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I am really reconsidering the Lamy Safari


CyberGigi

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1 hour ago, david-p said:

 the safari (with a small s)

That's just marketing blah. It's some typografic bit to distinguish LAMY from safari. It's just style. Safari is the model's name therefore it has to be written with a capital letter at the beginning. (German pen, German name. Safari was integrated into German from the Swahili language. Same as in English. Nouns and names are written with a capital letter. This is the rule in German.) Or you have to put the LAMY in front of it - LAMY safari. One or the other.

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47 minutes ago, Astronymus said:

That's just marketing blah. It's some typografic bit to distinguish LAMY from safari. It's just style. Safari is the model's name therefore it has to be written with a capital letter at the beginning. (German pen, German name. Safari was integrated into German from the Swahili language. Same as in English. Nouns and names are written with a capital letter. This is the rule in German.) Or you have to put the LAMY in front of it - LAMY safari. One or the other.

 

Since Lamy pens are largely about style, and they are allowed to call them what they want, I take the name safari to be their declared preference, as it is written that way all over their website. In fact, the names of all their pens, with the exception of the 2000, are written there with a small initial.

 

p. p. e. e. cummings

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30 minutes ago, david-p said:

In fact, the names of all their pens, with the exception of the 2000, are written there with a small initial.

 

Not true.

808824435_NotallnamesofLamypenmodelsarestyledlowercase-only.png.6d2636d5f68884d310eb1f41f6dd7d51.png

 

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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I stand corrected in this; but it proves intention. It is unlikely that the majority are wrongly writtem.

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It is indeed a great pen with clever design. I like the fact the feed is hidden and the durability of the plastic. 

 

The nibs' wodth tho completely ruin it for me. 

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23 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder.  While it's certainly not to the caliber of my prettiest pen (a Morrison BHR ringtop with a sterling silver filigree overlay) or classiest looking pen (one of my 51 Aerometrics), it's still way better looking than some pens I've seen (the Montegrappa "Pirates of the Caribbean" or "Chaos" pens, as well as some of their other, um, "offerings", come to mind -- can't remember what another one was called but the video advertising it was sort of mind-boggling: it was something like "Angels and Demons" or "Heaven and Hell or some such).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

well, I did say it is a personal opinion, and you are certainly right on the fact there is no end to worst...

still not a must have for me, too many other nicer pens to have.
 

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57 minutes ago, david-p said:

I stand corrected in this; but it proves intention. It is unlikely that the majority are wrongly writtem.

It's intentionally written wrong. There is a whole art movement that stated all things should be written in lowercase letters. Because that's "stylish and innovative".

Problem is German doesn't work that way. Capital letters are important to distinguish nouns and verbs as some are written the same way - only difference is the first letter's case. In a whole text this must not be a problem per se as the context usualy tells the difference. But the rule is that nouns and names are to be written with a capital letter.

The name LAMY safari is an artificial structure. Marketing and art may take itself some liberties. If you call it LAMY safari, as this is its full model name, you may write it alltogether in lowercase letters. But if you shorten it to its "name" you will have to use a capital letter at the start. It's a rule in German language.

And the same would apply for English even more by the way. And here is why:

 

If you tell me: "The safari was shown in many different colours."

Then I will understand: "I put on a tropical hat and drove around Africa in a Land Rover high on LSD."

 

If you tell me: "The Safari was shown in many different colours."

Then I will understand: "They showed pens made of different coloured plastics."

 

Another thing. Many movies show their credits at the end in complete lowercase letters. Does that mean if you read such credits you'll always write an actors name in lowercase? "I saw this movie and daniel craig was very good in it." This lowercase thing is all art. Names are always capital at the beginning in a normal dialog. In English and German.

 

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4 hours ago, Astronymus said:

This lowercase thing is all art.

 

Not just art, but also a well known trick to establish brand identity. The problem with a brand having multiple models is that a brand can lose control of its identity because of one particularly popular product (e.g. -- Parker 51). A solution that Microsoft made famous in business circles was to use normal names for products that are generic and somewhat neutral; in Microsoft's case, this was "windows". By doing this, anyone who cares about writing clear language cannot just write "the <product name>" and be done with it, because it will introduce ambiguity. Thus, they will have a strong tendency and or need to insert the brand name before the product name, such as Microsoft Windows or LAMY safari. This ensures that the brand identity stays wrong even in the presence of overwhelming product recognition, thus drawing the users towards the brand's other products and increasing visibility. 

 

Thus, if one were to be fastidious about this, I strongly suspect that the only "correct" way to write it would be "LAMY safari" or some various thereof that includes both the brand and product "sub-name," since even a capitalized "Safari" is too ambiguous (particularly in English). 

 

Finally, it's an oversimplification of language to suggest that rules of capitalization such as you suggest, which has a corresponding rule in English, are both unbreakable and absolute. They are not. As an example, many academic publications require all lower-case for the publication of titles in references, violating the "capitalization" rule that is generally used elsewhere. There are also many cases of excessive capitalization used in various works. Such rules are good and generally correct to follow, but there are appropriate times and ways in which to break them. 

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As for the Lamy safari itself, I'm of a mind that it is iconic and definitely should be considered as a "must have" collection item if only to have one to compare against in a hobbyist sense. However, that said, from a pure capabilities and craftsmanship standpoint, I feel that the offerings from the Japanese makers in this segment are significantly more attractive, Platinum in particular, compared to the LAMY, with the sole and very large exception of the LAMY's uncontested nib modularity. The biggest weakness of the Japanese pens is their lack of solid entry level broad and stub offerings, even though they have some of the best broad and stub offerings in their higher end pens. Pens like the Diplomat or LAMY safari have more options in this category. However, in nib feel, consistency, flexibility, and writing quality, the Japanese are superior, IMO. Platinum in particular can be so readily converted to an eye-dropper and have such consistent nibs that I don't really see a good comparison in that respect. 

 

On the other hand, LAMY has a significant edge in terms of colors, and the triangular section is a definite plus, though I'd be tempted to include the Kakuno in the list of "must consider" if the triangular section is a big selling point. 

 

Given that the majority of people are F and M sort of folks, then the offerings from Platinum in this price range, to me, are extremely competitive with LAMY. However, for people like me who like a stub or broad nib...well, LAMY is up at the very top in this price range, IMO. 

 

But where the LAMY, IMO, clearly differentiates itself from the pack, is as a "first pen" option. I just don't know if you can beat it in that category. The triangular section might not be ideal for some people, but if you're moving to fountain pens, you can "encourage" a focus on penmanship through the triangular section, and it can help to make the writer more aware of the fountain pen nib and its optimal usage style. Furthermore, because someone just starting out won't have any idea of what type of pen they really enjoy, the LAMY safari gives them the chance to very easily and affordably play with different nibs while keeping all other variables exactly the same, thus making it much easier to appreciate the various differences in nib width and styles. I think it's easier to go from a one pen LAMY to getting another pen that you are rather confident you will like than with any other starter pen, because of the flexibility for experimentation. 

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6 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

Thus, if one were to be fastidious about this, I strongly suspect that the only "correct" way to write it would be "LAMY safari" or some various thereof that includes both the brand and product "sub-name," since even a capitalized "Safari" is too ambiguous (particularly in English). 

 

Finally, it's an oversimplification of language to suggest that rules of capitalization such as you suggest, which has a corresponding rule in English, are both unbreakable and absolute. They are not. As an example, many academic publications require all lower-case for the publication of titles in references, violating the "capitalization" rule that is generally used elsewhere. There are also many cases of excessive capitalization used in various works. Such rules are good and generally correct to follow, but there are appropriate times and ways in which to break them. 

 

Very well-stated. For the record, I have always been against authoritative douments like the Chicago Manual of Style and refuse to consult them.

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6 hours ago, arcfide said:

... from a pure capabilities and craftsmanship standpoint, I feel that the offerings from the Japanese makers in this segment are significantly more attractive, Platinum in particular, compared to the LAMY, with the sole and very large exception of the LAMY's uncontested nib modularity. The biggest weakness of the Japanese pens is their lack of solid entry level broad and stub offerings, even though they have some of the best broad and stub offerings in their higher end pens. Pens like the Diplomat or LAMY safari have more options in this category.

...

 

Given that the majority of people are F and M sort of folks, then the offerings from Platinum in this price range, to me, are extremely competitive with LAMY. However, for people like me who like a stub or broad nib...well, LAMY is up at the very top in this price range, IMO.

 

Agreed to all that.

 

I am also a B nib type of person, and avoid all pens that come without that option. I find that the width of a nib controls the size of my writing, and feel uncomfortable when a Fine nib constrains me to write in a small and spidery script. Thus, despite their claimed technological superiority, Platinum pens are not for me.

 

If LAMY studio is the style of writing the name designated by its creators, I am happy to use it, just as I was with the NeXT Computer. M$ Windows are another matter...

 

:) :) :)

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6 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

Not just art, but also a well known trick to establish brand identity. The problem with a brand having multiple models is that a brand can lose control of its identity because of one particularly popular product (e.g. -- Parker 51). A solution that Microsoft made famous in business circles was to use normal names for products that are generic and somewhat neutral; in Microsoft's case, this was "windows". By doing this, anyone who cares about writing clear language cannot just write "the <product name>" and be done with it, because it will introduce ambiguity. Thus, they will have a strong tendency and or need to insert the brand name before the product name, such as Microsoft Windows or LAMY safari. This ensures that the brand identity stays wrong even in the presence of overwhelming product recognition, thus drawing the users towards the brand's other products and increasing visibility. 

 

Thus, if one were to be fastidious about this, I strongly suspect that the only "correct" way to write it would be "LAMY safari" or some various thereof that includes both the brand and product "sub-name," since even a capitalized "Safari" is too ambiguous (particularly in English). 

 

Finally, it's an oversimplification of language to suggest that rules of capitalization such as you suggest, which has a corresponding rule in English, are both unbreakable and absolute. They are not. As an example, many academic publications require all lower-case for the publication of titles in references, violating the "capitalization" rule that is generally used elsewhere. There are also many cases of excessive capitalization used in various works. Such rules are good and generally correct to follow, but there are appropriate times and ways in which to break them. 

All true but that's not what we are talking about.

 

In flowing text it is common to use the proper use of of lower- and uppercase. This garantees optimal readability. Unpropper use of lower- and uppercase letters does disrupt the flow of reading. - If some academics do it otherwise it doesn't mean it is right. It's not their field of expertise. And academic circles often take liberties that are not to take when it comes to typography (and other things).

 

Even Lamy themselves use "Lamy" instead of "LAMY" on their own website in both English and German. Except when it comes to their model names, but then alway with a LAMY in front of it. This is a stretch marketing may take. They are follwing the rules apart from that. German is much more strict when it comes to orthographic rules.

 

Yet the same rule applies in English when it comes to brand names. In both languages brand names have to begin with a capital letter, even if the logo suggests otherwise. Adidas for example still has be written "Adidas". Except the brand name is a abreviation like CDC for Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (One exception is for the German authorities. They might write ADIDAS or Adidas.)

 

If you really have to write a brand in lowercase letters then you are obligates to accentuate it. Another trick is to put a © behind it to mark it as a brand name. So you may also write adidas or adidas©.

 

This is what you learn about proper design and copywriting as a professional.

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42 minutes ago, david-p said:

just as I was with the NeXT Computer. M$ Windows are another matter...

You are doing it right though. Indicating it as brand names in cursiv is the proper way. 💯points.

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2 hours ago, david-p said:

Thus, despite their claimed technological superiority, Platinum pens are not for me.

 

Not seeing why you would discount Platinum's Coarse and Music nibs just like that, on account of the line widths a nib can put down, but each to his own; this is after all a hobby, not a business-critical product selection exercise with which analysts are tasked.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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7 hours ago, Astronymus said:

Yet the same rule applies in English when it comes to brand names. In both languages brand names have to begin with a capital letter,

 

This is simply incorrect. A common rule doesn't make it absolute. 

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7 hours ago, Astronymus said:

And academic circles often take liberties that are not to take when it comes to typography (and other things).

 

So a large body of written English literature that is one of the few remaining areas where traditional typographical practices have strong hold should be disregarded entirely as "not relevant?" And additionally, you are claiming that typography is just "not a concern" to academics? 

 

8 hours ago, david-p said:

I have always been against authoritative douments like the Chicago Manual of Style and refuse to consult them.

 

I think that is probably taking it too far. Nothing is mandatory when it comes to using the Chicago Manual, but it is a trustworthy authority and moreover, it is very useful to pick some style or standard to stick to, whichever you pick. Some are better than others, IMO, but at least picking a style makes things consistent. 

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5 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Not seeing why you would discount Platinum's Coarse and Music nibs just like that

 

I think the point is that in context of lower-end pens, Platinum doesn't make their Coarse or Music nibs available. Platinum's Music nib is one of my favorites (and it's my EDC right now), but I can't get it at the same price as a Preppy, Prefounte, or Safari. 

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7 hours ago, Astronymus said:

Except when it comes to their model names, but then alway with a LAMY in front of it. This is a stretch marketing may take.

 

I would argue instead that they are establishing a normative standard for their own products (which is their purview) and that anyone deviating from that -- for example, shortening the name to just "Safari" -- might be considered to be taking more of a stretch. If you always use "LAMY safari" to refer to the pen, you're likely going to be considered completely safe. At any rate, I've contacted them to find out what they have to say on the matter. 

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3 minutes ago, arcfide said:

I think the point is that in context of lower-end pens, Platinum doesn't make their Coarse or Music nibs available.

 

While Lamy may be prepared to cater, at the Safari's price point, to a wide range of (dare I say) users whose requirements from a nib are not very exacting, by making a lot of different Z50 nib types and width grades available, personally I don't think it really ever manages to truly deliver an Extra Fine nib (in steel or gold, and ranging from the Z50 and Z52, etc. to the Z55 and Z57) for users who actually want an extra fine line, or fit-for-purpose Italic nibs for users who want to write in a formal italic hand.

 

Whereas Platinum is superior in catering to a wide range of requirements (including providing Soft Fine and Soft Medium nibs) in its product range, without going out of its way to spare the wallets of those whose requirements stand apart from the masses in its target market, in which the vast majority would want either an F or an M nib for everyday writing. Keep in mind that Parker only supply retailers with fountain pens fitted with F and M nibs, for just about all its models; anyone who wants a different nib will have to use Parker's nib exchange programme to get it after the initial purchase, never mind whether Parker actually has the capability to deliver a proper Fine Italic or Extra Extra Fine nib.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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47 minutes ago, arcfide said:

 

This is simply incorrect. A common rule doesn't make it absolute. 

iGnOrE the Rule then ANARCHY AT the GATEs why Not ALSO iGnOrE all Punctuations as well that will BE fun YEAH

In German - as I said - there are rules. Official rules. They are not common, they are official. You learn them at school. You have to follow them. You may do in your text what you want but it will be considered bad style.

 

41 minutes ago, arcfide said:

 

So a large body of written English literature that is one of the few remaining areas where traditional typographical practices have strong hold should be disregarded entirely as "not relevant?" And additionally, you are claiming that typography is just "not a concern" to academics?

If it ignores the rules or does make up its own don't take it as a standard. That's all I'm saying.

And I didn't say academics in general. Please don't insinuate things I did not say.

 

41 minutes ago, arcfide said:

I think that is probably taking it too far. Nothing is mandatory when it comes to using the Chicago Manual, but it is a trustworthy authority and moreover, it is very useful to pick some style or standard to stick to, whichever you pick. Some are better than others, IMO, but at least picking a style makes things consistent. 

The German Duden is basicly a mandatory standard. I don't know the Chicago Manual. I'll stick to this https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp which seems to agree to my points. I'm pretty sure these are the "common" rules.

 

32 minutes ago, arcfide said:

I would argue instead that they are establishing a normative standard for their own products (which is their purview) and that anyone deviating from that -- for example, shortening the name to just "Safari" -- might be considered to be taking more of a stretch. If you always use "LAMY safari" to refer to the pen, you're likely going to be considered completely safe. At any rate, I've contacted them to find out what they have to say on the matter. 

It's their marketing standard. That doesn't make it to a standard in orthography.

Let's hope the person who will answer you knows what he or she is talking about. 😏

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