Did I damage the Pelikan M200 nib?

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, Mysterious Mose said:

If my problem is with the  nib, would you part with one of them?  In fact, one of your nibs might be useful in determining the cause of the problem.

 

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're asking there. Are you asking whether I would (give or sell, and) send you one or more my spare M200 nibs from Australia, to help you determine the cause of the problem and/or get your pen into functional condition?

 

6 hours ago, Mysterious Mose said:

Replacement nibs seem to cost at least $25.00.

 

I got all of my spare M20x nibs (bar one) from Cult Pens in the UK. M200 nib units are listed at between £8.55 and £10.38 (depending on nib width) ex tax, assuming the delivery destination is in the US; and an order value of £66 or above qualified for free international delivery. Several times a year, one can easily get 19% or greater discount on Pelikan products from Cult Pens, so a hobbyist in the US can get nine such nibs for about US$100, maybe a little less, including delivery. (M205 nib units are significantly cheaper, too.)

 

If you're a hobbyist who is prepared to keep a bunch of spare parts on hand, I'd say that's the way to go.

[Bo Bo Olson]

9 hours ago, Mysterious Mose said:

Were your flights to NYC so long ago that Kennedy Airport was called Idlewild?

I knew it as Idlewild, but flew into it after they renamed it.

My first flight was a DC-3 from New Orleans to Charleston, and some sort of military chartered 707 to Frankfurt. When I was 14. in '64.

It was after sunset, when the lying kid that lived in the stairwell below called up Kennedy had been killed. Why believe him? So it took a minute or two to turn on the radio. There was no AFNTV then just AFN Radio, and it hadn't been worth converting the TV to get German programing.....so we were back in Radio Days.

 

Coming to Germany, I expected big bussomed German Girls in Drendles and the Black Forest. I got a bit out of style 'city' girls in flat industrial Mannheim. We lived in the American Ghetto so it didn't really matter.

The German girl I married, wasn't wearing a Drendel....in fact never owned one. We are just a 100 miles north of Drendel country.

 

 

 

[sansenri]

On 10/11/2021 at 12:41 AM, Mysterious Mose said:

Sansenri: Bringing it to Fountain Pen Hospital might be a good way to fix this.  But, isn't this imposing on them?  Would I be expected to buy something, e.g. ink, while I'm there?  Too bad there won't be any pen shows soon.

 

 

At one point in the 30 hrs. I've had this pen, the nib and the feed separated.  It reminded me of my Santini, whose nib doesn't unscrew.  This one definitely unscrews.

 

Imposing? A customer looking for assistance, even when the problem you have does not originate from a pen you bought from their shop, is a chance of a future possible purchase! A serious shop can recognize opportunity when they see one. Best sales are based on trust. I don't think they will force you to buy anything, if not perhaps suggest a new nib... (if it cannot be fixed).

That said, a new nib, if necessary, is not a silly idea, best to have a working pen than not.

Still I'd ask what's wrong with it and then possibly inform the seller (reimbursement if a seller's fault?)

(in your shoes, I would have kept the OB, they don't make them any more!)

 

This thing that nib and feed separated, on a new F nib (new, if I understand?) sounds really odd, Pelikan nib groups (nib+ feed + collar) are very difficult to separate! and possibly you put them back together incorrectly? and that's where the problem is?

or you may have a problem with the collar, if nib and feed are not tight together the pen will not write!

[sansenri]

On 10/11/2021 at 1:06 AM, A Smug Dill said:

The M205 nibs are just polished stainless steel, and not plated or otherwise coated (e.g. by PVD) by any other metal.

I think you're right ASD, polished steel!

[sansenri]

On 10/11/2021 at 9:56 PM, Mysterious Mose said:

Here's how things stand Monday at 4:00 PM, about 50 hours after receiving the pen.

 

The pen is filled with ink.

 

It does write after I dip it in ink.  Specifically, Edelstein blue-black ink.  However, it doesn't write if I wipe Ink off the nib.  It's tricky to wipe ink off the section without wiping ink off the nib.  Messy -- ink on my fingers.

 

After that, even if I keep the cap on, it remains writeable for only 5 - 10 minutes.  After that, I have to repeat the whole dipping process all over again in order to write with the pen. I think that if I keep writing with it, it remains writeable.

 

So, my choices are a) live with it as it is, b) take it to Fountain Pen Hospital for an opinion, or c) return it.  Replacement nibs seem to cost at least $25.00.

 

Moral: When buying a vintage pen, get it with the original nib. This was my first purchase of a vintage pen.

 

you have been unlucky, I own a number of these old style M200s, they all work flawlessly and I have swapped the nibs in some of them...

If your purchase is recent, one thing I would do besides returning the pen, is first ask the seller for advice.

I think they are a reputed seller, and are likely to provide useful advice if you describe the flow problems and the fact that when you unscrewed the nib the parts fell undone... that's not normal with Pelikan nibs.

[Mysterious Mose]

I wrote to the seller describing the problem, and Waldeman Susemihl wrote back,

 

"I took the pen apart, cleaned etc.

"The nib is M200 and cannot be the problem.  Nor can the inside barrel seal be the problem.

"There can be only 2 things!

"1) I suggest on your end to please take out the feeder with nib, to check for any problems or maybe still dirt even through cleaning, on these 2 items.

"Only thing I can assume is maybe a tiny clocked up part in the feeder channel.

"2)  [Don't use Edelstein ink] use "a regular 4001 Pelikan ink which was typical at the time of manufacturing."

 

Note: I mistakenly told him I used Edelstein blue-black, it was really 4001 blue-black.

 

So, where do I look on the feeder and for what do I look?  My magnifying glass might not be strong enough.

 

I'm  not sure the nib and feeder came apart.  What I can tell, with my naked eyes, is that the feeder is not centered on the nib.  It's off to one side.  Sorry, I can't provide a picture.

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Edelstain ink is not the problem...some are middle of the road, some dry. Have something that should make the piston the slightest hit smoother.

 

The older Pelikan & the 200 nibs were designed for the dry 4001 inks, which is why it's a wet writer. Wet Waterman inks for the skinny Waterman nibs. Both designed for a meet in the middle use of dry/wet ink, and wet/dry nib matching the ink.

That is not your problem.

I don't know what it is, take it over to the shop...........as I said in the beginning.....you had a walk on water W. Germany nib you had the original seller swap out.................see if he still has it and buy it.

 

You can sell the W. Germany 200 for more money if it has a REAL W. Germany nib in it, than a Franki.....with a modern nib (post 90 nib) in it. The nib is good...........but it's not the Real Thing.

[Mysterious Mose]

What is an OB nib?  Oblique Broad?

 

If it's that valuable, I'll see if he still has it.

[sansenri]

OB yes oblique broad, somewhat similar to a stub in use, tends to add some line variation although it was not exactly designed for that purpose,

not a huge value as it’s still a steel nib, but nice and sought after as no longer made. 
some of the seller comments do not convince. If the original nib in the pen was the OB why would the feed still be dirty with ink? Unless he dismantled the nib kept the same feed and put a fine nib in, but why do that? Easier to just screw in a new nib…

I’m still convinced your best bet is let someone highly competent see the pen (a good shop). Otherwise you will not solve this easily, nor fast.

 

oh, and ‘don’t use Edelstein’ is frankly excessive, my M200s take any ink I feed them and just write regardless!

[Mysterious Mose]

23 hours ago, sansenri said:

OB yes oblique broad, somewhat similar to a stub in use, tends to add some line variation although it was not exactly designed for that purpose,

not a huge value as it’s still a steel nib, but nice and sought after as no longer made. 
some of the seller comments do not convince. If the original nib in the pen was the OB why would the feed still be dirty with ink? Unless he dismantled the nib kept the same feed and put a fine nib in, but why do that? Easier to just screw in a new nib…

I’m still convinced your best bet is let someone highly competent see the pen (a good shop). Otherwise you will not solve this easily, nor fast.

 

oh, and ‘don’t use Edelstein’ is frankly excessive, my M200s take any ink I feed them and just write regardless!

I may have found something.

 

I soaked the nib-feeder for 36 hours in water-detergent, rinsed it, let it dry and examined it.  I didn't see any dirt-residue, but that doesn't mean much since the feeder is black.

 

However, I did see what might be problems with the nib.  One, the feeder is not centered on the nib.  It is off to one side by about 1 mm.  I don't know if it is otherwise mis-aligned.  Two, there is a small gap between  the tines.  They touch at the tip, but are noticeably separated all the way to the hole.

 

I notified Wasupen.  Let's see what he says.

 

I didn't expect to find any problems, but I had to humor him and give him a chance to resolve this.

 

As to the type of ink, when I had

my M805 repaired under warranty, Abi of Chartpak via Adrienne of FPH, strongly recommended that I use ONLY Pelikan ink.  Whatever.

[Mysterious Mose]

After some more nonsense on his part, he agreed to a refund. 

 

Now I'm wondering, should I instead just offer to buy the OB nib and hope that it works?  I'm not especially keen on an OB nib, but members of the forum speak high praise of it.

[Bo Bo Olson]

'85-90/91, W.Germany nib in this case, with a 400 it would start in '82, are a slight bit more springy than the '91-97 nibs.

You do have to have both to feel it.

 

And a full W. Germany pen should be worth 15-20% more than a '90's one.......one you can't say is real....in who knows when the nib is from...is an honor problem.

Buy the OB nib even if you are not going to use it. You will have a Real W.Germany pen to sell if the day comes.

 

Reality the only oblique worth buying if this was not putting the pen back in original order, is a '50-65 era semi-flex.

I have  the grand Vintage Oblique nibs.....and somehow in spite of 'knowing better'  ended up with 'lots' of obliques in semi-vintage nibs.....not the real thing.

I have a gold OBB in a small 600, a gold OM in a W.Germany 800. In steel a 200 W.Germany NOS OB,  & a W.Germany 200 in M.

 

I went for years with out running into a W.Germany Pelikan.

7 or so years ago I saw a W.Germany 400, and the passed Piembi (our onetime Pelikan expert), said I was spoiled with semi-flex don't pay 30/40% more for it.

Three years ago I got the W.Germany 600, last year the W.Germany 200 in M, this year the NOS OB and the 800 OM.

 

They are not rare, but scarce, and if I buy a W.Germany 200 or any of them, I'd expect a slightly springier W.Germany nib on it...or I can buy a '91-97 cheaper. It too has a nice nib, but the difference is one is slightly better.

 

Well if you sell it with a semi-flex '50-65 nib on it, no one's going to complain it's not a W. Germany nib....less the fella's a fool. There is good and there is Best!

 

[Mysterious Mose]

41 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

'85-90/91, W.Germany nib in this case, with a 400 it would start in '82, are a slight bit more springy than the '91-97 nibs.

You do have to have both to feel it.

 

And a full W. Germany pen should be worth 15-20% more than a '90's one.......one you can't say is real....in who knows when the nib is from...is an honor problem.

Buy the OB nib even if you are not going to use it. You will have a Real W.Germany pen to sell if the day comes.

 

Reality the only oblique worth buying if this was not putting the pen back in original order, is a '50-65 era semi-flex.

I have  the grand Vintage Oblique nibs.....and somehow in spite of 'knowing better'  ended up with 'lots' of obliques in semi-vintage nibs.....not the real thing.

I have a gold OBB in a small 600, a gold OM in a W.Germany 800. In steel a 200 W.Germany NOS OB,  & a W.Germany 200 in M.

 

I went for years with out running into a W.Germany Pelikan.

7 or so years ago I saw a W.Germany 400, and the passed Piembi (our onetime Pelikan expert), said I was spoiled with semi-flex don't pay 30/40% more for it.

Three years ago I got the W.Germany 600, last year the W.Germany 200 in M, this year the NOS OB and the 800 OM.

 

They are not rare, but scarce, and if I buy a W.Germany 200 or any of them, I'd expect a slightly springier W.Germany nib on it...or I can buy a '91-97 cheaper. It too has a nice nib, but the difference is one is slightly better.

 

Well if you sell it with a semi-flex '50-65 nib on it, no one's going to complain it's not a W. Germany nib....less the fella's a fool. There is good and there is Best!

 

Maybe you can explain this.  This pen, with the OB nib, was listed as a $49.99 auction.  I was the only bidder.  Why wasn't there more interest in such a real W. German pen?

 

As it stands now, Waldemar Susemihl has suggested that I adjust the nib-feeder so that the feeder touches the nib breathing hole.  How do I make that adjustment?  Is there a teaching video?

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Ignorance is wide, and the steel/gold plated 200 is not a gold nibbed 400/600/800, so it don't get the snob play.

 

You are noobie......

.....back then some 13 years ago, semi-flex were rare in the States (still is a bit) and few had old German pens...over the decade more got them....With me ranting and raving about semi-flex...and my discovered maxi-semi-flex and so on.

 

There was no great rush to get either of semi/maxi-semi-flex....even with exact directions pre-google translating, of what was what and how to buy on German Ebay....too much out of the ordinary. And in German!!!!

 

There was a time back then when one could get a Geha 790 semi-flex for E 12-15-19. When a vintage Pelikan semi-flex 400 cost E-60.

Now cost E-100 except if you want to pay $285 or more in a Buy Now Idiot ebay sale. Professionals put in Stateside prices here in Germany in who knows what sort of fool will pay twice as much with no fun of Hunting....No Waiting. Here Idiot, Idiot, here nice little idiot, with more money than sense. 

Hunting is fun even if you lose sooner or later you get your pen at a fair price and waste money on ink and paper.

 

IMO now...

Part why semi-flex is not all that big in the States from what I think....was everyone had the impression one did calligraphy with that semi-flex nib spreading the tines wide and drawing the letters, slow writing.

I didn't know that...wasn't until last year I discovered what sort of Nib Abuse everyone was expecting to do with semi-flex...so they stayed away from semi-flex.

While I just scribbled merrily along getting that old fashioned fountain pen script with out doing anything at all.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

I too was ignorant...all of us were/are still on many things.

I'd hung out here for a couple of years before I heard of the Fabled W.German nibs.

The passed Piembi, our then Pelikan expert told me when I was looking at getting a W.Germany 400; not to, in I was spoiled by having 3-4  or more semi-flex nibs.

It's true.

I'd had to pay @ 30% more to win one...E-130 instead of E100.

 

And I was still a gold snob, so didn't take the 200 seriously....now have a 215, two W.Germany ones, a '90's and 5 or so new ones.

The steel nibs of a 200 = the '82-97 semi-vintage gold nibs....

..there are steel nibs that are semi&maxi-semi-flex that are as good as the gold. Osmia.

 

So do take the Gold Myth with a pot of salt.

Soft Gold Nail....is not. Someone is comparing a steel nail with a semi-nail gold nib. A nail is a nail, be it gold or steel.  There is not soft nail....much less a gold one.

 

The Pelikan 200's nib is and was one of the best regular flex nibs. Some say the Japanese 'soft' nibs are mushy. The 200's nib is not mushy.

 

Back to the chase.

 

And one has to have both to feel the slight difference of springiness. There is that slight difference.

If I just take a W.Germany nibbed pen in my hand and write with it...I'm not going to feel much of anything different. I take a similar '90-97 Germany nib and do back to back...yep a tiny bit better is the W.Germany nib.

 

Some folks do single malts, one can taste the difference between 12 and 15 year old...with experience....with out it one tastes the difference between 12 & 18 year old.

[Mysterious Mose]

On 10/12/2021 at 6:00 PM, sansenri said:

 

Imposing? A customer looking for assistance, even when the problem you have does not originate from a pen you bought from their shop, is a chance of a future possible purchase! A serious shop can recognize opportunity when they see one. Best sales are based on trust. I don't think they will force you to buy anything, if not perhaps suggest a new nib... (if it cannot be fixed).

That said, a new nib, if necessary, is not a silly idea, best to have a working pen than not.

Still I'd ask what's wrong with it and then possibly inform the seller (reimbursement if a seller's fault?)

(in your shoes, I would have kept the OB, they don't make them any more!)

 

This thing that nib and feed separated, on a new F nib (new, if I understand?) sounds really odd, Pelikan nib groups (nib+ feed + collar) are very difficult to separate! and possibly you put them back together incorrectly? and that's where the problem is?

or you may have a problem with the collar, if nib and feed are not tight together the pen will not write!

Waldemar, the seller, suggests that the feeder is in the wrong place on the nib. Now I understand, a little bit, how they work together.  The beginning of the feeder is below the nib hole and the gap between the tines.  There is no way for the nib to receive ink from the feeder!

 

He asks me, "Did you take the feeder and the nib apart yet???????"

 

I know how to take the feeder- nib combination out of the section, but not how to separate them.  I didn't know they could be separated, and Sansenri didn't either.

 

Any ideas on how to adjust the position of the feeder with respect to the nib?  I've looked at a few YouTube  videos but they only demonstrate doing it with nibs and feeders that slide in and out of the section, such as Conklin (and Santini).  You pull them out and they separate.  But, what about nibs and feeders that unscrew, such as Pelikans?

 

I asked the seller, but all he said was Google it.

 

 

 

 

[Mysterious Mose]

2 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Some folks do single malts, one can taste the difference between 12 and 15 year old...with experience....with out it one tastes the difference between 12 & 18 year old.

I can tell the difference between single malt and blended Scotch, but don't think I can distinguish between 12 and 15 year, or even 12 and 18 year.  My wallet can!

 

I remember, about 25 years ago in a restaurant, getting a Macallan sampler.  You got a couple of different years to compare.  I don't remember my impressions other than Macallan wasn't my favorite.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I have lucked out a couple of Christmases in a row....a couple years ago, and got a Glenfiddich set 12, 15 &18 year old with a booklet telling me what each tastes like.

Even my wife who don't like Scotch could tell the difference.

 

I've 4 or so various single malts....other than that. Come Christmas over here in Germany they have booze sales.

 

I got my Johnny Walker collection, missing the Green, have blue, black and the vastly underrated red**, and the mix with 7 up or Coke blond. (Don't know what to think of about that...a scotch so mild it can be mixed like that), but with 7-Up it tastes good.)

 

** Way back in the dark ages of the '70's Johnny Walker Red won a Consumer Reports blind tasting contest. So should be looked at with  unprejudicied eyes....

 

The drinking world has changed so much since then....with small lot aged offerings for alligator wallets.

When I was young, Old Crow was good bourbon, not mix with Coke only. Back when booze was still allowed to advertise, Ol'Crow was more advertised than Beam.

Old Grandad was better in the 100 proof bottles.

 

I'm not quite a snob....not quite, I quite like 18 year  or older blended scotches. Old Grouse or Teachers is quite good in 18 year old bottles. Wish I had been a bit wiser and got the somewhat older bottles; but some times one cheaps out in all the wrong times.

 

A generation ago, and over a four year span, I've had two of those nice ceramic small bottles of Chevis Crown Royal, where the youngest scotch in it is 21 years old. Something you might give your mother a shot of on her birthday, but not share with your twin brother.

[sansenri]

On 10/15/2021 at 3:06 AM, Mysterious Mose said:

Waldemar, the seller, suggests that the feeder is in the wrong place on the nib. Now I understand, a little bit, how they work together.  The beginning of the feeder is below the nib hole and the gap between the tines.  There is no way for the nib to receive ink from the feeder!

 

He asks me, "Did you take the feeder and the nib apart yet???????"

 

I know how to take the feeder- nib combination out of the section, but not how to separate them.  I didn't know they could be separated, and Sansenri didn't either.

 

Any ideas on how to adjust the position of the feeder with respect to the nib?  I've looked at a few YouTube  videos but they only demonstrate doing it with nibs and feeders that slide in and out of the section, such as Conklin (and Santini).  You pull them out and they separate.  But, what about nibs and feeders that unscrew, such as Pelikans?

 

I asked the seller, but all he said was Google it.

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't say I don't know that nib and feed can be separated... they can in most pens...

I just said in Pelikan pens it's not as easy as in other pens.

In some pens you just hold the pen with one hand and the nib and feed with the other and pull, nib and feed come out, the collar which keeps them together remains inside the pen, so the nib and feed come apart...

In Pelikan pens that is not so easy as they are usually held by the collar very tightly, best to take the nib group out of the pen by unscrewing it from the section, and then separating nib and feed using a nib knock out block (That you do need to google...)
But seeing your knowledge of these pens seems to be scarce, before venturing into DIY, to avoid further trouble, I would ask assistance in a shop.

As I have mentioned in an earlier post if it has happened to you that nib and feed have separated and you don't actually know how it happened, they you may have an issue with the collar, unless you really applied brute force to pull them out...

That's why I repeat I think you need competent assistance, to understand where your problem is.

Without any photos, and without being able to directly take a look at the pen it's a bit hard to be of help...

 

oh, and btw, again the seller's comment feels not nice, why would a customer who has just bought a pen that is supposed to be in good writing order need to dismantle the nib group? this means leaving you with the problem...

(but as I said, get into that shop asap!)

 

[sansenri]

some references

 

https://thepelikansperch.com/2014/09/27/the-evolution-of-the-collar-feed-nib/

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/334772-pelikan-m100-nib-disassembly/

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/281530-pelikan-m800-nib-unit/

 

https://flexandotherfollies.wordpress.com/2017/12/01/pelikan-nib-swapping-a-primer/

 

https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Nibs/Nib-units-since-1929/index.html

 

https://thepelikansperch.com/2014/10/03/polystyrene-what-is-it-good-for/

[sansenri]

one more thing

"Sorry, but I can't provide any pictures."

why not?

"you can't" meaning you don't know how to post pictures in the forum or which other reasons?

 

 

(cell phones take good pictures nowadays, the very quick way, in emergency, although the regular approach should be to create an image album, is take a picture, and just copy and paste it in the post! - don't do this regularly as the space dedicated to each member to do that is limited...)