MONTBLANC as STATUS SYMBOL.... a turnoff for you?

[maclink]

I think there are two levels of status symbolism, ie the more overt that we’ve been discussing, ie, the show that the larger group will see and understand. 

 

However, I don’t think the show has to necessarily be for the general public or larger audience. It could be a show to a smaller audience that is meaningful. Uncial mentioned the fountain pen community for a fountain pen enthusiast.  So if the FP community knows the product then that’s enough. It makes one look in the mirror and be happy with one’s status within the FP community.

 

Sheer cost of the item is the most common metric for status determination.  For MB pens it certainly is a metric but not the only one. 

[Mercian]

3 hours ago, Uncial said:

…I just can't see how in this whole new playing field that a Montblanc pen (or any other pen) would retain any kind of a status outside of a small interest group.

 

Good points.

Here in England, outside of school/university I’ve only ever seen two other people actually using FPs (a Consultant Cardiologist, and a Judge).

And only three people have ever commented on my use of one.

 

I wonder how many of us have moved in circles in which pens are actually used as ‘status symbols’.

 

I do remember seeing one poster on FPN saying that he saw somebody else using a Montblanc in a meeting, so started to talk to him about it, and that the guy said that he had previously worked in finance (iirc), and that in his previous job everybody had had Montblancs. That owning one was almost like an ‘unofficial uniform code’ in that company.

 

But that’s ‘fully’ one post that I can remember seeing, in ten years (or so) of membership here.

 

Edit to add:

Plus the OP in this thread 

I’m not going senile; honest! 🤪

 

[Mercian]

1 hour ago, maclink said:

Sheer cost of the item is the most common metric for status determination.  For MB pens it certainly is a metric but not the only one.

Indeed not.

High quality of materials and manufacture are two, great choice of nibs is another.

And then there’s the long history of making high-quality pens.

[txomsy]

Problem then is the definition of status and symbolism.

 

For me someone who wears a t-shirt with a humongous D&G in bright shiny letters is not someone who can claim a special status, but rather the opposite: it is all too common and undistinctive. Real status symbols are to be recognized unmistakably: that comes with an attitude, and it is that what matters actually. For a "higher" social status, what I have seen is that they will often wear discrete items that do not draw attention but whose quality is very easily recognizable by those in the know. And they do for the quality, not because it can be recognized.

 

A tailor-made suit by a great tailor will not bear marks. Yet it will tell itself away some way or another. Not because it is made to draw attention. But vicuna, alpaca, silk, cashmere, etc. have properties that will sooner or later set their owner apart (when it is too cold or too hot, when the light is right, when they don't sweat...).

 

For those that (to them) matter, it is not the brand that matters, but the quality and how (at least apparently carelessly) you wear it. One who wears an expensive item as if it had no value, sends  the message "I care about quality, but not about cost". One who wears it for display sends the message "I want to be perceived as those other guys", which for some might be considered lame.

 

Note the "I do not care about cost". In my experience people in that "higher status" will not care if you wear Zara, Prada or Balenciaga, or just a BIC or any cheap item. They will rather consider why do you wear it, and if it makes sense won't give it a second thought. When you have an abundance of anything, you do not pay attention to it (money, power, whatever).

 

It is the aspiring wannabees that usually do care about status symbols. The ones who think the tool makes the person and not the other way around. Those are prone to think if you do not wear this  or that brand, you are nothing, and they want it to be highly and prominently visible to make it clear to all others that they "appear to belong" where they think those symbols belong. Which, if they did belong, in the first place, they wouldn't care to show.

 

Actually, and that's again in my experience, those who can claim the higher status are most often prone to try to pass unnoticed, and not be perceived as  different. It is that they do not care about cost that gives them away, not the brands they wear.

 

But that's been my experience, and YMMV.

[fpupulin]

I rather agree with txomsy's analysis.

 

A status symbol need to be recognized to work as such. This, in my opinion, means at the same time that the brand has to be recognized by means of its specific signals, and that has to be recognized as significantly expensive (in his product category).

 

Here were I live, in Costa Rica, it may be that a limited group of Costa Ricans may recognize the symbol of Montblanc, because the brand has a very reduced - but not completely invisible - presence at the airport and in one of the commercial malls. Nobody, however, use fountain pens, and I guess that probably less than one over thousand will recognize a fountain pen, less so a Montblanc fountain pen. Investing money to buy a Montblanc pen in Costa Rica as a status symbol would be quite a comic fail... .

 

Having lived in Italy for 36 years, I would adventure saying that most Italians could recognize a Montblanc pen (not sure if they can distinguish between a fountain pen and a roller, though), as Italians are more exposed to the brand and its communication, aimed a transmitting a message of "exclusive and expensive" items, through the windows of boutiques in the main cities, ADs, and direct advertising in media. So, would one "send a message" through its pen, probably a number of Italians would be able to understand the message (approving or disapproving, but this is not the point).   

 

As to the people on this forum, I would say - after reading many posts in many subforms - that nobody's interested in sending a "status symbol message" neither by means of a Montblanc pen, nor with any other pen, how much expensive it to could be. Not to his peers, at least, but probably also to nobody else in the outer world. Just buying what they like and consider functional.

[ethernautrix]

I agree that context is important, if not crucial, for status to have any meaning.

 

I was listening to this podcast, Tokyo Inklings, episode 17: [link]

 

It was about ten, fifteen minutes into the conversation when CY and Akane talked about being in school (in their teens, as I understood it) and school supplies and how the right pencil case could signify its owner as "one of the cool kids." And I realized, Yeah, first you have to fit in before you can stand out.

 

The podcast centers on the pen/ink/stationery world of Tokyo/Japan and other Pacific Rim countries, and I've been binge-listening to it for a couple of days while on long walks with the dog. (I speed it up at 1.3 - 1.5x, depending, haha.)

 

[max dog]

Montblanc has a "Status Symbol" aspect to it that no one can deny, and at the same time they offer some of the finest writing experiences too.  

 

Status Symbol: Their brand prestige and fame is the best.  If Status Symbol is what you want, look no further.  Even the most fountain pen ignorant will know Montblanc, but will likely never have heard of a Nakaya or Visconti.  

 

Writing Excellence: Montblanc could not sustain their leadership in the luxury market if their pens did not live up to the hype.  The fact they produce their own nibs, and offer so many nib sizes, including Calligraphy flex and custom Bespoke nib options, shows they are passionate about their craft, and are not there to merely exploit the consumer.   They could easily go the sourcing out the nib, and offering just fine and medium nib path if all they were about was Status Symbol, but they don't.  They push the fountain pen and writing instrument envelope, offering their loyal customers the absolute best in writing passion.

[inkstainedruth]

5 hours ago, ethernautrix said:

It was about ten, fifteen minutes into the conversation when CY and Akane talked about being in school (in their teens, as I understood it) and school supplies and how the right pencil case could signify its owner as "one of the cool kids." And I realized, Yeah, first you have to fit in before you can stand out.

I spent a good chunk of my life NOT being "one of the cool kids", up into college.  Now, when it matters to me a LOT less, I've found that, on here (and also in my other hobby, where I've gotten the highest level service award), I AM one of the cool kids....  

Go figure.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[desidude02]

4 hours ago, max dog said:

Montblanc has a "Status Symbol" aspect to it that no one can deny, and at the same time they offer some of the finest writing experiences too.  

 

Status Symbol: Their brand prestige and fame is the best.  If Status Symbol is what you want, look no further.  Even the most fountain pen ignorant will know Montblanc, but will likely never have heard of a Nakaya or Visconti.  

 

Writing Excellence: Montblanc could not sustain their leadership in the luxury market if their pens did not live up to the hype.  The fact they produce their own nibs, and offer so many nib sizes, including Calligraphy flex and custom Bespoke nib options, shows they are passionate about their craft, and are not there to merely exploit the consumer.   They could easily go the sourcing out the nib, and offering just fine and medium nib path if all they were about was Status Symbol, but they don't.  They push the fountain pen and writing instrument envelope, offering their loyal customers the absolute best in writing passion.

This is exactly why I buy montblanc only, call me a snob if you may but montblanc continues to uphold value in terms of their limited editions and onwards. Granted some models are more garish than others and it is upto each and every human's liking, we all make a choice when we decide to purchase a montblanc. Simple theory: If you dont like it, dont buy it. Dont buy it with hopes of upbringing your "presence" in whichever surrounding that may be because it may or may not be identified. At the end of the day, we all have our own deep pleasures that sometimes are brand related that bring out that inner happiness within you or it may be object related that could come from any source or origin. 

 

Personally speaking, I collect all of the limited editions of Montblanc in fountain pen because while I write with them, I am able to connect and relate with certain aspects of each character/writer/patron that have undergone an insurmountable effort to be "identified" or "recognized" in the community. If they speak to you, you purchase them and if they dont you simply hope for next year as the year that brings you happiness. 

 

While many other brands may be tasteful to others, it doesnt have to be the standard "norm" for EVERY human to fit in. We all enjoy different things and while I may enjoy only Montblanc fountain pens for various reasons; that has no relevance to the world as it will continue to go on with or without my identification with a brand or an object. 

 

Love your pens, use them up and remember nothing is promised for tomorrow. 

 

Enjoy the picture below

 

Steve

@montblanctherapy 

 

 

[austollie]

For me, the fact that MBs are status symbols is a turn off, but not sufficient to stop me writing with mine.  I am a passionate collector of the 1970s MB Carrera line.  At the time, the Carrera (same as the Caressa and Turbo lines) were marketed by MB as sub-brands, aimed at students.  I fell for the marketing hook, line and sinker and that had little to do with the MB brand, but the clever marketing of the sub-brand Carrera (e.g. the tyre stand accessory that also worked with other brands).  When I was a kid, I couldn't afford one, but now I can.

 

So today, I write in meetings with my MB Carrera (which is not a luxury pen, but a student pen) and people have commented on it.  The MB symbol on the finial is, but alas, that recognisable. 

[meiers]

In my world those pens are not a status symbol. No one really cares which pen I use but I do. 

[Mercian]

12 hours ago, meiers said:

In the real world those pens are not a status symbol. No one really cares which pen I use but I do. 

I think that the consensus is that very few FPN members move in a social/work milieu in which anyone regards a Montblanc (or any other pen) as a ‘status symbol’.

But most of us are still aware that this phenomenon is observable in social/work milieus outside of our own.

 

What is interesting (or perhaps I ought to say ‘worthy of remark’) about this is that the knowledge that some people regard/use their ownership of a Montblanc pen as a ‘status symbol’ has ‘tainted’ the brand for some people, even including some of us here on FPN.

 

Humans are strange beasts.

[maclink]

I was just reconsidering the actual topic of the thread, i.e., MB as a status symbol, being a turn off.   The intriguing thing is the phenomenon of mirroring and being turned off by it enough to avoid the brand, even though they may have great products on offer is one for reflection about status awareness and influence.  IOW's, if the brands status symbolism is a turn-off, then status matters to you but not in the way that the MB brand does.

 

I would not buy a Mercedes for instance, because of my concern about the impression (real or imagined) that it may give to some of my peers and friends.  I do get that impression myself which makes it even worse.  😁  So for me, appearances do matter and we do communicate socially through what we wear, own etc.  If I genuinely don't care what others think and am status neutral, then I wouldn't sweat about this issue and purchase a Mercedes on merit if I desire one and think it worth the cost.

 

So personally, I have to admit to myself that my ego is very much active, and as a result, am not status neutral.  I do care what others think based on my appearance and my choices.  Of course, we all have our boundaries and will bow to such influences only to a point.  

 

As a FP enthusiast and active forum member here for not so long, I am certainly surprised at how much MB related threads about this topic exists, and yet there's not much said about all the other luxury pens out there on offer, many of which are at very high prices too.  Perhaps it's the popular opinion of poor value for money that creates the argument that surely, you then buy into the MB brand and products for status.  Sure there are pens on offer at a lower price, but there are many fountain pens from other makers that are more expensive or equally expensive that, IMO, represent similarly debatable value for money.  Many are conspicuously decorated and colourful with all sorts of fancy finishes, and oh, don't you ever leave out that they are hand made or a limited edition. 😉  Nada about status where they are concerned.

 

So it would seem that if the very expensive, luxury product is deemed to be worth the price, then there's no issue with status symbolism in purchasing said product? 

 

 

[amberleadavis]

On 3/12/2022 at 9:36 AM, ethernautrix said:

I agree that context is important, if not crucial, for status to have any meaning.

 

Akane talked about being in school (in their teens, as I understood it) and school supplies and how the right pencil case could signify its owner as "one of the cool kids." And I realized, Yeah, first you have to fit in before you can stand out.

 

 

 

So, I was about to quote @Uncial and reference you about the Nakayas, but then you posted this and well, Akane is an amazing ink.  So, I nerded out.  

 

At this point, I'm happy when I see anyone using a fountain pen, and I fan girl when I see something like a Nakaya.  

 

This weekend at the college Mock Trial semi-finals, one of my students used his fountain pen I'd gifted him. He had multiple people comment on his "fancy" pen.  The commenters were attorneys, judges and one cute girl (according to him).

[txomsy]

That, I find sad. Why should anyone comment on anyone else's choices as "fancy" is, to me, a sign of blatant ignorance. Blatant for it shows an ignorant so full of him/herself that thinks anything they do not choose is necessarily 'fancy'.

 

Me, I prefer to accept my ignorance and, when something strikes me as odd (from my point of view/experience), I prefer to ask the reasons for the choice, lest I miss something relevant, useful, wonderful for my own choices/life.

 

BTW, I can understand many opinionated views, but last time I went buy a car (some 12 years ago) I had a general look at the market, and ended getting a Mercedes. It didn't -not even remotely- have as many extras as other cars in the same prince range and category (including "popular" brands such as Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, Renault, etc..). But, first, I didn't need those extras, second, it had the comfort I value and, most important, it had a technology that has kept it abreast of other brands for the last 12 years. Oh, and a service program that kept my maintenance  costs well below any other brand since I bought it. Now, when other cars start to have similar efficiency/resilience/security/service/lack of contamination, I look back and think I made a good deal renouncing a number of extras I didn't care about in exchange for the things I really value. And, truly, I think I ended up saving money.

 

Much the same as with the Montblanc Noblesse/Slimline: considering how many pens from other brands I had broken before it, and the time it has lasted (and still does), I certainly saved up a helluva lot of money.

 

If I hadn't looked into what each model (from a wide gamut of brands) had to offer, I would have missed this and ended a lot worse (judging from the experience of friends). If I had excluded popularly considered "fancy" or "status" products, I would have ended with a worse choice. For me, it has always paid off to look at the world without prejudices.

 

That, I think, sums it all up: I can understand that status may be a deal breaker for many. And I can but congratulate myself it is not for me, because that means less people looks at the truly great products and thus their prices rise less due to the limited demand, and I can get them at lower prices. So, pray, do keep ignoring them, please.

 

If someone prefers lower quality to satisfy/justify their prejudices, it's their choice, and perfectly OK for me. If it pays off for them, I can only congratulate them for their choice. Each of us has different priorities.

[inkstainedruth]

20 minutes ago, txomsy said:

If someone prefers lower quality to satisfy/justify their prejudices, it's their choice, and perfectly OK for me. If it pays off for them, I can only congratulate them for their choice. Each of us has different priorities.

The point that some of us are trying to make is that it's not necessarily that we prefer "lower quality" so much as we find "good/better quality" in less expensive pens.  Often in WAY less expensive pens.  Nearly every time that anyone who has even noticed what pen I was using (someone, that is, who didn't know me)?  It was one of my Noodler's pens....  The one time it wasn't, it was at my allergist's office one time and I was signing in with the vintage Parker Red Shadow Wave -- which of course is a looker to start with.

I've tried 3 MBs over the years at pen club meetings.  The 146's nib (admittedly an F) was NOT as nice as that of a found-in-the-wild Parker 45 (admittedly an M) for which I'd paid under $11 US.  Sorry, but it just wasn't.  Another time the owner of the 146 had me try a 149.  It *did* have a nicer nib than the 146, but the pen itself was just too big and heavy for me.  I've since tried someone's older MB 22 (?) and it was okay, but not enough better than some of my other pens (like my vintage Parker 51s) to make me rush out to see whether I could find an affordable one on eBay.

I do like a few of their inks (mostly LE ons), but I have less expensive inks that I like as much or more.  For the price of a MB 149, I was able to buy TWO Pelikan M405s -- including the M405 Stresemann -- and those are pens that fit my hand MUCH better.  I certainly would NOT call a Pelikan a "lower quality pen" than a MB....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

edited for typos

[txomsy]

I fully agree. As I said, we have different priorities each of us.

 

And thanks to your response I see I worded min very badly. MY FAULT.

 

I shouldn't have used the word "quality", for it, in itself, is subjective and therefore meaningless in a discussion. What I meant was, probably, "quality as I perceive it", which is obviously a non-sequitur.

 

I should probably have used "different priorities" instead. Which is what I did really mean. For, you are right, other people may value other things and, accordingly, for them an MB would be a less interesting pen, and it would be all right.

 

What I intended to say was that some MB models align (or have aligned) very well with my priorities, to the point where their cost was lower for me than that of other pens which had qualities I didn't value and missed the qualities I sought. Which in my case were durability, good writing, resilience, simple design and, specially, not breaking with my use.

 

So, all, please do accept my apologies for a very badly worded message. I now see how wrong -and even possibly deriding- it was, which was not my intention. But, OTOH, all this talk about status with little regard to how well something aligns with the interests of some customers (unrelated to showing off) was getting at my nerves. For most things I get the cheapest, but for some -which I deem important- I do not mind saving for rather a long time to get what I think will pay me off better in the end. That someone may see the result of that painstaking saving as "status" stretches my tolerance. Or that someone may seem to imply that something should be beyond the reach of mere mortals just because of a miscarried perception.

[inkstainedruth]

That's okay, txomsy -- I'll chalk it up to English probably not being your first language (given the EU flag under your avatar).   

Years ago when I was in college, there was a woman in some of my art classes who had been in a bad car accident getting onto the highway that ran through the city the university was in.  (She had lived in the UK and in France some, and her husband was English.)  She chalked the fact that she walked away from it (another car hit her on the entrance ramp so hard that she was slammed into the guide rail, IIRC) on the car she had (I think she drove a Volvo).  She said she would NEVER buy a car that WASN'T a Volvo or a Saab -- she didn't trust the quality of US-made vehicles (this would have been late 1970s-early 1980s).  That is, however, a very different issue from buying a Volvo or a Saab as a "status symbol".

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[Uncial]

3 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

The point that some of us are trying to make is that it's not necessarily that we prefer "lower quality" so much as we find "good/better quality" in less expensive pens.  Often in WAY less expensive pens

 

Wouldn't that be the case for almost everyone here, if not everyone here? I love TWSBI stubs. I think they're great. I haven't looked recently at prices, but the old Delta Fusion (yes it did have a stupid glued on bit) stub is a thing of wonder for what you could buy it for a few years back. They are both lowly steel nibs and not expensive pens. Perhaps our passion gets in the way of sense and we make it a competition instead of an exploration.

[Uncial]

6 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

This weekend at the college Mock Trial semi-finals, one of my students used his fountain pen I'd gifted him

 

You bring hope to the old in schooling the youth in the ways of our drug of choice. I tried to hook my neices on fountain pens. Bought them pens, a notebook, ink in their favourite colour.....they gave me that look as if to humour a mad uncle they were secretly peeved at.