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Can anyone tell me a method to write properly with a fountain pen?


Chandon
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On 10/26/2021 at 2:34 AM, Chandon said:

Thanks for this. You made a very interesting point about the angle at which you hold a fountain pen. Received wisdom has it that everyone should hold a pen at a very shallow angle - something which I find very unnatural. There is also the issue of how "flat" your hand should be to the page. 

 

A few more things for consideration:

 

  • There are multiple schools of tradition regarding holding a pen. Palmer in the U.S. had one very influential and distinct style, and Spencer a different one before that, but even these canonical U.S. cursive styles admitted a wide range of practical grips. If you read Alfred Fairbank's "A Handwriting Manual" (available online) then you can see that his own treatment of the topic is very different, and, importantly, that the grip he advocates for specifically contradicts the advice of Palmer, because the two are aiming for different types of writing with different types of pen points. Briem's "Handwriting Repair" manual includes a nice historical treatment of different grips as well as some diagnostic considerations. 
  • It could help a lot if you could take pictures or video of your hand writing with a fountain pen of your choice. That would help identify what might be causing issues.
  • If you hold your pen at a near vertical angle, there are some pen points that are better for that than others. Large coarse/broad nibs with ball tipping and waverly nibs are both friendly to more vertical writing depending on the precise grind. A very wet fountain pen can lubricate the pen and mitigate some rotational issues.
  • If you have a tendency to "grind" your nib into the paper because of too much pressure, Lamy and Pelikan both make, I think, an A-style nib, which is a very heavy, stiff nib designed for school kids who haven't mastered pens yet. They are meant to be more able to handle the pressure and aggression of young hands, but that design might also make them suitable for hands that aren't attuned to more sensitive fountain pen nibs. 
  • A shallow angle is definitely not required or even something you might want, depending on the pen and the like, but I think some people emphasize this because if you go truly vertical, which is how many students learn to use a ballpoint (because it tends to be more optimal), then you start to exceed the comfortable range of a fountain pen tip more easily.
  • Fountain pens work best when you're gripping in such a way that your "pen stroke" naturally travels parallel to the. Many people have a pen stroke that travels in a downward arc, thus increasing pressure in the mid stroke. That tends to induce both rotation of the nib and pressure on the nib in the middle of the stroke, the combination of which can make pens write scratchy, move tines out of alignment, and cause catching. Alfred Fairbank treats this in his manual, as do others. Where you want that pressure stroke is under controlled conditions with flex nibs, but that's definitely not the writing you're trying to achieve.
  • You may also find that the right ink can make a nib write quite differently, so it might be useful to know if you have an ink that you're using specifically. 
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17 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

A few more things for consideration:

 

  • There are multiple schools of tradition regarding holding a pen. Palmer in the U.S. had one very influential and distinct style, and Spencer a different one before that, but even these canonical U.S. cursive styles admitted a wide range of practical grips. If you read Alfred Fairbank's "A Handwriting Manual" (available online) then you can see that his own treatment of the topic is very different, and, importantly, that the grip he advocates for specifically contradicts the advice of Palmer, because the two are aiming for different types of writing with different types of pen points. Briem's "Handwriting Repair" manual includes a nice historical treatment of different grips as well as some diagnostic considerations. 
  • It could help a lot if you could take pictures or video of your hand writing with a fountain pen of your choice. That would help identify what might be causing issues.
  • If you hold your pen at a near vertical angle, there are some pen points that are better for that than others. Large coarse/broad nibs with ball tipping and waverly nibs are both friendly to more vertical writing depending on the precise grind. A very wet fountain pen can lubricate the pen and mitigate some rotational issues.
  • If you have a tendency to "grind" your nib into the paper because of too much pressure, Lamy and Pelikan both make, I think, an A-style nib, which is a very heavy, stiff nib designed for school kids who haven't mastered pens yet. They are meant to be more able to handle the pressure and aggression of young hands, but that design might also make them suitable for hands that aren't attuned to more sensitive fountain pen nibs. 
  • A shallow angle is definitely not required or even something you might want, depending on the pen and the like, but I think some people emphasize this because if you go truly vertical, which is how many students learn to use a ballpoint (because it tends to be more optimal), then you start to exceed the comfortable range of a fountain pen tip more easily.
  • Fountain pens work best when you're gripping in such a way that your "pen stroke" naturally travels parallel to the. Many people have a pen stroke that travels in a downward arc, thus increasing pressure in the mid stroke. That tends to induce both rotation of the nib and pressure on the nib in the middle of the stroke, the combination of which can make pens write scratchy, move tines out of alignment, and cause catching. Alfred Fairbank treats this in his manual, as do others. Where you want that pressure stroke is under controlled conditions with flex nibs, but that's definitely not the writing you're trying to achieve.
  • You may also find that the right ink can make a nib write quite differently, so it might be useful to know if you have an ink that you're using specifically. 

Thanks for this very useful advice. I only have/use two inks - Pilot Blue Black and Waterman blue. I use these in all of the pens as they are supposed to be good, everyday inks, and so I have a consistent experience.

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18 hours ago, arcfide said:
  • A shallow angle is definitely not required or even something you might want, depending on the pen and the like, but I think some people emphasize this because if you go truly vertical, which is how many students learn to use a ballpoint (because it tends to be more optimal), then you start to exceed the comfortable range of a fountain pen tip more easily.
  • Fountain pens work best when you're gripping in such a way that your "pen stroke" naturally travels parallel to the. Many people have a pen stroke that travels in a downward arc, thus increasing pressure in the mid stroke. That tends to induce both rotation of the nib and pressure on the nib in the middle of the stroke, the combination of which can make pens write scratchy, move tines out of alignment, and cause catching.

 

This is roughly how I do hold my pen to write in English. (The positioning of my camera and tripod in relation to the table, and the placement of the notepad to get a better angle, made me sit at a slightly unusual and uncomfortable position while doing this.)

 

837264443_PelikanwritingsampleinPlatinumCitrusBlack.jpg.0f4f61ebe3ae5e30af356cc9fb22db3d.jpg

 

My grip is unschooled and unconventional, I suppose, and I certainly wouldn't call it ‘proper’; nor is my cursive writing particularly neat, though.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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3 minutes ago, txomsy said:

Shouldn't that be Esperanto? :)

 

Yes; and it doesn't make any difference to the accuracy in saying that's roughly how I hold my pen to write in English. :)

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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@A Smug Dill has provided a great example to look at. I'd say that's a grip that's pretty common among ballpoint pen holders. It's definitely on the high side of vertical, but notice that the angle of writing and the way the writing is formed will make sure that the pen never has to really get steeper than that angle, so you won't go over 90 degrees or even get to 90 degrees during normal writing. Compare this against someone whose hold might seem identical, but who holds the pen almost exactly vertical and has a more loopy, bold style of writing (I've known a lot of mostly female writers to do this), the combination of both of these things might mean that a lot of the writing might happen with the pen past 90 degrees. Just that difference could make the fountain pen feel worse. 

 

On the other hand, the size of ASD's writing along with the stroke directions means that the vast majority of strokes are going to be in that "most comfortable" range of the bottom 180 degrees of the pen tip. There's very little time spent on a direct nib-oriented up stroke. That will also make the pen on the whole feel a little better. 

 

Also, the hinge point where ASD holds the pen relative to the size of his writing means that he isn't stressing the arc of that stroke very much at all. That's going to make things work out pretty well. I'm sure the stroke would alter a little bit if the writing had to be a 10 or 15mm x-height, for instance. 

 

IOW, even at a sharp angle, ASD isn't stressing the writing range of the pen that much. Some pens probably still wouldn't write their "smoothest" at this angle, but as long as the control is there, I don't see how that would be an issue. Now, I doubt that this same grip and style would work if you were trying to write with a 8mm x-height using a 2mm sharp italic pen at any rate of speed, but fountain pens are generally more forgiving in their normal balltipped grind. 

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Just chiming in with a "me, too!" on steeper writing angles. I write only in European languages, and hold my pen at about 80 degrees. I do have difficulty with oblique nibs,* and given that the OP mentions difficulty finding the right angle, I'd think that rather than recommending an oblique I'd recommend a classic ball tipped nib that is forgiving of angle, possibly broader rather than finer.

 

I agree with what's already been said about relaxing the death grip and not pushing down hard into the paper.

 

*I am also a left handed overwriter, which complicates the picture slightly.

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27 minutes ago, brokenclay said:

I agree with what's already been said about relaxing the death grip and not pushing down hard into the paper.

 

One ‘exercise’ that helped me, albeit not designed or intended to rehabilitate my grip or improve my writing speed, is drawing distinct, parallel straight lines inside 5mm-square areas of the page. I started doing that frequently back in 2019, as a makeshift way of estimating line width (to evaluate nib tipping fineness and/or test inks' aptness to spread). It made me work very hard at finding the threshold of pressure it takes to make a legible, unbroken mark with a pen while trying to get the finest line out of a nib, until it becomes committed to muscle memory.

 

Where I used to think getting only 12 parallel horizontal lines out of decent EF nibs is normal and “about right”, these days I usually get 14 or 15; that takes more precision in placement, less downward pressure, and a quicker stroke (to reduce the volume of ink laid down on the page or, in other words, make the ink mark more ‘dry’).

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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6 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

One ‘exercise’ that helped me, albeit not designed or intended to rehabilitate my grip or improve my writing speed, is drawing distinct, parallel straight lines inside 5mm-square areas of the page. I started doing that frequently back in 2019, as a makeshift way of estimating line width (to evaluate nib tipping fineness and/or test inks' aptness to spread). It made me work very hard at finding the threshold of pressure it takes to make a legible, unbroken mark with a pen while trying to get the finest line out of a nib, until it becomes committed to muscle memory.

 

Where I used to think getting only 12 parallel horizontal lines out of decent EF nibs is normal and “about right”, these days I usually get 14 or 15; that takes more precision in placement, less downward pressure, and a quicker stroke (to reduce the volume of ink laid down on the page or, in other words, make the ink mark more ‘dry’).

Thanks very much. I found this and your video really useful. Much appreciated. 

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10 hours ago, arcfide said:

@A Smug Dill has provided a great example to look at. I'd say that's a grip that's pretty common among ballpoint pen holders. It's definitely on the high side of vertical, but notice that the angle of writing and the way the writing is formed will make sure that the pen never has to really get steeper than that angle, so you won't go over 90 degrees or even get to 90 degrees during normal writing. Compare this against someone whose hold might seem identical, but who holds the pen almost exactly vertical and has a more loopy, bold style of writing (I've known a lot of mostly female writers to do this), the combination of both of these things might mean that a lot of the writing might happen with the pen past 90 degrees. Just that difference could make the fountain pen feel worse. 

 

On the other hand, the size of ASD's writing along with the stroke directions means that the vast majority of strokes are going to be in that "most comfortable" range of the bottom 180 degrees of the pen tip. There's very little time spent on a direct nib-oriented up stroke. That will also make the pen on the whole feel a little better. 

 

Also, the hinge point where ASD holds the pen relative to the size of his writing means that he isn't stressing the arc of that stroke very much at all. That's going to make things work out pretty well. I'm sure the stroke would alter a little bit if the writing had to be a 10 or 15mm x-height, for instance. 

 

IOW, even at a sharp angle, ASD isn't stressing the writing range of the pen that much. Some pens probably still wouldn't write their "smoothest" at this angle, but as long as the control is there, I don't see how that would be an issue. Now, I doubt that this same grip and style would work if you were trying to write with a 8mm x-height using a 2mm sharp italic pen at any rate of speed, but fountain pens are generally more forgiving in their normal balltipped grind. 

Thank you. This was really useful. I'll test this out with a Lamy "A" nib.

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15 hours ago, arcfide said:

I'd say that's a grip that's pretty common among ballpoint pen holders. It's definitely on the high side of vertical, …‹snip›…

IOW, even at a sharp angle, ASD isn't stressing the writing range of the pen that much.

 

The pen looks a whole lot steeper in the video than it actually is, because the camera is shooting from high up and from the ‘wrong’ perspective off the side. I did that to show the ink marks as they get put on the page, and just for fun, the colour difference between a fresh line of writing in Platinum Classic Ink Citrus Black and one that has had half a minute to darken on the paper surface.

 

See also:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/351043-brief-comparison-of-various-lamy-extra-fine-nibs-output/?do=findComment&comment=4274611

The positioning of the camera there was better for measuring the angle. I always rotate the nib 35°–45° counterclockwise when I write ‘normally’, so shooting from the 9 o'clock position in relation to the page does not depict the angle realistically; the camera should be at the 8 o'clock or 7:30 position.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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4 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

I did that to show the ink marks as they get put on the page, and just for fun, the colour difference between a fresh line of writing in Platinum Classic Ink Citrus Black and one that has had half a minute to darken on the paper surface.

 

It's always a good time when you get a chance to show off some Citrus Black. That's a really fun color. 

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  • 2 months later...
On 10/24/2021 at 8:39 AM, DvdRiet said:

Been writing cursive since I was very small, when I learned it in elementary school. So reading that first article about arm writing that Karmachanic shared got me curious about how I actually hold a pen, since it's not really something I think about at all. I learned to write with a pencil and later with ballpoint pens, as we didn't use fountain pens in the US anymore when I was growing up. Once I started getting curious about fountain pens, I did read on one the pen sites that fountain pens require more slant to write properly, but it was really easy for me to figure out how much without really thinking about how I held the pen.

 

What I have noticed just now while testing it out and actually looking at the pen in my hand, is that a ballpoint (requiring a more vertical writing angle) tends to sit up against my index finger just barely above, or forward of I guess I should say, the bottom knuckle on my hand. A fountain pen, on the other hand, sits further down/back, either just up against the underside of that knuckle or further down on the hand at just around the start of the webbing, depending on the length, size and weight of the pen, the placement of the grip and the best place to hold it for balance, and the length of the nib - basically whatever angle feels most comfortable when putting the smoothest, roundest spot on the nib to the paper. I saw some talking about it fitting in the webbing between your thumb and hand/index finger, but I don't think it should just lie in there as if it was a hammock 😁 That seems too far down to me. I think that would create much too small an angle (too low) to be able to write comfortably. Drawing or certain types of calligraphy, maybe, but not regular day-to-day writing. My grip is just regular: resting the bottom of the pen on my middle finger just above the top knuckle and holding it in place on either side of the top with my thumb and index finger, with the rest of my fingers rolled up toward my palm. I do rest that outside edge of my hand and my wrist on the paper or surface for stability - don't know if that's right or wrong, it's just how I've always written and I've never had any issues with cramping (unless it was a reeeeeeaaaaaallllly long letter, haha). 

 

I should note that I am right-handed and I write with the nib straight up and not tilted left or right. I have acquired some obliques lately in my quest of collecting certain pen models (chasing the pen, not the nib, in this case), and I can see how it could feel more comfortable for one to be able to see the whole top side of the nib as you are writing. I've also been enjoying this little variation in the otherwise boring all M bunch of pens that I had before.

 

Hope any of this helps!

Cheers,

Darla

I'm right-handed and I seem to often rotate my FP as time goes on when writing. I rotate counter-clockwise. At first the top of the nib is facing the ceiling (more or less), but over time the face of the nib is facing me as I write (counter-close wise rotation). Would a left-footed oblique nib in say OM or OB solve my rotation tendency? Do people get oblique nib because they counter-clockwise rotate their FPs or more because an oblique nib gives more line variation?

 

After reading your post I wonder if I rotate because I do that automatically when I write with wooden pencils to the get the pencil lead to wear evenly??

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On 10/24/2021 at 7:40 AM, Karmachanic said:

 

 

Could this be because you use your fingers to shape the letters?  If so learn/practice using your arm, from the shoulder.

 

 

 

 

When they say use arm and shoulder, do they mean ideally 100% from arm and shoulder? I'd say I write 85% with my arm and shoulder, 10% fingers, and 5% wrist. Should I strive to make my letters 100% from arm and shoulders?

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43 minutes ago, Centurion said:

I'm right-handed and I seem to often rotate my FP as time goes on when writing. I rotate counter-clockwise. At first the top of the nib is facing the ceiling (more or less), but over time the face of the nib is facing me as I write (counter-close wise rotation). Would a left-footed oblique nib in say OM or OB solve my rotation tendency? Do people get oblique nib because they counter-clockwise rotate their FPs or more because an oblique nib gives more line variation?

 

After reading your post I wonder if I rotate because I do that automatically when I write with wooden pencils to the get the pencil lead to wear evenly??

 

It's funny you mention this, because after I wrote that I have noticed that I am also starting to rotate the nib somewhat counter-clockwise when I used to write with it completely straight. I think most modern nibs can take a decent amount of rotation before they start to loose flow. I'm sure it differs per brand, but I do notice that I can get a decent view of the top of the nib without it cutting out on a lot of my pens. 

 

From what I understand, they are made for people who rotate, but I think the biggest reason for the popularity of left-foot obliques at the moment, at least in the used/vintage pen market, is for the line variation. That's what I've been hearing anyway. Because the point is naturally wider when the tips are at an angle, my experience is that you actually get fairly close to a calligraphy nib in the line width.

 

I do find that writing with them takes a bit of getting used to because you have to find the correct angle and the sweet spot, and that is with the top of the nib fully 'facing' you. But once you've got that figured out, they are kind of fun to write with. So if that is your preferred position for writing, I can definitely recommend trying an oblique. 

 

And I wouldn't be surprised if it has to do with pencil wear, to be honest. That's a really good point! I'm also used to rotating pencils, and even markers / fine liners, to get the 'freshest' or 'most crisp' line.

FP addict thanks to #Penpalooza. Currently can't stop collecting Diplomats.

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13 hours ago, DvdRiet said:

 

It's funny you mention this, because after I wrote that I have noticed that I am also starting to rotate the nib somewhat counter-clockwise when I used to write with it completely straight. I think most modern nibs can take a decent amount of rotation before they start to loose flow. I'm sure it differs per brand, but I do notice that I can get a decent view of the top of the nib without it cutting out on a lot of my pens. 

 

From what I understand, they are made for people who rotate, but I think the biggest reason for the popularity of left-foot obliques at the moment, at least in the used/vintage pen market, is for the line variation. That's what I've been hearing anyway. Because the point is naturally wider when the tips are at an angle, my experience is that you actually get fairly close to a calligraphy nib in the line width.

 

I do find that writing with them takes a bit of getting used to because you have to find the correct angle and the sweet spot, and that is with the top of the nib fully 'facing' you. But once you've got that figured out, they are kind of fun to write with. So if that is your preferred position for writing, I can definitely recommend trying an oblique. 

 

And I wouldn't be surprised if it has to do with pencil wear, to be honest. That's a really good point! I'm also used to rotating pencils, and even markers / fine liners, to get the 'freshest' or 'most crisp' line.

Hmm, I'm going to have to watch more closely on how I write. If rotated is my preferred position or if I just have a tendency to rotate as I write. Sounds like a standard round nib would have a bigger sweet spot and is more forgiving than an oblique, correct?

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15 minutes ago, Centurion said:

If rotated is my preferred position or if I just have a tendency to rotate as I write. Sounds like a standard round nib would have a bigger sweet spot and is more forgiving than an oblique, correct?

 

When using fountain pens, I almost always orient the nib such that the nib slit is somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock. I have not found that I need either an Oblique nib, or a nib that has a large sweet spot, to compensate for it or accommodate it.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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16 hours ago, Centurion said:
On 10/24/2021 at 12:40 PM, Karmachanic said:

When they say use arm and shoulder, do they mean ideally 100% from arm and shoulder?

 

Yes.  Fingers hold the pen in a steady, relaxed grip.

"Simplicate and add Lightness."

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