important/useful things to do --like saving lives if one is an MD?

 

The cobbler to his last and the gunner to his linstock. But not exclusively. While each should strive for excellence in their own trade, not necessarily should all be required to excel in all trades or to stay away if the don't.

 

A fountain pen is just another tool. It does not demand "nice longhand" any more than a BIC, a calamus, a dip pen, a pencil or a stick in the sand. No reason to shy away from a tool just because one is "not worthy" of it. Just look at some of the blokes who wear heavy jewelry.

 

But then, I favor content over form. Not anybody is required to do as well.

 

I can see your points and won't disagree with your comments. I considered penmanship as training in an art form while handwriting is based on one's penmanship skills.  

 

Regarding MD's writing, its pathetic that maybe only pharmacists or other medical professional can decipher the contents. Most of the time I certainly can't make much out of their writing. My training is engineering based, and was taught to document with clear and precise with accuracy. 

 

There are obvious many ways to use any tool and fountain pen is just one of them. When the creation of words from ones writing are so mess up it does show one's sloppiness. 

 

[txomsy]

I wouldn't call sloppy the MD that saves my life. The neurosurgeon or the one that makes a heart transplant. When I was in the hospital I remember this Heart surgery professor that wouldn't allow a student get close to the table until they were able to properly sew a grape skin. I wouldn't call that sloppy.

 

To each their own. In many places a doctor is more concerned about patients than penmanship. And I do know several whose penmanship is excellent --outside the clinic. Not that they do it intently, but comes out natural when you've got a long queue of patients and do not want to expend valuable time in making it legible. No need to. The context is often enough for the pharmacist or other doctors to interpret the scribble and that saved time is health for others.

 

I'd venture many other jobs are similar. You care for the work well done, and writing has only a remotely minor role. You reserve all your care for what really demands it.

 

In fact, I'd rather be tempted to consider the opposite. When I was in wet research lab (and it was similar when in computer hacker environments) anyone wearing a suit was immediately labeled as a non-technical person, a marketroid more concerned with the looks than getting a proper job done, someone whose lack of knowledge meant you couldn't trust them and that would quickly elicit diffidence.

 

One may make the point that a non-writing professional who pays more attention to proper writing than proper working is more concerned about the looks than about the quality of their work (which they could be improving instead). Which might be considered another way to spell sloppiness.

 

My point is: there are many reasons one can behave in any specific way and any simplification is bound to bite back.

[inkstainedruth]

 

1 hour ago, Philip W said:

There are obvious many ways to use any tool and fountain pen is just one of them. When the creation of words from ones writing are so mess up it does show one's sloppiness. 

 

NOT NECESSARILY....

A friend of my husband's and mine got dinged for her poor penmanship.  When her parents went to discuss the matter with her teacher, the teacher apparently said "She's not staying within the lines..." and her dad said "WHAT lines?"

Turns out that our friend was born without lenses in her eyes.  Probably an inherited disability, given her father.  

Our friend is a tech writer, BTW....  She is (or at least was) also a talented calligrapher and illuminator, and is musician and singer (she and her husband both sing in the amateur madrigal choir I'm in).

For you to make assumptions about our friend's character, based on a DISABILITY is totally offensive....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[bunnspecial]

I'm sitting here thinking about a couple of students I've had in the past year.

 

I can think of one whose writing was not exactly decorative, but was so neat that it looked typed. Their letterforms, spacing, and everything else were both that good and that repeatable, and without a doubt some of the most legible work I've ever read.

 

Their legibility did make it very easy to find partial credit to give them, which I did a lot as they had essentially no grasp of the material and their exam grades were generously in the 20-30% range.

 

This semester, I have a student whose writing is very sloppy. I can read it, but they're not going to win a penmanship contest anytime soon. Sizing, spacing, and letterforms are all over the place.

 

None the less, on the exam I graded Friday, I nearly could have used this student's exam as a key. I found two very minor mistakes. Even more so, though, I'd put a fairly difficult bonus question the exam, and this student was the only one who not only attempted it(a few others wrote a few things that were on the right track, but got stuck early into it) but got it completely correct. Thanks to this, the student earned the highest grade in a class full of excellent students, beating out by a couple of points a student who DID have a perfect exam(and it wasn't particularly neat either) but didn't attempt the bonus question.

 

I teach Chemistry, not penmanship, and most of my students in one particular class are either pre-med or engineering(the first, where I mentioned nearly flawless writing, is primarily geared toward nursing and dental hygiene).

[Karmachanic]

1 hour ago, Philip W said:

My training is engineering based, and was taught to document with clear and precise with accuracy. 

 

Yeah. Well, mine wasn't and I don't.    Point being your bias is just that.  Fortunately we're not all the same.  One can be educated, well dressed, charming, with exquisite manners, barely legible hand writing, and still be an upstanding, respected member of society. 

      On the other hand one could have a beautiful hand and be despicable.

      Off to have a scribble!

[Philip W]

3 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Yeah. Well, mine wasn't and I don't.    Point being your bias is just that.  Fortunately we're not all the same.  One can be educated, well dressed, charming, with exquisite manners, barely legible hand writing, and still be an upstanding, respected member of society. 

      On the other hand one could have a beautiful hand and be despicable.

      Off to have a scribble!

Well said .... hmm

 

[Philip W]

4 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

 

NOT NECESSARILY....

A friend of my husband's and mine got dinged for her poor penmanship.  When her parents went to discuss the matter with her teacher, the teacher apparently said "She's not staying within the lines..." and her dad said "WHAT lines?"

Turns out that our friend was born without lenses in her eyes.  Probably an inherited disability, given her father.  

Our friend is a tech writer, BTW....  She is (or at least was) also a talented calligrapher and illuminator, and is musician and singer (she and her husband both sing in the amateur madrigal choir I'm in).

For you to make assumptions about our friend's character, based on a DISABILITY is totally offensive....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

Well inkstainedruth, there is always exception to the norm.

My comments are by no means intend to offend those with disability. Peace...

[Tom Kellie]

5 hours ago, bunnspecial said:

I'm sitting here thinking about a couple of students I've had in the past year.

 

I can think of one whose writing was not exactly decorative, but was so neat that it looked typed. Their letterforms, spacing, and everything else were both that good and that repeatable, and without a doubt some of the most legible work I've ever read.

 

Their legibility did make it very easy to find partial credit to give them, which I did a lot as they had essentially no grasp of the material and their exam grades were generously in the 20-30% range.

 

This semester, I have a student whose writing is very sloppy. I can read it, but they're not going to win a penmanship contest anytime soon. Sizing, spacing, and letterforms are all over the place.

 

None the less, on the exam I graded Friday, I nearly could have used this student's exam as a key. I found two very minor mistakes. Even more so, though, I'd put a fairly difficult bonus question the exam, and this student was the only one who not only attempted it(a few others wrote a few things that were on the right track, but got stuck early into it) but got it completely correct. Thanks to this, the student earned the highest grade in a class full of excellent students, beating out by a couple of points a student who DID have a perfect exam(and it wasn't particularly neat either) but didn't attempt the bonus question.

 

I teach Chemistry, not penmanship, and most of my students in one particular class are either pre-med or engineering(the first, where I mentioned nearly flawless writing, is primarily geared toward nursing and dental hygiene).

 

@bunnspecial: Thank you for your comment.

 

I'm a retired life sciences professor who jhas returned to the workforce as a high school English instructor.

 

What you've written rings very true to me.

 

      Tom K.

[maclink]

19 hours ago, Philip W said:

There are obvious many ways to use any tool and fountain pen is just one of them. When the creation of words from ones writing are so mess up it does show one's sloppiness. 

Hmmm.  I think this a bit harsh.  I would be curious about how much attention etc. an individual with poor handwriting pays to something that they are particularly interested in.  I'm sure we will not be disappointed.

 

I'm not surprised to hear that you were taught to write clearly.  Not all are taught or are interested, for that matter, in making it a priority and furthermore, taking the time and effort to make their handwriting great.  IMO, it's just a matter of priority and attention.  We cannot pay careful attention to every aspect of our lives.   We each have our own individual mix of priorities, preferences, focuses etc.  Before making assumptions about someone based on their poor handwriting, it may be better to try to find out what it is that is of great meaning to that person.  You will likely find a lot more attention to detail etc. and care in those areas of interest which may well, in turn, be of poor quality in your own life.

[NoType]

Though not agreeing with the majority opinion here about efforts to improve handwriting getting in the way of, or cannibalising time spent on, a vocation, profession, or interest (travelling back in time and gathering opinions of those who trained in copperplate before the advent of the typewriter might reveal fascinating counterarguments), please allow me to observe that this subject is far off topic and be so bold as to suggest that any interest it may have held is fairly exhausted.  
 

Perhaps I am only speaking for myself, but the original topic — whether Montblanc’s brand serves as a status symbol and if that is off-putting — is far more diverting, and deserving of focus.  To that end, allow me to contribute that whatever status an observer might perceive a Montblanc fountain pen user to possess is, in my case, immaterial and mostly irrelevant, for I admire and enjoy the product far too much to pay more than cursory attention to how I look to others, although I do admit that the Maison’s branding efforts can be at times distracting at best, and annoying at worst.  That Grete Gross was an innovator in her field of design, a marketer nonpareil, and responsible at least in part for Montblanc’s current position, I venture, is indisputable.  Perhaps Montblanc being a status symbol today is an understandable outcome of its branding history, but I am very grateful to Frau Groß for helping us enjoy remarkable Montblanc fountain pens today.

[inkstainedruth]

22 hours ago, Philip W said:

Well inkstainedruth, there is always exception to the norm.

My comments are by no means intend to offend those with disability. Peace...

The older I get the less I believe in "the norm".  I think that the "exceptions" are more likely to be "the norm" than "the norm" itself.  Because WHOSE "norm"?  What makes it "the norm"?  (Remember, at least in the US, a century and a half ago "the norm" included things like slavery....)

My husband has TERRIBLE handwriting.  I chalk it up to a combination of being dyslexic, getting negative reinforcement to reading for pleasure -- i.e., reading fiction -- and being subjected to an experimental phonics program in elementary school, for which he was both badly taught and given NO remedial stuff when the powers that be decided it didn't actually work (my mother fought tooth and nail to keep me out of that same program since I knew how to read in kindergarten).  But he has OTHER skills to make up for those deficiencies (the dyslexia got spotted by a student teacher, but the phonics program was picked up by one of his college professors whose niece was subjected to the same program).  And yet he is articulate and an excellent software engineer; he's also a terrific cook and started a sideline food business that has been moderately successful before COVID hit.

I once took a class on the different forms of "learning" (as in how to those different forms in order to teach things to a variety of people -- since some people learn better by doing, some people have better kinesthetic sense, some people by reading, etc.) It was taught in conjunction with my other hobby, where people do all sorts of different activities all in the furtherance of the goal of the organization.  The guy who taught the class was a fencer.  I've taught hands-on embroidery classes and more lecture-style classes.  But it was a fascinating class and I'm so glad I took it.  

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[txomsy]

Well, I think MB as status symbol is not so different from good handwriting as a personality mirror. In both cases one is judging the person by something that needs not be related at all to personality traits.

 

It is like that old tale of a fool who put on the hat of a sage to become a sage himself thinking it would somehow transfer the ideas. Many imitate the traits of successful people in a useless attempt to become successful themselves (or to be perceived as such). That does not mean the imitated had no valid reason to get it, only that the imitators had no idea what the original reason was.

 

I think that by now, many have voiced their opinion that MB are fine writing instruments. I can but agree. So, for me, if someone gets it as a fine writing instrument, then it is obviously not a status symbol (no matter how expensive, each has their own reasons to expend their money in any way they want and each of us have a different system of values).  If someone gets it because they think it will make them look better, that is neither a status symbol to me, but a tell away of a specific kind of person. If someone gets it because it is expensive and not affordable to the rest, then, maybe that might be a status symbol.

 

I prefer Levis' jeans because they have -for me- always lasted 10-20 times more than cheap unbranded jeans. For me it is a business decision, an economic trade off, I prefer to buy less and save up my money to get them whenever I need to (which is once every so many years). Then when worn out, I take them to a tailor who can do a great fix for 5 EUR --and get a longer life off them. I know many who consider that a Levis, and specially a worn-out one since they became fashionable is a status symbol. All I can say, is while they keep on wasting their money, I do save up a lot by using a quality item that lasts far, far more. If being mindful of economics makes you belong to a different "status", then let it be so. If being mindlessly wasteful makes you belong to a different "status", then, I have nothing to argue.

 

But, personally, I prefer to think that being mindful of economy is a sign not of status but of care and thoughtfulness, and that being mindlessly wasteful and chasing ephemeral fashions is a sign of a different personality trait. Which might or not be associated to status but -to me- certainly is not the same thing.