M800 Red/Bourdeaux purchase advice/recommendations.

[Tokei-ski]

Hello,

 

I was hoping I could get some advice concerning a purchase I am considering. I want to pick up a Pelikan M800 Red Stripe or "Bourdeaux" fountain pen. I am aware that this pen was discontinued, and I am also aware of the current struggles of Pelikan. I am agnostic to the nib, as this can easily be swapped out if I so desire. I am buying the pen to ink and use as often as possible in rotation, so a "dead stock" or perfect pen are not necessary. Here are my questions:

 

a) Is there any difference in value between a "Two chicks" cap versus a "Single chick" cap? To me this means nothing, but I want to make sure I do not pay an unnecessary premium for something that I do not place any additional value on.

 

b) What would be a reasonable price to pay for a used pen, either with, or without box and papers?

 

These seem to have disappeared from the market, and I only see a single pen on Ebay, at the eye watering price of $1,999! 😲 I was hoping (dreaming?) that I would be able to grab one of these in the $500~$600 range, but maybe I have missed the boat? Have prices moved that quickly?

 

I appreciate any thoughts and advice those more in tune with the market might be able to offer me. If the market really has moved up that much, I guess I will need to make do with something else at a more reasonable price point for me.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Kind regards

[azur3s0ng]

3 hours ago, Tokei-ski said:

a) Is there any difference in value between a "Two chicks" cap versus a "Single chick" cap? To me this means nothing, but I want to make sure I do not pay an unnecessary premium for something that I do not place any additional value on.

The cap? Unless you are asking for the nibs, I don't believe the cap matters. According to https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Models/Souveraen-Series/M800-Basis/index.html, the M800 Red was produced from 2001 to 2012. So you won't get a 14c nib (early 80s) from the red variant. The only difference I would say early models have sharper tipping and later are more ball-shaped.

 

However, I've seen people posting the duo jewelry patches (cap top and piston nob) version, but it's super rare.

 

3 hours ago, Tokei-ski said:

b) What would be a reasonable price to pay for a used pen, either with, or without box and papers?

 

M800 Red price is unreasonably priced in the used market IMHO, it's not a special nor limited edition either. If you really want it, maybe set an alert for eBay auction, any final price below $1000 I would say it is "reasonable". 

[Tokei-ski]

Thank you for the response. I was talking about the cap as per the 3rd and 4th caps below, with two versus one chick. The two chick cap was only made until 2003, and the one chick cap from 2003 onward, so the two chick variant is significantly rarer than the one chick. I am just not sure if this commands any premium in the market or not.

 

As I mentioned, the nib does not matter at all, as I can swap that out with any number of spares that I have available. 

 

Regards

 

 

 

[azur3s0ng]

Like you said, double chick M800 red was only produced from 2001 to 2003, so it is rare, that definitely adds extra value. Since you mentioned you'll use it as a  rotation pen instead of collecting, I would get whatever available in a good shape with reasonable price.

[Calabria]

I think that most eBay sellers are out of their minds. Pelikan prices are unreasonably

high - they’re not that rare.

 

I would probably start watching this auction house https://www.martiniauctions.com/

 

Does anybody else have any suggestions?

 

I would also probably send an inquiry to Rolf at https://en.missing-pen.com/

[Mercian]

23 minutes ago, Calabria said:

I think that most eBay sellers are out of their minds. Pelikan prices are unreasonably

high - they’re not that rare.

To be fair, it isn’t the sellers who are out of their minds - they are only trying to get as much money as they can.

As long as buyers keep paying the prices that the sellers are currently demanding, the prices will remain that high. 

 

I am in a similar bind myself, in that I would really like to buy a M800 in Brown Tortoiseshell (the LE in 2013).

The prices for those M800s are in the same - stratospheric - range as the prices for the Red striped M800s 🙁

 

Both pens are now out of production. As such, ‘supply’ is extremely limited.
It seems to me that @Tokei-ski and I are both just going to have to keep on looking, and waiting patiently, until such time as a pen comes up for sale at a price that is acceptable to us.
Or until we win the lottery 🤷‍♂️

[azur3s0ng]

2 hours ago, Mercian said:

To be fair, it isn’t the sellers who are out of their minds - they are only trying to get as much money as they can.

As long as buyers keep paying the prices that the sellers are currently demanding, the prices will remain that high. 

So true. Another good example is the M805 Ocean Swirl. It's the buyers kept paying for the extra and it's rare to find a used one for less than $1000 nowadays.

[Lam1]

The two-chicks nibs do carry a little premium over the one chick ones. They are, IMO, worth the little premium. 

 

As for box and papers, Pelikan boxes are pretty simple, so they shouldn't carry too much of a premium.

 

To get a M800 Red in the $500-600 range will take a bit of patience and luck, but it can happen. It took me a few years looking to get mine in that range (but that was two years ago).

 

Keep an eye on eBay and the buy and sell forums on Facebook and be patient.

Good luck!

[Tokei-ski]

Thank you everyone for the opinions and ideas. I guess the simple and condensed answer is that supply has become very limited, and prices have pushed pretty high at the moment. Given what is going on with the company, and the discontinued nature of the pen, I might guess that prices will only continue to rise going forward.

 

From my perspective, I am just looking to add another colour M800 to my flock, and at prices close to $1,000, it does not make sense for me.  That is Namiki Yukari Royale Urushi territory, and for me, there is no comparison. I love Pelikans, especially the M800 and M1000 series (I own 8 combined), but only at a certain price point ($300~$600) beyond which there is a lot of competition, where the quality vs. value steps up a notch.

 

I will keep my eyes open on the usual websites and auctions, and see if something happens to come my way; if not, there is always another pen just around the corner!

 

Kind regards

[Bo Bo Olson]

Look regularly, like once a week,  in German Ebay, and English Ebay; someone might be selling it  as a normal user and not as a professional 'Looking for an Idiot' safari hunter.

 

 

Obviously you want a rare pen.........having enough run of the mill 800's.

I'd like a Grand Place, 600....but that was too expensive for  me new, and the price only grew.

Have you an W.Germany 800 with that then thinner than the 400/600 nib width that was special for the then '87-97 era.

 

The W.Germany  nib is a tad more springy than the Germany era ('90/91) ending in 1997...not the nail of post '97 era. Which I don't  believe is the old narrower than the pre'98 400/600 size.

 

I don't know what the '87 has, but the '88-89, has a gold disk with two Pelikan chicks.

The W.Germany 600 is green imprint  with two chicks.

The W.Germany 200 is gold imprint with two chicks.

 

I just noticed your collection of 800's caps,  green & gold imprints and two disks. So when each came in I don't know, but mine gold disk** is '88-89.

** Mine is a black and gold pen, that could have to do with the gold disk instead of a green or gold imprint.

 

I don't even know when Pelikan went over to one chick...2003.

 

[Calabria]

19 hours ago, Tokei-ski said:

Thank you everyone for the opinions and ideas. I guess the simple and condensed answer is that supply has become very limited, and prices have pushed pretty high at the moment. Given what is going on with the company, and the discontinued nature of the pen, I might guess that prices will only continue to rise going forward.

 

From my perspective, I am just looking to add another colour M800 to my flock, and at prices close to $1,000, it does not make sense for me.  That is Namiki Yukari Royale Urushi territory, and for me, there is no comparison. I love Pelikans, especially the M800 and M1000 series (I own 8 combined), but only at a certain price point ($300~$600) beyond which there is a lot of competition, where the quality vs. value steps up a notch.

 

I will keep my eyes open on the usual websites and auctions, and see if something happens to come my way; if not, there is always another pen just around the corner!

 

Kind regards

That is a sound opinion. I agree totally.

 

I do have the red with a two chick nib which I picked up at a store in Rome. That was a while ago, maybe 2016, for 400Euro which seemed about right.

[gyasko]

22 hours ago, Lam1 said:

The two-chicks nibs do carry a little premium over the one chick ones. They are, IMO, worth the little premium. 

 

I haven’t tried a one chick nib because i was unimpressed with the two chick nibs.  All the magical marks like PF and EIN made no appreciable difference in writing experience either. The 14k m800 nibs were slightly better but there are more easily obtained modern nibs i prefer, to say nothing of vintage nibs.  

[Bo Bo Olson]

Gyasko,

A nails a nail....IMO so one (after 2002) or two chicks after '97 wouldn't matter. That was the year the 800 went from regular flex to nail.....the 400/600 from regular flex to semi-nail.

Also the year the fat and blobby nibs came in...and the 800 I assume lost it's very own narrower than the 400/600 width standard.

It once had a narrower width standard between the 400/600 and Waterman.

(The chart is old, listing no Japanese pens, which became popular in the very late '90's-early 2000's. ) In fact 13 years ago, there were big flame wars, the narrow nib folks swearing for the narrow Waterman nibs over the change your nib gang of Pelikan fans..................with no mention of the even narrower Japanese nibs. And Pelikan's EF was the narrowest of all, not just the 800's. Parker was fatter than Sheaffer, fatter than Pelikan.....thinnest was Waterman......how times changed in '98.)

 

(Outside the 1000 going from Bock's semi-flex, to Pelikan regular flex there was no difference between Bock and Pelikans' nibs, in Bock made the fat and blobby nibs exactly to Pelikan's spec's. Semi-nail in the 400/600, nail in the 800.)

 

But one has 2 chicks, with the two version's of regular flex, W.Germany and Germany before '98.

So one can be impressed by a springy regular flex nib over the modern nail....and if so, then go W.Germany.

 

 

[Kalessin]

By the way... the captop logo number of chicks does not always match the nib logo number of chicks.  Pelikan brought the new logo in when the new parts became available, and the transition lasted for a while until the old parts were all used up.

 

I have a M620 Berlin FP (2002) and the matching ballpoint.  I purchased the FP new and then the BP some years later in the used market.  The Berlin's captop has the single-chick logo, the original nib has the two-chick engraving, and the ballpoint has the two-chick captop logo.

 

I have never found any difference between single-chick and two-chick nibs.

 

I just took a look around at used-market prices on some of the less common Pelikan colors and models.  Crazy!

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

'98-2002 for nail two chick nibs.....2003 to now for newer but similar nail nibs.

 

The things one don't catch...difference betwen nib chcik count and cap....never even thought of looking; but all my Pelikand but my 605 are two chick pens.

 

But one could have gotten a nib swap somewhere along the line even if new....they have to do something with still new enough nibs that got swapped out like an EF for an M, or what ever. So one could end up with a slightly older double chick nib on a single nib pen.

Whistle in the dark, then look.

 

My Galeria Kaufhaus Pelikan 605 did have an official nib swap of a M for a BB. I've no idea how many chicks was on the original nib, but there were two on the wider fatter swapped nib. One on the cap.

 

The 605 didn't sell well, didn't sell well as an export model...either.

 

So was sold at a discount at Galeria Kaufhaus for E-99 @ 11 years ago. I 'knew' I'd be going stub or CI on that nib so swapped it in for a BB so the nib was big enough for whatever I had done to the nib.

So the 605 had been around as NOS for a while before I got it.  How long that 2 chick nib had been there I don't know. Quite possible a while in BB might not have been very popular in Germany or in America at that time; and sat in the factory bin for quit awhile.

[gyasko]

On 9/22/2021 at 8:16 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Gyasko,

A nails a nail....IMO so one (after 2002) or two chicks after '97 wouldn't matter. That was the year the 800 went from regular flex to nail.....the 400/600 from regular flex to semi-nail.

Also the year the fat and blobby nibs came in...and the 800 I assume lost it's very own narrower than the 400/600 width standard.

It once had a narrower width standard between the 400/600 and Waterman.

(The chart is old, listing no Japanese pens, which became popular in the very late '90's-early 2000's. ) In fact 13 years ago, there were big flame wars, the narrow nib folks swearing for the narrow Waterman nibs over the change your nib gang of Pelikan fans..................with no mention of the even narrower Japanese nibs. And Pelikan's EF was the narrowest of all, not just the 800's. Parker was fatter than Sheaffer, fatter than Pelikan.....thinnest was Waterman......how times changed in '98.)

 

(Outside the 1000 going from Bock's semi-flex, to Pelikan regular flex there was no difference between Bock and Pelikans' nibs, in Bock made the fat and blobby nibs exactly to Pelikan's spec's. Semi-nail in the 400/600, nail in the 800.)

 

But one has 2 chicks, with the two version's of regular flex, W.Germany and Germany before '98.

So one can be impressed by a springy regular flex nib over the modern nail....and if so, then go W.Germany.

 

 

 

 

I don’t want to rehash our argument on this, so let’s just say that an m800 nib will not be as springy or soft as a springy nib on a 100N, which in turn will not be as springy as a flexible Waterman or Wahl.  I think we can agree on that much.  

 

I think we can also agree that due to differences in taste, writing style, prior experience and expectations, opinions will differ on the “springiness” of various nibs, including the ones under discussion.

[Bo Bo Olson]

re-hash deleted.

'91-97 = regular flex two chicks. Do have a 800/915 Hunter.**

Add-in, just thought the old 800' pre'97 had a tear drop nib tipping....

 

more rigid nibs......double ball tipping.

'98-2002 = still 2 chicks..... so one could have trouble dating a 800, in 2 chicks goes through two differing stiffnesses....same for the 400/600.

2003 one chick..................

 

 

** One of these days I'll have to do a head to head with my other ...W.Germany 800....won't prove more than what I already know, W. Germany is the slightest tad springier.

[Calabria]

My M800 two chick EF has a slight architect’s grind. It’s not springy but it lays down a pretty line that is less uniform as more recent nibs that don’t have that grind.

 

And yes, it has those cryptic marks that were standard for export nibs.

[Tokei-ski]

Thank you all very much for the comments and insights. I was not expecting anywhere near this kind of response. I must say that I am in much the same mindset as Kalessin when it comes to current market prices of many used pens. I am just shocked at how much prices have moved up on not only Pelikans, but all fountain pens in general. It seems like yet another hobby of mine that used to be cheap, fun and relaxing has been somehow invaded by speculators, flippers and people just looking to make money from pens. Unlike other hobbies and things that I collect, my pens get used daily, serve a purpose, and always bring joy in hand!

 

As suggested, I have set up some alerts, and will be keeping my eyes open, but I do not have much hope to find a Bourdeaux/Red M800 anywhere near $500~$600 as I was hoping. An alternative strategy might be for me to sell off a few duplicates at the new, higher prices, and then pony up and use those funds to buy a Bourdeaux/Red. This discussion has actually made me look at the overall used fountain pen market, and  take stock of what I own, and what might be sold to free up funds for "new" used pens for my collection.

 

Thank you all again, and please keep the comments/market commentary coming if you happen to see something offered for sale.

 

Kind regards

[sams]

These pens are about to get a lot easier to acquire:

 

https://thepelikansperch.com/2022/03/02/pelikan-m800-black-red-announced/