Ink storage for 1 liter Pelikan bottle

[A Smug Dill]

8 hours ago, RJS said:

Wow! That's some serious evaporation!

 

Last year, I tossed out most of the international standard (short) ink cartridges that came supplied with European pens I bought before 2005. They were all bone dry.

 

Every last one of the Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black cartridges I bought in early 2013 are roughly half dried out. Whereas the Sailor black ink cartridges I got supplied with pens around the same time were fine, when I checked this time last year. (I have since given them away, though, so can't photograph them now.)

[A Smug Dill]

8 minutes ago, IanP2303 said:

Is Pelikan ink cheap and bad?

 

Actually, I consider Pelikan 4001 Blau-Schwarz (which, as I understand, is not so readily available through authorised Pelikan retailers in the US) and Brillant-Schwarz (of which I have a one-litre bottle, and then some) to be cheap and good.

 

Although Pelikan 4001 Brillant-Schwarz is not the most water-resistant among black inks, it smells like sumi ink which recalls to my unconscious mind all the times I had to learn and practise brush calligraphy as a schoolboy. Funny, I hated it back then, but now — especially because I'm not using a brush, and I'm ‘writing’ with attention to form and aesthetics on my own volition — it makes me quite fond of that smell in a black ink. Sailor even made a Nagasawa Stationery Center store-exclusive black ink called 墨香 (bokkou), of which the smell of sumi ink is its selling point. (I have a bottle of that, but I haven't cracked it open yet.) It's not exactly cheap, though. Whereas Pelikan 4001 Brillant-Schwarz is very cheap per millilitre if you can get it by the litre. After I tried a small bottle of it, I liked it enough to order a one-litre bottle from Amazon US (shipped to Australia), for the princely sum of A$55 (about US$40). It arrived slightly leaked, with the label and exterior of the bottle stained, but the bottle still retained ≥98% of the ink. I complained (again!) bitterly about the careless packaging of liquids for international delivery — when about half of my (a dozen or so) orders of bottles of ink and other liquids from Amazon US arrive leaky or wrecked —  and Amazon just refunded me and told me to keep or dispose of the ink as I wish.

 

Anyway, the point I was trying to make to the O.P. was that if an ink was discontinued, and/or relatively expensive per millilitre to acquire, there may be good reason to fret about preserving every last drop and not want it to be lost, over the course of four to six years. On the other hand, if the ink in question is most likely still going to be available in the market as a current in-production retail item, then fretting about it and going to unusual or inconvenient lengths to stop loss is silly. I love scoring a bargain at least as much as the next retail consumer; but once I secured myself a great deal, whether I then ‘waste’ the spoils by being somewhat lax and careless in its storage and handling doesn't worry me much; that's a big part of why I spent time hunting bargains in the first place, so that I can be careless and wasteful whimsically without worrying about it, aside from feeling like I was a ‘smart’ or ‘astute’ shopper at the time of the transactions.

[IanP2303]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Actually, I consider Pelikan 4001 Blau-Schwarz (which, as I understand, is not so readily available through authorised Pelikan retailers in the US) and Brillant-Schwarz (of which I have a one-litre bottle, and then some) to be cheap and good.

 

Although Pelikan 4001 Brillant-Schwarz is not the most water-resistant among black inks, it smells like sumi ink which recalls to my unconscious mind all the times I had to learn and practise brush calligraphy as a schoolboy. Funny, I hated it back then, but now — especially because I'm not using a brush, and I'm ‘writing’ with attention to form and aesthetics on my own volition — it makes me quite fond of that smell in a black ink. Sailor even made a Nagasawa Stationery Center store-exclusive black ink called 墨香 (bokkou), of which the smell of sumi ink is its selling point. (I have a bottle of that, but I haven't cracked it open yet.) It's not exactly cheap, though. Whereas Pelikan 4001 Brillant-Schwarz is very cheap per millilitre if you can get it by the litre. After I tried a small bottle of it, I liked it enough to order a one-litre bottle from Amazon US (shipped to Australia), for the princely sum of A$55 (about US$40). It arrived slightly leaked, with the label and exterior of the bottle stained, but the bottle still retained ≥98% of the ink. I complained (again!) bitterly about the careless packaging of liquids for international delivery — when about half of my (a dozen or so) orders of bottles of ink and other liquids from Amazon US arrive leaky or wrecked —  and Amazon just refunded me and told me to keep or dispose of the ink as I wish.

 

Anyway, the point I was trying to make to the O.P. was that if an ink was discontinued, and/or relatively expensive per millilitre to acquire, there may be good reason to fret about preserving every last drop and not want it to be lost, over the course of four to six years. On the other hand, if the ink in question is most likely still going to be available in the market as a current in-production retail item, then fretting about it and going to unusual or inconvenient lengths to stop loss is silly. I love scoring a bargain at least as much as the next retail consumer; but once I secured myself a great deal, whether I then ‘waste’ the spoils by being somewhat lax and careless in its storage and handling doesn't worry me much; that's a big part of why I spent time hunting bargains in the first place, so that I can be careless and wasteful whimsically without worrying about it, aside from feeling like I was a ‘smart’ or ‘astute’ shopper at the time of the transactions.

Pelikan ink is relatively cheap and good in my opinion, and it is awesome for a starter like me. I chose the Pelikan 4001 royal blue as my first bottle of ink and it is quite good, though there might be a difference regarding the type of paper you’re using, but it is a good bottle of ink and I like it. Though I have been wondering whether I should buy a bottle of Brilliant Black ink for my other fountain pen. Thoughts?

[RJS]

5 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Last year, I tossed out most of the international standard (short) ink cartridges that came supplied with European pens I bought before 2005. They were all bone dry.

 

Every last one of the Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black cartridges I bought in early 2013 are roughly half dried out. Whereas the Sailor black ink cartridges I got supplied with pens around the same time were fine, when I checked this time last year. (I have since given them away, though, so can't photograph them now.)

Wow, these companies really need to improve their cartridge plastic! Seems I was just lucky with my old Parker and Pilot carts.

[JulieParadise]

On 10/11/2021 at 2:11 PM, RJS said:

Wow, these companies really need to improve their cartridge plastic! Seems I was just lucky with my old Parker and Pilot carts.

 

Well, maybe they don't, as cartridges are not supposed to last forever or be an ideal way to store ink. These are meant to be consumables.

[RJS]

2 hours ago, JulieParadise said:

 

Well, maybe they don't, as cartridges are not supposed to last forever or be an ideal way to store ink. These are meant to be consumables.

True. Let's say Pilot and Parker used to over-engineer their carts. Running dry in under a decade seems a bit much, though.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, RJS said:

Running dry in under a decade seems a bit much, though.

 

Even the shelf life, if and where the manufacturer has stated it or otherwise made a recommendation in that regard, for bottled inks is no more than five years, and more commonly in the three-year range.

 

Pelikan:

Quote

We recommend you the following:

• Do not buy ink in too large amounts and use it up within 12 to 18 months.

(although grammatically it seems to be a recommendation against using the ink up within 12 to 18 months subsequent to buying a large amount)

 

Sailor:

Quote

インクの使用期限について

カートリッジインクは製造日から約2年を、ボトルインクは約3年を目安にお使いいただくことをおすすめいたします。

(Approximately 2 years from the date of manufacture for ink cartridiges; approximately 3 years for bottled ink.)

 

Hero:

 

[RJS]

Using a giant bottle in a year would be a challenge for an individual!

 

I made my "running dry in a decade comment" not because I think cartridges should last that long, but because it implies that, for example, after only 2 1/2 years already a quarter  of the ink will have vanished. You can reasonably expect a product like ink to potentially sit on a shelf for a year before it's sold, for starters.

 

Plus, why use a plastic so much worse than is available?!?

[A Smug Dill]

5 hours ago, RJS said:

Using a giant bottle in a year would be a challenge for an individual!

 

Thus the very idea that the bottle size one acquires ‘should’ match the expected consumption rate, never mind the supposed cost savings of buying (consumables, notwithstanding that ink is arguably non-perishable compared to foodstuffs, etc.) in bulk — says the guy who snapped up 17 bottles of Pelikan Edelstein Smoky Quartz and 8 bottles of Robert Oster Sydney Lavender when they were offered at effectively ≤25% of the Australian retail prices.

 

A one-litre bottle would be suitable for an individual user who uses a lot of ink, or to support an office or classroom with multiple users. A three-litre bottle of milk does not have three times the shelf life as a one-litre bottle of milk from the same manufacturer, and a 10kg sack of rice would not be specially packed or treated to keep longer under the same storage conditions than a 500g pack of rice of the same brand and type; so there is no reason why a ‘giant bottle’ of a particular ink ought to keep better than a 50ml bottle, especially if the manufacturer's guidance is that the product is ‘best before’ three years have elapsed from the date of production.

 

I have a 100g tube of Molykote 111 compound here, with a nominal shelf life of approximately five years from the date of production. At the rate I'm using silicone grease (only in fountain pens), I'd struggle to have consumed 1% of that before the end of that period.

 

6 hours ago, RJS said:

I made my "running dry in a decade comment" not because I think cartridges should last that long, but because it implies that, for example, after only 2 1/2 years already a quarter  of the ink will have vanished.

 

I don't agree with your reasoning, sorry.

 

If the manufacturer's (e.g. Sailor's) guidance is that ink cartridges should be used within two years from the date of production, it could be that the ink could start to change physically or chemically, or run a higher risk of biological growth in spite of preservatives and biocides, after that period. Or perhaps the plastic could start to degrade and allow an accelerating rate of evaporation. Whatever causes the ink to go bad or be lost, it doesn't have to be on a linear trajectory.

 

6 hours ago, RJS said:

You can reasonably expect a product like ink to potentially sit on a shelf for a year before it's sold, for starters.

 

Responsible manufacturers label (or print onto the individual consumable unit of) their retail products with either the date of manufacture or the best-before date, where a finite shelf life applies.

 

6 hours ago, RJS said:

Plus, why use a plastic so much worse than is available?!?

 

Sorry, but at the crux of that is a point of philosophical contention that I, as a consumer, strongly disagree with a lot of other consumers who like to whinge on public discussion forums, etc.

 

There is no business sense in making products far exceeding reasonable ‘minimum’ requirements from the consumers' and users' perspective, unless the ‘bargain’ or deal is that they are going to knowingly and willingly pay disproportionately more for the incremental gain in product quality or longevity. As a (former) software programmer, process designer and enterprise architect, I put things together to consistently meet stated (design, functional, qualitative, technical, and/or regulatory) requirements, but not what is ‘best’ possible out of what (products, materials, technology and knowledge) is available at the time from the end-users' perspective.

 

As consumers, we need to be pushed — by entities, e.g. companies, that are by nature not like us — to keep ‘consuming’ (through either meaningful utilisation, pointless hoarding, careless waste, or incidental or inadvertent loss) and spending, lest we allow our other (budgetary, lifestyle, environmental and ‘sustainability’) concerns constrain our material consumption and monetary expenditure, and step back from our role in a capitalistic society and world. Somebody needs to keep us honest.

 

We don't ‘deserve’ better products well above what will do the job and meet our short-term needs, if we aren't prepared to pay more on an average spend per year (or whatever measurement period) basis. 

[RJS]

We'll agree to disagree about about the 100% evaporation over 10 years being acceptable, Dil. You're welcome to your opinion.

 

I stand by the idea that 1litre is too much for one individual to use in a year in any circumstances- that's a phenomenal amount of ink. It's intended for a school or office.

 

And yes, I grasp the concept of companies making something like the plastic in cartridges DELIBERATELY bad so that evaporation occurs, causing customers to buy again. It's liked planned obsolescence in phones, or where laptops have their RAM and flash memory spitefully soldered to the main board for no reason other that that if one item goes wrong the whole lot is f*cked and the customer must buy a new device.

 

Lastly, I think cartridges should last for a good few years. Why not? McDonalds is consumable too, but customers would be peeved if they only had a 5 minute window to eat it before it decomposed, having become accustomed to having a more reasonable length of time in which to consume it.

 

Essentially, let's agree to disagree about every single point of contention on this page. 😁👍

[inkstainedruth]

On 10/9/2021 at 12:14 PM, dhanks said:

 

If it's that big of a concern for you, buy it in smaller bottles and save yourself the anguish.

 

Rumpole

Or do what I did with an 8 oz bottle of vintage Quink Permanent Violet and a 3/4 full pint bottle of vintage Skrip Peacock.  I went online and priced out glass bottles in a couple of different sizes (two oz. and four oz.) I bought what are called Boston Rounds (think the 4 oz. glass Noodler's bottles, if you're at all familiar with those). I spent a little more and got amber glass, and ordered them with eyedropper tops. I shopped around a bit to figure out what I needed and what would be most cost effective for me, including shipping.  Then, when I had the time (and my husband to provide an extra set of hands) I transferred the ink to the smaller bottles (partly pouring and partly using a cheap plastic turkey baster bought specifically for that purpose.  We transferred the ink over the plastic tub I use for dumping liquids into after flushing pens out.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[james3paris]

22 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

Or do what I did with an 8 oz bottle of vintage Quink Permanent Violet and a 3/4 full pint bottle of vintage Skrip Peacock.  I went online and priced out glass bottles in a couple of different sizes (two oz. and four oz.) I bought what are called Boston Rounds (think the 4 oz. glass Noodler's bottles, if you're at all familiar with those). I spent a little more and got amber glass, and ordered them with eyedropper tops. I shopped around a bit to figure out what I needed and what would be most cost effective for me, including shipping.  Then, when I had the time (and my husband to provide an extra set of hands) I transferred the ink to the smaller bottles (partly pouring and partly using a cheap plastic turkey baster bought specifically for that purpose.  We transferred the ink over the plastic tub I use for dumping liquids into after flushing pens out.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

+1  That's pretty much how I did it.   TY

[RJS]

2 minutes ago, james3paris said:

+1  That's pretty much how I did it.   TY

Out of curiosity, what did you want this giant bottle for?

[james3paris]

13 minutes ago, RJS said:

Out of curiosity, what did you want this giant bottle for?

My Pelikan pens like to drink a lot of ink.  🙂.... Impulse buy...I saw it for just under $54 USD and just got it.  

[RJS]

21 minutes ago, james3paris said:

My Pelikan pens like to drink a lot of ink.  🙂.... Impulse buy...I saw it for just under $54 USD and just got it.  

You'll have to let us know how much you have left in 5 or 6 year's time!